Home audio design - requesting feedback on first time whole home set up

[Big Papa]

Good Morning!

Been a follower of the forum for a while now, but I have finally given myself a project that is worthy of some feedback from the experts on here before I actually implement. The past few years I have pieced systems together with the knowledge of the group so thanks to those of you who have posted your questions as they do not go unused.

The design I am trying to implement is pretty straight forward in that I want multiple zones not dependent on physical volume knobs/controls, but mini android or ios devices that use an app to control zone inputs with volume (my wife's request...I did a fist pump when she asked that). This is a very common post I know but everyone has a little different set up…

A common way I have noticed to control modern through home audio systems would be to use a network based system that allows you to employ an app on your phone or tablet to name each zone and control each zones source, volume, tone and on/off (free app is the key). Two common systems I have found built into surround receivers which allows me to distribute HDMI connected A/V source would be MusicCast by Yamaha and HEOS by Denon/Marantz (yes I read about sonos for you sonos diehards).

**I am also open to designing something with a Russound D850 Multi Channel Amp then bus in the denon avr receiver.

One thing I have read on the Benefit of HEOS is that it tends to work a little more seamlessly and is easier to setup on your network. I have also read reviews of users who dog the system, but it looked like their errors were closely related to end user not knowing technology as well as a few firmware upgrades needed...hopefully I gathered that correctly.

There will be a total of 6 zones throughout the main level of our house with one of the zones being a 5.1 which I would like to use a Denon AVR receiver for this zone (brand I know, understand, trust and have always used in the past). Upstairs will be 2 bed, den and office…do not want to integrate right now but might in the future so just call out…seems easy if I use HEOS OR piggy back another russound multi channel amp.

Current Zones to be established:

1) Den (5.1 setup with TV - DENON AVR)
2) Dining room
3) Kitchen
4) Screened Porch (with TV)
5) Bathroom
6) Bedroom (TBD – will run cable/speaker wire while the entire house is bare to the studs)

Device for Den: Denon AVR-X3400H OR Denon AVR-X4300H

The personal debate between the two is:
1) can I use the x4300h to not only control our den 5.1, but also our dining room and porch using the HDMI matrix switch option (second source with tv is porch)? The thought process is I can watch tv on the porch or in the den without having to buy a second AVR to control and connect to HEOS system.
2) if not, just go with 3400H with the plan for future expansion to Dolby Atmos since it also has HEOS integrated and is a little cheaper. Then buy 2.1 heos amp for porch speakers...

If scenario 1 does NOT fly then I will use Denon HEOS 2.1 amp to run dining room/kitchen with future expansion to single out both, and run a HEOS 2.1 in bathroom.

If scenario 1 works then the kitchen/bathroom I would use a HEOS Amp to power the zone as one now and will buy another amp to separate the two down the road. I have seen people power 4 speakers off of one HEOS Amp in other threads if maintained correctly.

Attached is a diagram I built out to visualize the set up. Also, all equipment will be centrally located in a closet on the second floor. I have taken string and 'guesstimated' what I need then buffered 15% for mistakes (learned that on here) in regards to speaker wire and Ethernet. Closet is currently under construction as we are adding a second floor.

Other areas I am requesting feedback from the group are as follows:

1) Should I go ahead and wire for volume controls to each location that would be a zone? Planning on using POE to power tablets. assuming yes...
2) Do any of you recommend using a different set up to control this 6 zone approach?
3) Not looking for audiophile level in ceiling speakers for kitchen, dining room, and bathroom so suggestions on that would be great as I am still investigating. Budget below. We do get pretty wild when the blanton's bourbon starts to flow during games/dinner parties.
4) Polk doesn’t have the best sub in my opinion. What do you guys recommend that would pair with the below set up for 5.1? Roughly 500-600 budget on sub. Been looking at a bunch of different posts about subs as there are thousands. just going to make a decision soon because my brain is starting to melt.
5) Finally, suggestions on outdoor speakers that aren’t muffled when watching sports or movies but has a little ‘kick’ to ‘em per se.

I have an old Denon Avr-E400 powering TSi 400 floor standing with a CS20 center channel, surround BR/BL, old polk sub set up now, but at my new house I am being volun-told that they (floorstanding/center channel) have to GO…main reason behind starting from scratch to set up in wall/ceiling speakers for 5.1. Might utilize E400 in bedroom but wouldn't be tied into whole house if I used HEOS or would have to buy ANOTHER wireless HEOS connector that's not the amp. This crapola starts to get expensive with the mulitple amps...

