Why didn't they choose an AVR?

[lovinthehd]

LOL I think ol' eargiant has been butt clenching again. What a silly comparison. A single 2ch power amp for $3k vs a $1k avr. Their capabilities/uses are just a bit different, as well as the cost. If you were going to need what the avr offers, in terms of the Benchmark amp, 7ch capability would be a $12k proposition plus a pre-pro for perhaps $3k. Not too many people that are looking for what that avr can do for $1k are going to think about $15k for something of similar capability, despite the better spec'd separate combo.

At least Seas chose a relatively modest and capable amp instead of something costing 10x more for audio jewelry....but the big question is whose cables are they using?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I do recall people suggested AVR as an viable alternative on occasions, to someone who was asking for suggestions on a two channel integrated amp at a relatively low budget price. Depending on other factors, I likely would have supported such an idea too, but I would not, and do not recall anyone ever suggested an AVR (any AVR) as alternative to something like the ATI3005, or the subject Benchmark ABH2 kind of amps. He said he's not being sensitive, yet this claim of...always AVR..AVR...AVR thing seem to indicate otherwise... In any case, let's not be sensitive ourselves to whatever anyone has anything to say either. The fact is, the ABH2 has impressive specs and performed very well on the bench.

One of many things good about electronics is that numbers don’t “lie”.

We all can see that the ABH2 has excellent numbers.

But as Audioholics, we understand that these numbers need to be put in perspective, not absolute.

We put everything (AVR and separates) in perspective. There is a time and place for everything.

There is a place for both AVR and separates.

 

[<eargiant]

LOL I think ol' eargiant has been butt clenching again. What a silly comparison. A single 2ch power amp for $3k vs a $1k avr. Their capabilities/uses are just a bit different, as well as the cost. If you were going to need what the avr offers, in terms of the Benchmark amp, 7ch capability would be a $12k proposition plus a pre-pro for perhaps $3k. Not too many people that are looking for what that avr can do for $1k are going to think about $15k for something of similar capability, despite the better spec'd separate combo.

At least Seas chose a relatively modest and capable amp instead of something costing 10x more for audio jewelry....but the big question is whose cables are they using?

Ad hominem comments only divert from the issue at hand. "Butt clenching" was funny the first three times you mentioned it but now it's getting pretty old.

As for the comparison, it wasn't just silly it was ASININE and I wasn't the one who made it in the first place. Just to clarify, the comparison also had nothing to do with the features of the units or their intended use. It was originally brought up by one of your buddies here (who by the way did not know how to compare SNR measurements in the first place) that the SNR of a ~$500 AVR was better than that of the AHB2. 'Cause god knows anything above the performance specs of a ~$500 AVR is just for bling and bragging rights, never performance if used within it's rated output, no matter how cheap you build them.

Never in a million years did I think that on a site like this that supposedly prides itself on facts a member would make such an idiotic comparison and have more than half the forum agreeing with him and high-fiving. Specs are as good as they get, you can't hear it any way, blind test, yada, yada, yada. See what I mean AVR, AVR, AVR... good enough-no difference. Talk about misinformation.

Obviously SEAS didn't see it that way. But now you're going to praise them for not using a more expensive amp? and give them a side dig about cables? Really, do you know the reputation SEAS has?

This thread is already being steered into a receiver vs. separate debate which it is NOT. It's about real world technical specifications, etc. and the capabilities of a piece of equipment.

In PENGs last response to me he covered every paragraph I wrote but skipped the first sentence I bolded. I'd still like to know why the amp section of an AVR would not qualify for what SEAS was looking for.

 

[TechHDS]

Ad hominem comments only divert from the issue at hand. "Butt clenching" was funny the first three times you mentioned it but now it's getting pretty old.

As for the comparison, it wasn't just silly it was ASININE and I wasn't the one who made it in the first place. Just to clarify, the comparison also had nothing to do with the features of the units or their intended use. It was originally brought up by one of your buddies here (who by the way did not know how to compare SNR measurements in the first place) that the SNR of a ~$500 AVR was better than that of the AHB2. 'Cause god knows anything above the performance specs of a ~$500 AVR is just for bling and bragging rights, never performance if used within it's rated output, no matter how cheap you build them.

Never in a million years did I think that on a site like this that supposedly prides itself on facts a member would make such an idiotic comparison and have more than half the forum agreeing with him and high-fiving. Specs are as good as they get, you can't hear it any way, blind test, yada, yada, yada. See what I mean AVR, AVR, AVR... good enough-no difference. Talk about misinformation.

