Subwoofer Questions

[Pedantic]

I think if you can diy something, that could be great. There are plenty of ID companies that build great subs, and most would be better than a 10” klipsch, and offer better value. Linearity is not something they’re known for. I would definitely look at replacing it. Either ID or diy.

I'm realizing as I try to figure this out that I've jumped down a major rabbit hole with the home audio stuff. I'm going to box up the Klipsch and return it.

As far as a DIY sub, I spent some time last night looking what Parts Express has to offer. The Dayton Audio stuff is attractive as I'd like to keep the amp and driver to under $250 combined. Hopefully can piece something decent together with that budget.

 

[shadyJ]

As far as a DIY sub, I spent some time last night looking what Parts Express has to offer. The Dayton Audio stuff is attractive as I'd like to keep the amp and driver to under $250 combined. Hopefully can piece something decent together with that budget.

$250 combined for amp and driver? That is a tall order. Here is an idea for some major bang-for-the-buck: one of these and two of these. You could put both those drivers in one enclosure or put them in separate cabinets. It's a bit over your $250 budget but that would really rock you.

 

[Pedantic]

$250 combined for amp and driver? That is a tall order. Here is an idea for some major bang-for-the-buck: one of these and two of these. You could put both those drivers in one enclosure or put them in separate cabinets. It's a bit over your $250 budget but that would really rock you.[/QUOTE

Is there an advantage to an amp like Behringer (in the link) versus a plate amp? That setup definitely seems like it would rock. There's zero chance my wife would go for that, though. It would just take up too much space. I suppose with that amp I could build a single 12 or 15 and add a second later. Does that amp just stack on an avr? I didn't see dimensions for it.

 

[shadyJ]

Is there an advantage to an amp like Behringer (in the link) versus a plate amp? That setup definitely seems like it would rock. There's zero chance my wife would go for that, though. It would just take up too much space. I suppose with that amp I could build a single 12 or 15 and add a second later. Does that amp just stack on an avr? I didn't see dimensions for it.

The advantage to an outboard amplifier like that behringer is that it saves on woodwork, so there is less cutting involved and that makes for a simpler construction. It is also quite a bit less expensive than a comparable plate amplifier, and what's more, it is easier to keep cool. The only disadvantage is that now you have to put it somewhere since it is not attached to the subwoofer cabinet.

You would not want to put that amp on top of an AVR, in fact you do not want to put anything on top of an AVR. That AVR needs ventilation, and blocking the AVR vents with a warm amplifier is the last thing you want to do. You can just place that amp on another shelf and it will be fine. Just make sure it has some ventilation room.

If those 15"s are too big for you, here is an idea, get four of these Tymphany 10"s (on sale now for 50 a pop, but that sale ends tomorrow). you can string 2 of those per channel on the Berhinger amp since they are 8 ohm drivers. You can make two boxes that each have two drivers in them. That amp can run those 4 tens with no problem.

 

[Pedantic]

The advantage to an outboard amplifier like that behringer is that it saves on woodwork, so there is less cutting involved and that makes for a simpler construction. It is also quite a bit less expensive than a comparable plate amplifier, and what's more, it is easier to keep cool. The only disadvantage is that now you have to put it somewhere since it is not attached to the subwoofer cabinet.

You would not want to put that amp on top of an AVR, in fact you do not want to put anything on top of an AVR. That AVR needs ventilation, and blocking the AVR vents with a warm amplifier is the last thing you want to do. You can just place that amp on another shelf and it will be fine. Just make sure it has some ventilation room.

If those 15"s are too big for you, here is an idea, get four of these Tymphany 10"s (on sale now for 50 a pop, but that sale ends tomorrow). you can string 2 of those per channel on the Berhinger amp since they are 8 ohm drivers. You can make two boxes that each have two drivers in them. That amp can run those 4 tens with no problem.

Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense. Also, thanks for the heads up on the avr. It seems like there are some definite advantages with the outboard amp setup.

 

[lovinthehd]

The economy comes in part by simply having that one amp cover two subs. I use external amps on my builds, I use Crown XLS amps for the quiet fans. Behringers can be a bit noisy, altho if you need dsp, the Crown iNuke DSP series amps (not the plain NU1000 Shady linked) are cost effective (Crown's amps with similar dsp can get kinda pricey, a miniDSP 2x4 is a nice way to add dsp to a Crown XLS).

OTOH that JBL is due to arrive and see what that does for you before diving into the diy rabbit hole...

 

[Pedantic]

The economy comes in part by simply having that one amp cover two subs. I use external amps on my builds, I use Crown XLS amps for the quiet fans. Behringers can be a bit noisy, altho if you need dsp, the Crown iNuke DSP series amps (not the plain NU1000 Shady linked) are cost effective (Crown's amps with similar dsp can get kinda pricey, a miniDSP 2x4 is a nice way to add dsp to a Crown XLS).

OTOH that JBL is due to arrive and see what that does for you before diving into the diy rabbit hole...

That makes plenty of sense. It seems like price will add up quickly. I've only taken a cursory look at some of the diy options.

As for the JBL, the UPS guy wasn't too kind to it. It literally arrived in pieces...

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Wow that’s ridiculous. It’s not the subs fault he has to work at ups. Man...
Curious how the jbl works for you vs the klipsch. I had a jbl pb12 awhile back. It was a good enough sub until the amps input stage failed. It worked out though when I replaced it with my first SVS pc 12plus. Wow, not even in the same league.
I feel like the rabbit hole is like Chinese handcuffs. Soooo easy to keep going deeper, but nearly impossible to get out.