What I am looking at for the 5.1 to start off:
- AVR-X3400H or X4300H
- Polk Audio 265RT for FR/FL
- Polk Audio 255C-RT Center
- Still looking into surrounds
- Looking for advice on sub that complements above in wall FL/C/FR

Equipment to connect to whole house audio/5.1 system:
- Cable boxes
- Blu-ray player
- Turntable (this is my baby)
- Apple TV
- Game console
- iPad mini or I have about 6 android tablets not being used from work (Galaxy Tab S2s)

Budget on in ceiling speakers for whole house:
- 200-300 per room for dining room/kitchen/porch
- 100-150 for master bath. Don’t really care here. I’d be fine with some polk RC80i in here or smaller. Might even stick just a HEOS speaker somewhere…

Budget on whole house amp if HEOS isnt the play:
- 1500-2000

Thanks in advance for reading this long, duplicated post, and please, don’t slaughter me on my first post too much…

Cheers – Big PAPA



-- If the wheel starts spinning, so do I…

 

[2channel lover]

You've got a nice sized project here. @BMXTRIX I think is the man that can help you out here.

My input...The A8 emotiva multi-zone amp is what I ended up with....by my count you have 5 pairs of speakers in your layout, one too many for this amp I think...but I think you are a bit heavy in the bath and bedroom.

One thing to note...much like your design, I have pairs of speakers in a each room except the master where I decided 1 speaker will suffice...when you run in stereo...if you're moving around in the room, it doesn't sound quite the same as being in the sweet spot so don't be afraid to run mono.

I have the Marantz app and the Oppo app for ipad...the Marantz gives me source, on/off, and volume control for the main zone, Z2, and Z3. Since my Z2 covers 2 rooms, I added a manual on/off, volume control for Z2.

I'm a big wire guy so if you have the opportunity to go wired...that would be my choice.

 

[TheWarrior]

I would likewise add @DigitalDawn to the list of consultants.

I just installed a set of Triad Inwall Bronze speakers (review coming!). They include their own sealed enclosure which really simplifies installation and limits the potential for a critter to create a new connection on the crossover.

But I would also say to start with the dedicated home theater equipment, first. You're pushing the limits on what an AVR can do for multiple zones, and other than watching the same show in the den or patio, you may be better off using a distribution amp for the rest.

Then as 2channel pointed out, stereo speakers are not necessary to get music coming out of every room. And I have to agree on the advantages of a wired connection - no hassles!

 

[highfigh]

What do you mean by "Planning on using POE to power tablets."? Tablets don't run on POE, access points, cameras and some other devices do, but POE is very limited in power.

How many of these zones do you want to adjust, individually? If some will be paired, it's easier, but if you want to adjust the level in all of them separately, it's somewhat more expensive, but still doable if you're willing to use a multi-channel amp that has a less recognizable name but the same design.

MusicCast and HEOS are very similar in how they connect to the network, operate and in their options. I have a MusicCAst WXC-50 (their version of the Sonos Connect or HEOS Link) and it works great. My iPhone has occasionally lost contact with it, but if I close the app and restart, it works- I have ha the same issue on a HEOS system and I suspect that it was due to my phone needing an iOS update.

If you want to make the sub placement easy, get the one that connects to HEOS, MusicCast or if you decide on it, Sonos. However, the reason I like the first two more is due to their having more inputs/outputs, 12V trigger and the variety of connections, including digital coax, optical and analog. These can be set to operate in mono, but it's not a deal-breaker because the additional zones in the Denon AVRs can be set to Mono, too.

BTW- the 4300H is discontinued. If you can find a refurb with full warranty, it's a very good AVR- I'm working on a system upgrade that has one and previously, I had passed on using the extra zones for tricky installations, but this one works great, if one thing is remembered- start Zones 2 and 3 before the Main zone if Main will be used for something other than HEOS or whole house audio- I happen to be using Main for the 12V triggers to individually turn on two power amps, so it's not a normal system. If you don't need to use Main for anything, you can probably omit this instruction. I'm using Z2 in stereo (with Dynaudio in-ceiling speakers) as a separate zone and it's using the audio from the preamp being used to control the music in the House Audio (Parasound P5, on its own remote because the husband likes to do paperwork on the dining room table and using one remote means anyone in the DEN would have to retrieve it if they want to do anything and because I like clients to use the remote more than the app because I can eliminate more of the commands that could cause trouble (like AVR Setup, which curious kids could use to screw up the settings). The amplifiers in this AVR are good- I have no problem using them in this system and sound quality is better than some other brands.