Obviously SEAS didn't see it that way. But now you're going to praise them for not using a more expensive amp? and give them a side dig about cables? Really, do you know the reputation SEAS has?

This thread is already being steered into a receiver vs. separate debate which it is NOT. It's about real world technical specifications, etc. and the capabilities of a piece of equipment.

In PENGs last response to me he covered every paragraph I wrote but skipped the first sentence I bolded. I'd still like to know why the amp section of an AVR would not qualify for what SEAS was looking for.

@eargiant, Your Thread isn't a shootout, your thread is a good one. Some of these guys on Audioholics site are pretty damn sharp and knowledgeable. PENG, Loveinthehd, ect.. I agree at least SEAS didn't use some $10,000 amp. I agree, yeah some of the comments can be "asinine" but even that from anyone be it a long time member or someone just starting out with this hobby is why this hobby is very subjective and so are some of the post and comments. I wish I knew as much as some of the ole timers and long time members in here.

 

[Mikado463]

That is why amps do not all sound the same.

OMG......say it isn't so ....... a respected member of the Audioholics making such a claim !!!!

 

[lovinthehd]

Ad hominem comments only divert from the issue at hand. "Butt clenching" was funny the first three times you mentioned it but now it's getting pretty old.

As for the comparison, it wasn't just silly it was ASININE and I wasn't the one who made it in the first place. Just to clarify, the comparison also had nothing to do with the features of the units or their intended use. It was originally brought up by one of your buddies here (who by the way did not know how to compare SNR measurements in the first place) that the SNR of a ~$500 AVR was better than that of the AHB2. 'Cause god knows anything above the performance specs of a ~$500 AVR is just for bling and bragging rights, never performance if used within it's rated output, no matter how cheap you build them.

Never in a million years did I think that on a site like this that supposedly prides itself on facts a member would make such an idiotic comparison and have more than half the forum agreeing with him and high-fiving. Specs are as good as they get, you can't hear it any way, blind test, yada, yada, yada. See what I mean AVR, AVR, AVR... good enough-no difference. Talk about misinformation.

Obviously SEAS didn't see it that way. But now you're going to praise them for not using a more expensive amp? and give them a side dig about cables? Really, do you know the reputation SEAS has?

This thread is already being steered into a receiver vs. separate debate which it is NOT. It's about real world technical specifications, etc. and the capabilities of a piece of equipment.

In PENGs last response to me he covered every paragraph I wrote but skipped the first sentence I bolded. I'd still like to know why the amp section of an AVR would not qualify for what SEAS was looking for.

Ad hominem, seriously? Seems a butt clenched idea to me, so consider your butt off the hook, okay? Feel better now? It isn't a serious conversation unless maybe someone at SEAS had it....that would be interesting.....your idea of comparing these dissimilar products and having a forum conniption fit, meh.

If you propose a 2ch power amp that costs $3k to someone looking at an 7ch avr, it's more apples and oranges than anything else. You likely would not be able to pass a dbt with this amp vs another (within the usual limits/capabilities)....so don't get too cocky (or please connect us to the dbt you participated in where you were able to identify amps consistently). That there may be speakers with impedance/phase angle issues that this amp may handle better? Possible, sure. Usually an issue? No.

I don't know that SEAS even bought the damn thing let alone what was involved in choosing it, nor do you. That they wanted an amp with great technical specs I can understand, and why not go with something that would be considered acceptable to their market? Makes sense to me. No doubt the Benchmark amp and their pre-amp have stellar specs and at somewhat reasonable pricing when you compare to the really esoteric stuff out there. Bravo Benchmark.

 

[PENG]

Because I thought someone would explain the answer as to why the AVR wouldn't qualify.

In PENGs last response to me he covered every paragraph I wrote but skipped the first sentence I bolded. I'd still like to know why the amp section of an AVR would not qualify for what SEAS was looking for.

That's because I responded to that in post#8 already. Since you are not giving up, and I respect that, let me just do some copy and paste below:

"SEAS, a well-known manufacturer of high-quality loudspeakers, selected the Benchmark AHB2 as a key component for use in testing loudspeakers. They created an innovative test system that measures loudspeaker motor strength and moving mass with higher accuracy than previous methods."