 

[Pedantic]

Wow that’s ridiculous. It’s not the subs fault he has to work at ups. Man...
Curious how the jbl works for you vs the klipsch. I had a jbl pb12 awhile back. It was a good enough sub until the amps input stage failed. It worked out though when I replaced it with my first SVS pc 12plus. Wow, not even in the same league.
I feel like the rabbit hole is like Chinese handcuffs. Soooo easy to keep going deeper, but nearly impossible to get out.

Seriously! I couldn't believe it. The outside of the box was absolutely destroyed. They didn't even bring it to the door. It was left in the middle of my driveway.

I was hoping to get a sense of how ported and sealed subs compare. I want the subwoofer to sound tight and accurate.

I've been home with my sick kid this week and have managed to fall right into the rabbit hole. The A/V stuff plays into my ocd tendencies perfectly. Anyway, I think I am leaning towards building my own using an external amp and single 12". Then, if need be, adding a second should be relatively straight forward...it seems?

How are the external amps connected to the avr? Is it rca?

 

[lovinthehd]

Man that thing was indeed destroyed! Partly JBL's/seller's fault in providing packing not suitable for this kind of shipment as a guess (logistics my old field, and some of my JBL speakers were lucky to arrive in one piece by UPS). Hope you get that resolved satisfactorily.

You'd run an appropriate cable between avr/amp, the Behringers you'd need an rca to 1/4" or rca to XLR; the Crown XLS can accept rca (or 1/4" or XLR). I'd recommend Neutrik speakon connectors for the amp to sub cable. If the amp has sufficient power on each channel should be no problem to add a second sub later.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Seriously! I couldn't believe it. The outside of the box was absolutely destroyed. They didn't even bring it to the door. It was left in the middle of my driveway.

I was hoping to get a sense of how ported and sealed subs compare. I want the subwoofer to sound tight and accurate.

I've been home with my sick kid this week and have managed to fall right into the rabbit hole. The A/V stuff plays into my ocd tendencies perfectly. Anyway, I think I am leaning towards building my own using an external amp and single 12". Then, if need be, adding a second should be relatively straight forward...it seems?

How are the external amps connected to the avr? Is it rca?

Some use rca. My amp for my mains only has 1/4” t/s, so I have an rca to 1/4” cable. Pretty easy. Personally I am a fan of ported subs, and while they are larger, the juice IS worth the squeeze.

I think I would have some words with my ups guy. That’s bull$hit.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... They didn't even bring it to the door. It was left in the middle of my driveway.

...

You should have taken a picture of it in the middle of your driveway and post it all over the web.
Shameful behavior of UPS part.

 

[Pedantic]

You should have taken a picture of it in the middle of your driveway and post it all over the web.
Shameful behavior of UPS part.

Yup. That was definitely a first for me. Fortunately, it was an Amazon purchase and setting up a return was not issue.

I'll probably place an order tomorrow for a driver and amp. I'm going to entertain a couple of other of the shelf options as well. There's a sale on a Definitive Technologies Pro Sub 1000 and an Outlaw M8.

Hopefully UPS will cooperate....

 

[lovinthehd]

Yup. That was definitely a first for me. Fortunately, it was an Amazon purchase and setting up a return was not issue.

I'll probably place an order tomorrow for a driver and amp. I'm going to entertain a couple of other of the shelf options as well. There's a sale on a Definitive Technologies Pro Sub 1000 and an Outlaw M8.

Hopefully UPS will cooperate....

I'd take the M8 over anything DefTec fwiw and the M8 doesn't appeal either

 

[Pedantic]

I'd take the M8 over anything DefTec fwiw and the M8 doesn't appeal either

Thanks for that. I appreciate it. Save me a few steps.

 

[Pedantic]

I spent some time messing around the Klipsch this morning. A new sub location and turning off surround for music playback as well as adjusting the sub to -4 db and crossover on the towers down to 60hz seemed to really help overall quality.

Even though it is sounding quite a bit better, it really doesn't add much on the low end. It's still kind of sloppy sounding on bass heavy tracks like Black Keys type rock.

I used WinISD to get a sense of what to expect from this guy in a sealed enclosure. To those of you with experience, does this look about right?

Thanks in advance. I appreciate all the help.

 

[lovinthehd]

If I'm reading that volume right as 100 liters, or about 3.5 cuft, it looks similar to what PE has for a box of 2.88 cuft (f3 of 37hz) so it looks like you're on track there.

 

[Pedantic]

If I'm reading that volume right as 100 liters, or about 3.5 cuft, it looks similar to what PE has for a box of 2.88 cuft (f3 of 37hz) so it looks like you're on track there.

Am I correct to assume that the lower the F3 the better and that keeping qtc near .707 optimizes overall performance?

 

[lovinthehd]

Am I correct to assume that the lower the F3 the better and that keeping qtc near .707 optimizes overall performance?

A low f3 is a good thing, and many aim at .707, here's a discussion of such in this article http://www.audioholics.com/diy-audio/diy-sealed-subwoofer and discussed in this thread https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/qtc-value-for-sealed-enclosures.59937/

 

[Pedantic]

A low f3 is a good thing, and many aim at .707, here's a discussion of such in this article http://www.audioholics.com/diy-audio/diy-sealed-subwoofer and discussed in this thread https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/qtc-value-for-sealed-enclosures.59937/

Thanks! You're apparently much better at using the search function than I. Both threads were very helpful.