If you DO want to operate all of the rooms as separate zones, you can use the AVR to feed three of them. If you can have the control options you need by using one speaker in smaller rooms and ganging two of them together (rather than pairs), you can use Zone 2 for two rooms and Zone 3 for two more. If you want to keep the budget really low, you can control the level of Left and Right separately, but you would need to use a remote/app and add those buttons.

The most flexible way to control all zones separately (stereo or mono) is to buy a 12 channel amplifier and feed Z2/3 into the channels you want and use HEOS Links to feed the others until you have the number of sliders that you need. I have used the Dayton 12 channel amp from Parts Express several times and it's not only a tank, it has all of the features and sound quality of most others. One that is better for powering many speakers is the Parasound amp and it not only has the connections for more speakers, it handles lower impedance without puking. I use these with some channels in stereo, some channels bridged for full-range and others bridged for subwoofers, fed by the sub out of an AVR or mixer- if I need the whole amp to turn on at one time, I use the 12V trigger input and if I need the channels to activate only when they receive the signal (and leave the others off), I set the switch to Auto. The channels than need to be ganged as one group are set to use the Bus 1 input and other ganged channels use the Bus 2 input. If I only want the subs to turn on, I use the Line In jacks in the same area as the St/Bridge switch, input select and speaker terminals.

If you use one of the Dayton amps from Parts Express, you'll definitely have more money for speakers. I like the Polk, but they're a bit light in the low end, although the last ones I used didn't have a back box.

If the power from the HEOS Link amps is sufficient, it's not a bad way to go- that piece still has more inputs than the Sonos.

I think HEOS sounds better than Sonos. Adding the extra inputs, outputs and trigger is just gravy on the icing. The app works as well, you can control the Denon AVR's input selections and, specific to the HEOS 1, I like the fact that it uses a computer-style power supply to send DC to the power input and that means it CAN be used as a direct replacement for in-wall or on-wall speakers that only had speaker wire connecting them. Neither Sonos nor MusicCast can be used without the need for an AC outlet somewhere nearby- the power supply for the HEOS 1 can be located near the rest of the equipment and the appropriate connectors used when connecting at each end and this works because the voltage and current are limited, so CL2/CL3 (or CMA/CMP) rated speaker wire conforms to the electrical code. In addition, the HEOS 1 can be used with its accessory battery, to take it anywhere. It also has a USB port, which lets you recharge a phone.

I also like the MusicCast sound quality, although the effect from the 'Enhanced' setting is noticeable as an octave note that's slightly delayed (it's a very slight delay, so it may not be noticeable to many people). I'm using it as the preamp in my system until I choose something to replace my old one, but I'm really not in any hurry WRT sound quality. I like the sound from this piece but I wouldn't mix brands in a system like the one you're considering.

One other thing that may or may not interest you- HEOS works with Alexa. I haven't added HEOS as a skill, but the sound from an Echo Dot when connected to the analog input of the 4300H is decent. Not as good as HEOS or the others, but since the source input level and tone controls in each AVR zone are adjustable, it works.

You'll have enough inputs on the AVR-X4300H to do what you want, especially if you use the tablets and phones to connect via WiFi. At this point, there's no need to tether them to the jacks of an AVR or the HEOS. It works on either platform and if you want the best range, WiFi will provide it as long as the network is set up correctly.

Note- make sure to feed some Cat5e/6 cables to the attic, basement (if you have either, or both) and leave enough extra to allow flexibility in placement in the event that you need additional access points. These can be powered by POE, so you won't need any outlets. An option is to install some kind of conduit to the attic and/or basement from the closet, for future wiring needs. 2" should be enough but make sure to install a junction box at each end that can be covered- code may require it if it's unused and some local codes require a box if any splices are made in a basement or attic.

 

[Big Papa]

First off, thank you for all the quick replies. Very beneficial in helping me work out the kinks to my plan as well as wrap my brain around the project as a whole. As I always do, I start out with a larger picture that seems great and all, but in actual reality, what is functional that is reliable will be the key here. I may override my wife and hard wire controls in each room with a tablet or two to control the sources as well from sitting down or walking around. Seems to be the more affordable approach by your guys feedback.