"In late 2016, SEAS contacted Benchmark about the possibility of using the AHB2 power amplifier in a laboratory environment. They needed an amplifier with exceptionally wide bandwidth, low noise, low output impedance, low distortion, and bulletproof overload protection."

It seems the answer to your question should be more than obvious. In fact, many separate power amps wouldn't quality, let alone an AVR. It is also obvious that it is not just about super higher power requirements. As you pointed out yourself, the AHB2 is rated only 100 W into 8 ohm and 200 W into 4 ohm. In fact, many power amp (even AVRs) can do more at clipping but that's not the point at all. As everettT made it clear in post#10, that it is application driven. For the application Benchmark cited, it would seem normal that the 3 letter word wouldn't even crossed anyone's mind regardless of their power specs.

Lastly, I am impressed with the AHB2's specs overall, but mostly it's extraordinarily low THD+N and high SNR. On the test bench, it clipped at 108/210 W into 8/4 ohm, so no it is not what one would consider a power house, hence my post#3 in which I politely and slightly disagree with TLSG.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-measurements

Fig.4 Benchmark AHB2, sum of distortion harmonics (dB ref. fundamental) vs 1kHz continuous output power into 8 ohms.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Is this whole thread about separates vs receivers or needing more power or is it actually about how awesome the powerful 100-whole-watt Benchmark amp is?

If it's about how awesome this 100-watt amp is, you can stop right there because most guys don't want a 100-watt amp when they could get a 300-watt amp.

It doesn't matter if the 100-watt has a SNR of 130-dB because it's beyond human audibility as already discussed many times in other threads about this 100-watt amp.

For one, speakers have worse distortion and noise than receivers. You know, the weakest link. Your room produces so much more distortion and noise than receivers.

I think the better question is, "Why didn't SEAS choose a more powerful amp?"

Since so many guys talk about needing 300-watt amps and LAUGHING at 100-watt amps, why did SEAS choose a 100-watt amp?

Could it be that power is over-rated? That most applications don't need more than 100 watts?

Could a 300-watt amp destroy the SEAS drivers if pushed to limits? You bet it could.

 

[highfigh]

LOL I think ol' eargiant has been butt clenching again. What a silly comparison. A single 2ch power amp for $3k vs a $1k avr. Their capabilities/uses are just a bit different, as well as the cost. If you were going to need what the avr offers, in terms of the Benchmark amp, 7ch capability would be a $12k proposition plus a pre-pro for perhaps $3k. Not too many people that are looking for what that avr can do for $1k are going to think about $15k for something of similar capability, despite the better spec'd separate combo.

At least Seas chose a relatively modest and capable amp instead of something costing 10x more for audio jewelry....but the big question is whose cables are they using?

 

[highfigh]

Ad hominem comments only divert from the issue at hand. "Butt clenching" was funny the first three times you mentioned it but now it's getting pretty old.

As for the comparison, it wasn't just silly it was ASININE and I wasn't the one who made it in the first place. Just to clarify, the comparison also had nothing to do with the features of the units or their intended use. It was originally brought up by one of your buddies here (who by the way did not know how to compare SNR measurements in the first place) that the SNR of a ~$500 AVR was better than that of the AHB2. 'Cause god knows anything above the performance specs of a ~$500 AVR is just for bling and bragging rights, never performance if used within it's rated output, no matter how cheap you build them.

Never in a million years did I think that on a site like this that supposedly prides itself on facts a member would make such an idiotic comparison and have more than half the forum agreeing with him and high-fiving. Specs are as good as they get, you can't hear it any way, blind test, yada, yada, yada. See what I mean AVR, AVR, AVR... good enough-no difference. Talk about misinformation.

Obviously SEAS didn't see it that way. But now you're going to praise them for not using a more expensive amp? and give them a side dig about cables? Really, do you know the reputation SEAS has?

This thread is already being steered into a receiver vs. separate debate which it is NOT. It's about real world technical specifications, etc. and the capabilities of a piece of equipment.

In PENGs last response to me he covered every paragraph I wrote but skipped the first sentence I bolded. I'd still like to know why the amp section of an AVR would not qualify for what SEAS was looking for.

You came to ask why SEAS uses a Benchmark amplifier and then didn't like what was offered, shown in your response of "
We're not talking about what "some guys" want, that's the same old discussion that will get us nowhere.

I'm asking about SEAS."

If you want to know why, ask them, not a bunch of people who aren't part of that company, have no influence on what they use and why.

