The Biggest Failures in Consumer Audio/Video Electronics History

[highfigh]

@sholling
I don't see 4k being a failure at all. It's pretty much replaced 1080p or is in the process of doing so. Pretty much all decent tvs are now 4k, Netflix and Amazon both film their originals in 4k, and many films are now being shot 4k.

I think 8k is just stupid. There is no way in hell one could even benefit from it unless you're sitting in the front row of an IMAX theater. With glasses, I have 20/12 vision, at a distance of 9' on a 55" screen, without hdr, I can see a very small benefit going back and forth between 1080p and 4k. Sitting 6' away, which is the minimum recommended viewing angle for my screen size, I'm still unable to resolve the individual pixels. To do so requires me being 6" from the screen.

If 4k manages to exceed my ability to resolve more detail with better than perfect vision super close to the screen, I see no reason why we would ever need 8k.

As for broadcasts, I'm willing to bet cable goes the way of the dodo soon. At least in my generation, we don't use it. Streaming has largely replaced the need for it, and it has greater benefits too, such as a lack of commercials, better video and audio quality, and the ability to chose what to watch and when to watch it.

Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk

As far as 8K, 65"-85" TVs are a big part of the market now and they do show the differences, but I think most of the improvements are in dynamic range and color rather than sharpness, but that will obviously improve, too.

Yesterday, Foxconn announced that they have bought a 7 story building in downtown Milwaukee, which will house 600-700 people in what they called an 'innovation center'. It's interesting to note that there was almost no talk about them doing this prior to the announcement, but the County Exec didn't let the opportunity slip away, to sort of make it sound as if he was involved. He may have been and if he was, great. The Mayor was conspicuous in his absence- he's more concerned with getting his trolley up and running, even though the projections show that it won't make a dime of profit in the first year- it's a good thing the Potawotomi Casino fired up for $12M. Anyway, one of the main things on the agenda for the new building is 8K and 5G. In Milwaukee. Imagine that!

One thing I hope FoxConn does is dump a bunch of money into the local colleges that teach STEM and also, it would be a huge help if they involve themselves in the Public Schools, many of which are performing very poorly.

 

[lsiberian]

Perhaps, but there will have to be a whole lot more and better legally supplied content. In my opinion 4K and streaming need each other. 4K TV manufacturers and 4K owners need more and better 4K content to get the most out of their new toys. At the same time Amazon, Netflix, Youtube, etc need more and better 4K content to pull eyes away from cable-only networks like HBO and Showtime. So far HBO and Showtime aren't feeling threatened enough to start producing 4K content for eventual streaming.

Actually HBO and Showtime aren't cable only anymore.

 

[Verdinut]

What types of issues do you have?
The only problem I have had HDMI is many of the cables do not make a positive physical connection (snap into place) and they tend to come loose more frequently than other cables if I am shifting stuff around behind the AVR/BD.

If Neutrik had been involved in the development of the HDMI interconnection, we could have had a locking type plug similar to the XLR format.

Designers lack insight at times!

Cheers,

 

[highfigh]

If Neutrik had been involved in the development of the HDMI interconnection, we could have had a locking type plug similar to the XLR format.

Designers lack insight at times!

Cheers,

On another forum, for Custom Integrators, someone posted a thread that was basically titled "If you hate HDMI, this is one of the guys who's responsible" and it got salty, in a hurry. Then, one of the members, who is the editor of a couple of Consumer Electronics industry magazines chimed in, stating that she knows him and considers him to be a friend. We unloaded on her and at one point, she wrote that she's proud of his accomplishment, which only added fuel to the fire.

They used to make a retainer that screwed to the rear of the equipment, but nobody used them and there was no standard for the cable ends, so they stopped making them. You know the single screw just above each HDMI port? Yeah, that was supposed to be used for this.

From a structural standpoint, this is about as bad as it can be- a thin, wide, shallow end that is attached to stiff cable that's frequency pushed down, up and to the sides will not handle the stress and strain. The fact that so many cables have physically/mechanically failed is proof of this. If it had been round and had some kind of retainer clip, it could be pushed in any direction without failure (unless it was treated really badly) and as long as the plug/port are indexed, it would have been no problem.

 

[sholling]

Actually HBO and Showtime aren't cable only anymore.

I'm aware that both (and Disney) are dipping their toes into subscription streaming but if they were serious they'd start shooting and streaming in 4K. Since the "killer app" for streaming is likely to be 4K rather than price (cord-cutting is still a niche market) it's pretty obvious that for now they aren't taking streaming all that seriously.

 

[MR.MAGOO]

have electrostatic speakers really grabbed the consumer market like traditional speakers, and couldn't they be considered a (sort of) failure?