@2channel guy - I like the idea of one speaker in the main and agree with too much in the bathroom. Will look into that amp listed, but for future expansion might need to go up a bit.

@TheWarrior - I am very interested in your review of those speakers so please keep me in mind when you post your review to throw me the link. I'll keep a look out though. Got about 15 days until I start wiring the home as the roof will be fully dried in and will start ordering then.

@highfigh - what a response and thank you. Going to digest what you sent me for a bit...

To answer: What do you mean by "Planning on using POE to power tablets."?
- I have read, on here actually, that a guy ran his ethernet drops to where his tablet would be placed in the wall and had a converter that would throw ethernet to usb to power the android tablet. Just a thought...

How many of these zones do you want to adjust, individually?
- I would like to individually control Den (obviously as it will be 5.1 theater), kitchen, and porch as a start since the three will be the most used out of all in my opinion (I will be on porch / she in kitchen OR I be in the kitchen/she in the den). Bathroom would be a plus for the wife.

 

[BMXTRIX]

One of my questions/concerns is how surround sound is dealt with by Heos and these other platforms. AppleTV, by example, only offers HDMI connectivity. It does not deliver two channel stereo along with surround sound. So, for a 5.1 HEOS receiver, how does it feed secondary zones with audio? Does it have a DSP on every single HDMI input to downmix to stereo to separate HEOS zones, or does it have a DSP on every HEOS connection which accepts surround sound and performs a downmix of the audio?

This has been a huge issue with integrated distributed audio for years now, and I have yet to see a manufacturer who has any clue on how to handle this.

I think there is a long list of questions which need to be answered about what is going on outside the audio realm if there are zones which are getting video feeds as well as audio feeds to them.

In an audio world, the Sonos type products are all rooted in stereo connectivity. Some may have digital audio inputs and can handle basic downmixing to stereo, but for the most part, they just are really head over heels for streaming content from your home network or from the Internet. They don't care about your AppleTV or your cable box.

So, it is common for these systems to exist entirely outside of surround systems. That is, HEOS is one system, and your surround system gets a feed from HEOS, but not necessarily the other way around. Feeding AppleTV to your HEOS system or any other surround source may prove to be more difficult than just picking it as a source. Likewise, I'm not sure how it handles things if you have multiple sources the way you currently do.

So, some real thought needs to go into what you really want to distribute around the house.

Of course, anytime I hear the word 'zone' I think of a completely separate and distinct zone of audio, not one which is constantly combined with another area. So, one surround zone and five stereo zones.

I typically run more speakers in a room instead of less, but no less than two unless it is a tiny bathroom or the laundry room. Master bathroom with a separate shower needs a single speaker over the shower if you intend to listen while in the shower. Otherwise, you won't be able to hear any audio without cranking the music way up.

I am still not at all a fan of using tablets and phones to control basic audio. You walk into a room, press one button on the wall, and audio should start. Anything less than that and you have headaches. Turn on, swipe, charge, where is my tablet?, firmware updates, product just broke, they discontinued support for that older product, etc., etc.

This is where solutions from some manufacturers are nice because they do offer one key solutions to get audio going. The headache being that the audio is not going to be a streaming source most often, but something hard wired.

There is a great deal going on, but if your main intent, in your bathroom, is to listen to your record player, then you are willing to put in a lot more effort than I typically would in the morning.

 

[Big Papa]

@BMXTRIX - great feedback and I appreciate it. Especially the feedback on basic audio control because I never thought about the headaches in general. I chuckled a bit at your last statement especially at the fact that you thought about me wanting to wake up, put a record on and then take a shower...come on man!

I'll have to go back to the drawing board with all of your suggestions and spend more time thinking it through.

 

[highfigh]

To answer: What do you mean by "Planning on using POE to power tablets."?
- I have read, on here actually, that a guy ran his ethernet drops to where his tablet would be placed in the wall and had a converter that would throw ethernet to usb to power the android tablet. Just a thought...

How many of these zones do you want to adjust, individually?
- I would like to individually control Den (obviously as it will be 5.1 theater), kitchen, and porch as a start since the three will be the most used out of all in my opinion (I will be on porch / she in kitchen OR I be in the kitchen/she in the den). Bathroom would be a plus for the wife.

If you only want to recharge the tablet, you can just use a wall wart charger- having ethernet is good, but you really don't need POE to do this.