All we can do is guess- you don't seem to have bothered to even do that. You could have offered at least one guess of your own.

A possible reason they used a power amp instead of an AVR is that SEAS drivers aren't used in many of the most popular speakers because the manufacturers want to hit a price point- if they had SEAS drivers, that might be difficult or impossible. If you ask many who use an AVR, the majority are priced in the <$1K price range, more like <$700 area. That means they don't research speakers to the extent others do and wouldn't know whose drivers are in their favorites because they base their buying decisions on the brand, not the components inside. How many people would buy a $700 AVR and pop for a pair of $3000 speakers?

SEAS is probably using something on par with those who use their speakers. If their drivers were less expensive, they probably would use an AVR because they would be more concerned with keeping the impedance in a range that makes AVRs happy, rather than relying on the amplifier manufacturer to design products that don't puke as soon as the impedance dips into the 4 Ohm range on occasion.

 

[<eargiant]

Ad hominem, seriously? Seems a butt clenched idea to me, so consider your butt off the hook, okay? Feel better now? It isn't a serious conversation unless maybe someone at SEAS had it....that would be interesting.....your idea of comparing these dissimilar products and having a forum conniption fit, meh.

If you propose a 2ch power amp that costs $3k to someone looking at an 7ch avr, it's more apples and oranges than anything else. You likely would not be able to pass a dbt with this amp vs another (within the usual limits/capabilities)....so don't get too cocky (or please connect us to the dbt you participated in where you were able to identify amps consistently). That there may be speakers with impedance/phase angle issues that this amp may handle better? Possible, sure. Usually an issue? No.

It's clear you don't even know what you are talking about. I have not proposed or compared anything, just wondering why some of you guys always do when it comes to specs. Why is that part so hard for you to understand? It seems your "butt" is not clenched because your head found it's way all the way up it. See, I can resort to lowly ad hominem comments too.

Where were YOU when ACDTGuy first made the "silly" comparison in the thread below. To a $300 AVR no less! Why weren't you calling him out?

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/the-audio-path-in-consumer-grade-products.108304/

That's because I responded to that in post#8 already. Since you are not giving up, and I respect that, let me just do some copy and paste below:

"SEAS, a well-known manufacturer of high-quality loudspeakers, selected the Benchmark AHB2 as a key component for use in testing loudspeakers. They created an innovative test system that measures loudspeaker motor strength and moving mass with higher accuracy than previous methods."

"In late 2016, SEAS contacted Benchmark about the possibility of using the AHB2 power amplifier in a laboratory environment. They needed an amplifier with exceptionally wide bandwidth, low noise, low output impedance, low distortion, and bulletproof overload protection."

It seems the answer to your question should be more than obvious.

Wait, wait wait! Why should the answer be "more than obvious", you're quoting a marketing piece back to me that was put out by the manufacturer!!!! I thought you guys discard any such comments made my manufacturers!

Can you imagine if I would have replied like that to you guys in that other thread about the AHB2?

In fact, many separate power amps wouldn't quality, let alone an AVR. It is also obvious that it is not just about super higher power requirements. As you pointed out yourself, the AHB2 is rated only 100 W into 8 ohm and 200 W into 4 ohm. In fact, many power amp (even AVRs) can do more at clipping but that's not the point at all. As everettT made it clear in post#10, that is is application driven. For the application Benchmark cited, it would seem normal that the 3 letter word wouldn't even crossed anyone's mind regardless of their power specs.

Lastly, I am impressed with the AHB2's specs overall, but mostly it's extraordinarily low THD+N and high SNR. On the test bench, it clipped at 108/210 W into 8/4 ohm, so no it is not what one would consider a power house, hence my post#3 in which I politely and slightly disagree with TLSG.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-measurements

Fig.4 Benchmark AHB2, sum of distortion harmonics (dB ref. fundamental) vs 1kHz continuous output power into 8 ohms.

It seems that you're saying that the audio path in the AHB2 is exceptional and superior to many consumer product whether they be AVRs or separates. Clearly, SEAS agrees.

I wish YOU would have started the thread below instead of me because we might have actually gotten somewhere and discussed the design, build, circuit and component, etc. decisions that were made when this "extraordinary" little amp was conceived.

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/the-audio-path-in-consumer-grade-products.108304/

All we can do is guess- you don't seem to have bothered to even do that. You could have offered at least one guess of your own.

The question was rhetorical.