 

[highfigh]

I'm aware that both (and Disney) are dipping their toes into subscription streaming but if they were serious they'd start shooting and streaming in 4K. Since the "killer app" for streaming is likely to be 4K rather than price (cord-cutting is still a niche market) it's pretty obvious that for now they aren't taking streaming all that seriously.

Netflix streams in 4k, if the viewer has a streaming box that can produce it.

It's going to happen- they force this stuff on us all the time and there's nothing we can do to stop them.

 

[sholling]

Netflix streams in 4k, if the viewer has a streaming box that can produce it.

It's going to happen- they force this stuff on us all the time and there's nothing we can do to stop them.

Netflix, Amazon Prime, and Youtube all offer some 4K content. NVIDIA's Shield TV STB supports 4K and HDR. In addition, some newer high-end Rokus and Fire TVs, as well as the apps built into many 4K TVs are 4K capable and in some cases HDR capable. HBO and Showtime's streaming services and every US cable company that I'm aware of are, for now, staying with 1080P. In my opinion we'll know that 4K is the future when premium content providers like HBO start streaming or at least filming in 4K.

 

[highfigh]

Netflix, Amazon Prime, and Youtube all offer some 4K content. NVIDIA's Shield TV STB supports 4K and HDR. In addition, some newer high-end Rokus and Fire TVs, as well as the apps built into many 4K TVs are 4K capable and in some cases HDR capable. HBO and Showtime's streaming services and every US cable company that I'm aware of are, for now, staying with 1080P. In my opinion we'll know that 4K is the future when premium content providers like HBO start streaming or at least filming in 4K.

I think they're in a 'cart before horse' position- the US internet is too slow and limited to provide that resolution for most people and in MKE, Spectrum only recently increased their base speed to 100Mbps., with a max of 300Mbps for most areas. ATT has been replacing copper with fiber from the last mile, but they haven't brought it to the curb in most areas. Also, the US has huge expanses of little/no internet or no high speed internet, so they need to work on that, too.

They have been filming in 4K, they just can't send it.

 

[Auditor55]

As far as 8K, 65"-85" TVs are a big part of the market now and they do show the differences, but I think most of the improvements are in dynamic range and color rather than sharpness, but that will obviously improve, too.

Yesterday, Foxconn announced that they have bought a 7 story building in downtown Milwaukee, which will house 600-700 people in what they called an 'innovation center'. It's interesting to note that there was almost no talk about them doing this prior to the announcement, but the County Exec didn't let the opportunity slip away, to sort of make it sound as if he was involved. He may have been and if he was, great. The Mayor was conspicuous in his absence- he's more concerned with getting his trolley up and running, even though the projections show that it won't make a dime of profit in the first year- it's a good thing the Potawotomi Casino fired up for $12M. Anyway, one of the main things on the agenda for the new building is 8K and 5G. In Milwaukee. Imagine that!

One thing I hope FoxConn does is dump a bunch of money into the local colleges that teach STEM and also, it would be a huge help if they involve themselves in the Public Schools, many of which are performing very poorly.

There is absolutely no proof that any human being can see 8K resolution on a 65 inch set. That's a ridiculous and totally false claim. Who are these people reporting that can see the difference 8K resolution makes on a 65 inch set?

 

[highfigh]

There is absolutely no proof that any human being can see 8K resolution on a 65 inch set. That's a ridiculous and totally false claim. Who are these people reporting that can see the difference 8K resolution makes on a 65 inch set?

Go somewhere and compare from a short distance. Make sure it's someplace other than Best Buy, so you can see a good source and make sure it has lots of motion, diagonals and other shapes.

Did you see a difference between 1080, 2K and 4K?

 

[mp54]

Not a failure at all, but since it was discussed, regular cassettes were "good enough" for casual listening. They were great for portability, moving your music to your car, and being able to easily record your mix from records, or other sources. Now, with thumb drives and USB ports in cars, there's no need for that.

I'm an old analog guy, but never understood the "hi fi" aspect of cassettes. I've read that with Dolby S and metal tape, one could approach open reel fidelity. From my personal experience, a decent consumer oriented quarter track open reel deck, such as the Pioneer RT 701 at 7ips using Maxell UD with no Dolby sounded better than high end Nakamichi, Tandberg, or Revox decks using Dolby B (or C) and metal tape, especially on dynamic material where you could routinely record peaks 3-5 dB higher than 0. I used a ReVox B77 until it wore out... by then the cost to service it was ridiculous so it went to the yard sale.

Interestingly, when Mark "I never met a preamp that was too expensive" Levinson opened his Red Rose Music stores, he contemplated selling refurbished Nakamichi 1000 and 700 decks as a means to, presumably, sell prerecorded cassette copies of master tapes he recorded on his modified Studer A-80 deck. Right after I read that is when the "Mark Levinson magic" faded for me. None of what he was talking about had any relation to what I ever heard.