Other than he bathroom, your AVR will cover the rest (Den, kitchen and porch) with ease. If you want to make the bathroom music easy, look into the separate HEOS speakers- they can be added to the others to allow hearing the same music, or it can be controlled separately if she wants to hear something different.

 

[highfigh]

One of my questions/concerns is how surround sound is dealt with by Heos and these other platforms. AppleTV, by example, only offers HDMI connectivity. It does not deliver two channel stereo along with surround sound. So, for a 5.1 HEOS receiver, how does it feed secondary zones with audio? Does it have a DSP on every single HDMI input to downmix to stereo to separate HEOS zones, or does it have a DSP on every HEOS connection which accepts surround sound and performs a downmix of the audio?

This has been a huge issue with integrated distributed audio for years now, and I have yet to see a manufacturer who has any clue on how to handle this.

I think there is a long list of questions which need to be answered about what is going on outside the audio realm if there are zones which are getting video feeds as well as audio feeds to them.

In an audio world, the Sonos type products are all rooted in stereo connectivity. Some may have digital audio inputs and can handle basic downmixing to stereo, but for the most part, they just are really head over heels for streaming content from your home network or from the Internet. They don't care about your AppleTV or your cable box.

So, it is common for these systems to exist entirely outside of surround systems. That is, HEOS is one system, and your surround system gets a feed from HEOS, but not necessarily the other way around. Feeding AppleTV to your HEOS system or any other surround source may prove to be more difficult than just picking it as a source. Likewise, I'm not sure how it handles things if you have multiple sources the way you currently do.

So, some real thought needs to go into what you really want to distribute around the house.

Of course, anytime I hear the word 'zone' I think of a completely separate and distinct zone of audio, not one which is constantly combined with another area. So, one surround zone and five stereo zones.

I typically run more speakers in a room instead of less, but no less than two unless it is a tiny bathroom or the laundry room. Master bathroom with a separate shower needs a single speaker over the shower if you intend to listen while in the shower. Otherwise, you won't be able to hear any audio without cranking the music way up.

I am still not at all a fan of using tablets and phones to control basic audio. You walk into a room, press one button on the wall, and audio should start. Anything less than that and you have headaches. Turn on, swipe, charge, where is my tablet?, firmware updates, product just broke, they discontinued support for that older product, etc., etc.

This is where solutions from some manufacturers are nice because they do offer one key solutions to get audio going. The headache being that the audio is not going to be a streaming source most often, but something hard wired.

There is a great deal going on, but if your main intent, in your bathroom, is to listen to your record player, then you are willing to put in a lot more effort than I typically would in the morning.

AppleTV may have an optical out and if it does, it can be used for two channel audio by assigning it to another input or using analog, if a small DAC is used. The one caveat is that if it's being used for video, the optical out won't provide usable sound, just a lot of noise. That being the case, an AppleTV isn't even needed for AirPlay with a Denon AVR since it has BT built in and HEOS can play whatever is on the phone. Honestly, using HEOS with an iPhone is really easy and it works well. It's true that devices age out of usefulness and can crash, the app can be disabled by new firmware and other issues can arise, but in the system I'm finishing, my iPhone required an update, but the homeowner's dad's old iPad logged into HEOS today without a problem and it's fairly old.

 

[2channel lover]

First off, thank you for all the quick replies. Very beneficial in helping me work out the kinks to my plan as well as wrap my brain around the project as a whole. As I always do, I start out with a larger picture that seems great and all, but in actual reality, what is functional that is reliable will be the key here. I may override my wife and hard wire controls in each room with a tablet or two to control the sources as well from sitting down or walking around. Seems to be the more affordable approach by your guys feedback.

@2channel guy - I like the idea of one speaker in the main and agree with too much in the bathroom. Will look into that amp listed, but for future expansion might need to go up a bit.

Amp...yeah, the A800 works great for me, but it might under serve your needs at some point. I'm not sure how you plan to use the whole house system (back ground music, festive party, etc., everyone is different, but from my experience, you're probably not going to be playing music very loud in the master or bathroom...you can easily save a few bucks and make due with one speaker in those areas.

I'm quite sure those Triads will be killer...I have Noble Fidelity in ceiling and they're pretty impressive...the sun room is roughly 420 sf with 20' vaulted ceiling and the L85mkii doesn't get lost at all, positioned close to a vertical wall, they have more bass than you might expect....$900 a pr.

 

[DigitalDawn]

If I can help with Triad, please let me know.