 

[highfigh]

I wish YOU would have started the thread below instead of me because we might have actually gotten somewhere and discussed the design, build, circuit and component, etc. decisions that were made when this "extraordinary" little amp was conceived.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-measurements



The question was rhetorical.

Was your intent of starting this thread to ask a question, or promote this amplifier? It sure looks like the latter, not that doing so would be a problem. It looks like a great amp and Benchmark have a good reputation, even if it's not an extremely well-known brand.

 

[TechHDS]

It's clear you don't even know what you are talking about. I have not proposed or compared anything, just wondering why some of you guys always do when it comes to specs. Why is that part so hard for you to understand? It seems your "butt" is not clenched because your head found it's way all the way up it. See, I can resort to lowly ad hominem comments too.

Where were YOU when ACDTGuy first made the "silly" comparison in the tread below. To a $300 AVR no less! Why weren't you calling him out?

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/the-audio-path-in-consumer-grade-products.108304/



Wait, wait wait! Why should the answer be "more than obvious", you're quoting a marketing piece back to me that was put out by the manufacturer!!!! I thought you guys discard any such comments made my manufacturers!

Can you imagine if I would have replied like that to you guys in that other thread about the AHB2?



It seems that you're saying that the audio path in the AHB2 is exceptional and superior to many consumer product whether they be AVRs or separates. Clearly, SEAS agrees.

I wish YOU would have started the thread below instead of me because we might have actually gotten somewhere and discussed the design, build, circuit and component, etc. decisions that were made when this "extraordinary" little amp was conceived.

https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-media-systems-ahb2-power-amplifier-measurements



The question was rhetorical.

@eargiant, Whoa!, dude I do believe you may have gotten off somewhere with your thread "loveinthehd' is very knowledgeable in this field of audio/video gear if I remember right I believe he even builds some of his own gear, speaker's. .ect. as most of the other ole timers on your thread. Not taking up for any of them cause believe me they can hold their own with facts, just a note some of these guys actually correspond with engineers and are close friends with engineers from have actually designed gear for Harman Kardon and other companies. Sure some have a dry or shoot from the hip with their post and comments. If all we did in here was talk specs about who has the lowest THD or how to actually compare and read THD, what fun would that be all the time?
I had a profile on here a year or two ago it got hacked, and who ever it was that hacked my profile was coming on some of my post and posting some really dumb and stupid sh$t. I mentioned damping Factor actually by accident cuz I wasn't really paying attention to what I was running on at the mouth and I can tell you without a doubt 'loveinthehd' is very knowledgeable and will go out of his way to help anyone with an issue with their system and if he gets stop I've seen him go out of his way to ask another old-timer to help out just to check his facts to be sure. So it's all good my fellow audio enthusiast it seems you to are very knowledgeable in audio and video gear this post isn't a knock on you at all. Just take some of what is posted by others with a grain of salt. Believe me it is All in fun, after all if we can't take a lil 'Rib' poking from others with their analogies than what's the point of joining up on this Forum? my opinion the best audio Forum on internet.

 

[PENG]

Where were YOU when ACDTGuy first made the "silly" comparison in the tread below. To $300 AVR no less! Why weren't you calling him out?

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/the-audio-path-in-consumer-grade-products.108304/

He knows I would call him out unless I missed the post, or if you had done a good job yourself already then I wouldn't want beat the dead horse. People do make mistakes, him and I included.

Wait, wait wait! Why should the answer be "more than obvious", you're quoting a marketing piece back to me that was put out by the manufacturer!!!! I thought you guys discard any such comments made my manufacturers!

I certainly don't automatically (as it always depends..) "discard....comments made by manufacturers, especially when there are credible bench test data available. In this case it is easy to fall back on the available facts and data than to take a personal guess.

It seems that you're saying that the audio path in the AHB2 is exceptional and superior to many consumer product whether they be AVRs or separates. Clearly, SEAS agrees.

If used well within it's power delivery limit I believe it is superior to many separate power amps. There isn't too many 100 W rated power amps to compared with though. Also, I am referring to specs and bench test results comparison only, for reasons I stated in the past, so McIntosh, ATI, Krell, Lyndorf, Passlab, Anthem, Bryston, Quad and other audiophile class amp loyalists need not attack me.

You said you were just being observant, so please try not to take others out of context. So far no one is remotely suggesting or implying that SEAS should, or could have considered an AVR for their intended use in a lab environment. Again, as everettT nicely put it, it is application driven.