Finally, I see that there is now an American company (NAC) manufacturing chrome cassettes. 10 for 50 dollars. Seems a reasonable price. I wish them well. Thinking about it, I'd almost buy a refurbished deck of decent quality in order to relive the old days. Why not? For casual listening...

 

[sholling]

Go somewhere and compare from a short distance. Make sure it's someplace other than Best Buy, so you can see a good source and make sure it has lots of motion, diagonals and other shapes.

Did you see a difference between 1080, 2K and 4K?

I suspect he's referring to noticable differences at normal viewing distances. It wasn't all that long ago that many on here were arguing that at normal living room viewing distances that most people couldn't tell 720 from 1080. The biggest differences that I see between my old 1080P and my new 4K have more to do with LCD vs OLED and non-HDR vs HDR.

I can see an eventual need for for-real streamed 8K once 90" and larger sets start getting super common (20% market penetration) but until then and until half of US homes have the bandwidth to support at least 4 8K streams it just does not make sense for content providers to skip 4K and go right to 8K streaming. What does make sense for now is to build sets over 85 or 100" as 8K and use built-in upconversion.

 

[highfigh]

I suspect he's referring to noticable differences at normal viewing distances. It wasn't all that long ago that many on here were arguing that at normal living room viewing distances that most people couldn't tell 720 from 1080. The biggest differences that I see between my old 1080P and my new 4K have more to do with LCD vs OLED and non-HDR vs HDR.

I can see an eventual need for for-real streamed 8K once 90" and larger sets start getting super common (20% market penetration) but until then and until half of US homes have the bandwidth to support at least 4 8K streams it just does not make sense for content providers to skip 4K and go right to 8K streaming. What does make sense for now is to build sets over 85 or 100" as 8K and use built-in upconversion.

This is a large part of what I have come to hate about the AV industry- they used to introduce their newest and greatest innovations in commercial and industrial markets, which allowed the technology to trickle down to the consumer level and now, the main result is people buying new equipment piece by piece and finding that some of it isn't compatible, including the cables. That's ridiculous! If they can't make new displays, AVRs and processors backward-compatible with cables and source devices, they should sell the new stuff as a system. If someone buys a new AVR, BD player or streaming box that pass 4K/HDR/10 bit video, it's a waste of money because the display can't use it and it won't work. Same goes for replacing a BD player with 4K/HDR on a system that's ten years old- it's doesn't work unless the resolution of the BD player is dumbed down to 1080p and all of the new stuff is turned off- sometimes it's the equipment, often it's the cables. Redmere cables from 2014 don't work with 4K.

EXACTLY! Let the TV do the conversion!

 

[sholling]

This is a large part of what I have come to hate about the AV industry- they used to introduce their newest and greatest innovations in commercial and industrial markets, which allowed the technology to trickle down to the consumer level and now, the main result is people buying new equipment piece by piece and finding that some of it isn't compatible, including the cables. That's ridiculous! If they can't make new displays, AVRs and processors backward-compatible with cables and source devices, they should sell the new stuff as a system. If someone buys a new AVR, BD player or streaming box that pass 4K/HDR/10 bit video, it's a waste of money because the display can't use it and it won't work. Same goes for replacing a BD player with 4K/HDR on a system that's ten years old- it's doesn't work unless the resolution of the BD player is dumbed down to 1080p and all of the new stuff is turned off- sometimes it's the equipment, often it's the cables. Redmere cables from 2014 don't work with 4K.

With respect, I just can't agree. All in one systems are either A) way too expensive for most people to swallow all at once or B) way too dumbed down to keep the price low (see HTIB receiver/speaker packages) and all one brand to keep profits high, or C) unnecessary.

I did my upgrade as I could afford to starting with a 4K HDR ready Shield TV (bought on sale) so I'd have content when I finally pulled the trigger on the TV. After buying the TV I waited for a super sale to buy a receiver, the same for my 4K BD player. It's the only way I could afford a great AV system. Besides I really don't want (for example) a Samsung TV bundled with a Samsung BD player bundled with a Samsung receiver driving Samsung speakers.

Finally, modern smart TVs make buying new stuff optional. For example the streaming apps included in my new LG TV are pretty darned good, plenty good enough for most buyers, and their sound can be sent to an existing 1080P compatible receiver via ARC. Even the remote (via ARC is plenty powerful enough to be all that most customers need. That's plenty good enough for most customers - at least for a couple of years. We on Audioholics aren't most people and want to pick and choose best of breed or near best of breed (budgets strike again) components.

What I would like to see, and where I think we agree, is new 4K TVs should come bundled with one 4K ready ARC enabled HDMI cable, and that new 4K BD players come bundled with a 4K ready HDMI cable (mine did), and that 4K streaming boxes come with a 4K ready HDMI cable. The problem there is that you wind up paying for cables that are either too long or too short when you buy bundles.

 

[highfigh]

With respect, I just can't agree. All in one systems are either A) way too expensive for most people to swallow all at once or B) way too dumbed down to keep the price low (see HTIB receiver/speaker packages) and all one brand to keep profits high, or C) unnecessary.

I did my upgrade as I could afford to starting with a 4K HDR ready Shield TV (bought on sale) so I'd have content when I finally pulled the trigger on the TV. After buying the TV I waited for a super sale to buy a receiver, the same for my 4K BD player. It's the only way I could afford a great AV system. Besides I really don't want (for example) a Samsung TV bundled with a Samsung BD player bundled with a Samsung receiver driving Samsung speakers.

Finally, modern smart TVs make buying new stuff optional. For example the streaming apps included in my new LG TV are pretty darned good, plenty good enough for most buyers, and their sound can be sent to an existing 1080P compatible receiver via ARC. Even the remote (via ARC is plenty powerful enough to be all that most customers need. That's plenty good enough for most customers - at least for a couple of years. We on Audioholics aren't most people and want to pick and choose best of breed or near best of breed (budgets strike again) components.

What I would like to see, and where I think we agree, is new 4K TVs should come bundled with one 4K ready ARC enabled HDMI cable, and that new 4K BD players come bundled with a 4K ready HDMI cable (mine did), and that 4K streaming boxes come with a 4K ready HDMI cable. The problem there is that you wind up paying for cables that are either too long or too short when you buy bundles.

I didn't mean the system should be like the ones in the late-'70s and into the '80s- one brand, to get people to buy more of that brand. I would like to see systems that are bundled so everything is compatible. Around 2011, systems that had a Panasonic BD player, Denon or some other AVRs and Samsung or Panasonic TVs didn't play well together but the bad actors weren't limited to these few.

If they provide the cables, how will they know the correct length?

 

[sholling]

If they provide the cables, how will they know the correct length?

I just said that.

Anyway, 6ft would probably be plenty for 80% of customers. It's the length that Sony bundled with my 4K BD player.

BTW, one reason that I do not want integrators or retailers putting together TV/cable bundles is that they will invariably bundle Monster HDMI cables or Monster Home Theater Kits or the equivalent.

 

[killdozzer]

Late for the party so didn't really go through all six pages, but I've read many and see you mostly disagree on this failure/non-failure on a different merit, which makes it a matter of preference.

If I understood correctly the criteria was whether something took from the current front runner of the time, as this was the dream of almost all patent holders and manufacturers who decided to go with the patent into production.

This would mean that if DAT had to settle for studios while trying to take over from other types of cassettes, it was a failure. It did work and did so well, but for one reason or another it didn't become the "vinyl of its time".

As for @gene 's article goes, I was mostly interested to see superior patents not catching on, because I remember another debate I had with another member here who firmly poised that manufacturer always has consumers best interest at heart. In my universe, merely repeating this notion sounds so naive I'm having hard time typing it.

 

[sterling shoote]

Late for the party so didn't really go through all six pages, but I've read many and see you mostly disagree on this failure/non-failure on a different merit, which makes it a matter of preference.

If I understood correctly the criteria was whether something took from the current front runner of the time, as this was the dream of almost all patent holders and manufacturers who decided to go with the patent into production.

This would mean that if DAT had to settle for studios while trying to take over from other types of cassettes, it was a failure. It did work and did so well, but for one reason or another it didn't become the "vinyl of its time".

As for @gene 's article goes, I was mostly interested to see superior patents not catching on, because I remember another debate I had with another member here who firmly poised that manufacturer always has consumers best interest at heart. In my universe, merely repeating this notion sounds so naive I'm having hard time typing it.

DAT was indeed a consumer failure; but, it was seen as an ideal replacement for reel to reel for broadcast post production; and thus, Sony delivered the PCM-7000 Digital Audio Tape Recorders and Edit Controllers, which ruled in their world until computer audio and emailing of computer audio became more useful in context to deadlines. Interestingly enough, the demise of DAT had absolutely nothing to do with it being superseded by higher quality, where still to this day it competes in sound quality with any later recording technology. What killed DAT was simply MP3 and the ability to email it, period.

 

[killdozzer]

Exactly my point. A very good solution can be a failure in one aspect or another and I believe the article covered those and even stated so with H-PAS. If your goal is to win marathon, but you never do and you only win 400 meters you're still a marathon failure and your 400 meters gold doesn't change that fact. To try and make it even more clear, if DAT only intended to be studio equipment or only intended to be profi equipment, I would agree that it shouldn't be deemed as failure. You can't blame a sandwich for not being soup unless it wanted to be a soup.