 

[everettT]

The biggest thing I took away from SEAS info was the extreme robust protection circuits, which I assume you need when testing Raw Drivers.

This thread is off the rails for sure. In almost every thread asking if external amplification is needed, the qualifier is the speakers, listening habits, room size etc. Under a lot of those an AVR can safety meet those requirements. I use external amplification now in 2 systems due to EQ. Again all application dependent.

 

[<eargiant]

@eargiant, Whoa!, dude I do believe you may have gotten off somewhere with your thread "loveinthehd' is very knowledgeable in this field of audio/video gear if I remember right I believe he even builds some of his own gear, speaker's. .ect. as most of the other ole timers on your thread. Not taking up for any of them cause believe me they can hold their own with facts, just a note some of these guys actually correspond with engineers and are close friends with engineers from have actually designed gear for Harman Kardon and other companies. Sure some have a dry or shoot from the hip with their post and comments. If all we did in here was talk specs about who has the lowest THD or how to actually compare and read THD, what fun would that be all the time?
I had a profile on here a year or two ago it got hacked, and who ever it was that hacked my profile was coming on some of my post and posting some really dumb and stupid sh$t. I mentions damping Factor actually by accident cuz I wasn't really paying attention to what I was running on at the mouth and I can tell you without a doubt 'loveinthehd' is very knowledgeable and will go out of his way to help anyone with an issue with their system and if he gets stop I've seen him go out of his way to ask another old-timer to help out just to check his facts to be sure. So it's all good my fellow audio enthusiast it seems you to are very knowledgeable in audio and video gear this post isn't a knock on you at all. Just take some of what is posted by others with a grain of salt. Believe me it is All in fun, after all if we can't take a lil 'Rib' poking from others with their analogies than what's the point of joining up on this Forum? my opinion the best audio Forum on internet.

Yet he stood aside and let misinformation run rampant in that other thread. Can't go against the clique I guess.

He knows I would call him out unless I missed the post, or if you had done a good job yourself already then I wouldn't want beat the dead horse. People do make mistakes, him and I included.

Let's not re-write history, you were "liking" his misinformed quotes. Now you're actually making the points I made in the other thread.

Also, it's not beating a dead horse, it's clearing the air. The direction that thread took is why so many people don't come to this site anymore. I mean it shocking- the misuse of science and measurements and the vitriol held against any potential advancements.

The AHB2 was worthy of a good technical and scientific discussion. Too bad that wasn't allowed to happen. Gene needs to get this site back on track and not allow the inmates to run it. This is why so few people come here anymore, don't you notice it's always the same 6 or 7 guys discussing things in the same bubble patting each other on the back?

 

[highfigh]

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/the-audio-path-in-consumer-grade-products.108304/

The question was rhetorical.

If that's the case, why are you getting your nose all out of joint?

Don't assume anyone will assume it was rhetorical- you have gone on to do nothing but argue with people who offered opinions.

 

[yepimonfire]

OMG......say it isn't so ....... a respected member of the Audioholics making such a claim !!!!

While I respect the attitude of this forum in "pursing the truth", those truths have become almost a religious dogma, to the point where nobody can mention anything that might even slightly disagree with the rhetoric of them, even when presenting evidence to the contrary. There are multiple posts I have made with issues where @Tlsguy has jumped in and said something "out of canon" to this forum in response.

Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk

 

[everettT]

While I respect the attitude of this forum in "pursing the truth", those truths have become almost a religious dogma, to the point where nobody can mention anything that might even slightly disagree with the rhetoric of them, even when presenting evidence to the contrary. There are multiple posts I have made with issues where @Tlsguy has jumped in and said something "out of canon" to this forum in response.

Sent from my LM-X210(G) using Tapatalk

Haven't seen too many times TLS has had to correct himself. I have seen design philosophical differences. Remember some evidence presented is not factually correct because some other forum said so.

 

[PENG]

Let's not re-write history, you were "liking" his quotes. Now you're actually making the points I made in the other thread.

I gave the "like" rating to a lot of posts, including some of ADTG's, and probably yours too, but I don't remember for sure. If I disagree with someone's, I would either express my disagreement, or just ignore them. Just because I gave the guy a lot of "like", do not mean I agreed with all his posts. It has nothing to do with "re-write history". If there are things you feel I need to clear the air, just let me know, otherwise I am ready to move on.