Why didn't they choose an AVR?

[<eargiant]

Some guys here (you know who you are) like to say that a <$1K AVR will measure like the best of them and that any difference is marketing for audiophools.

If so, why did a respected driver manufacturer like SEAS choose this amp?

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/laboratory-use-of-the-benchmark-ahb2-power-amplifier

 

[TLS Guy]

Some guys here (you know who you are) like to say that a <$1K AVR will measure like the best of them and that any difference is marketing for audiophools.

If so, why did a respected driver manufacturer like SEAS choose this amp?

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/laboratory-use-of-the-benchmark-ahb2-power-amplifier

Because bench testing is done into a resistive load. So if an amp can't measure well into that load it is really bad. Real world loads are very different with impedance swings and variable phase angles. That is why amps do not all sound the same. The differences will be greater driving a variety of speakers. SEAS would be insane to use an AVR amp for that research.

 

[PENG]

Because bench testing is done into a resistive load. So if an amp can't measure well into that load it is really bad. Real world loads are very different with impedance swings and variable phase angles. That is why amps do not all sound the same. The differences will be greater driving a variety of speakers. SEAS would be insane to use an AVR amp for that research.

Sure, that's why I would always answer no to the silly question of whether all amps sound the same. There is, and should be qualifiers, other wise one can say all amps sound different. If an AVR is benched tested to be capable of say, 100 W average continuously into 8 ohm and 150 W into 4 ohm, at 0.05% THD+N, 20-20kHz and is used to output 0.5 W average per channel, then your points about reactive load do not apply. Phase angle results in more heat dissipation in the amp's output stage, and low impedance results in higher current, both get taken care of if the 100 W rated AVR is used well below their upper limit.

As an example, I use separates for my HT and 3 of my 4 two channel systems, and in my rooms the amps typically cruise at less than 0.5W average, so my one and only AVR based system is doing just fine.

 

[<eargiant]

Sure, that's why I would always answer no to the silly question of whether all amps sound the same. There is, and should be qualifiers, other wise one can say all amps sound different. If an AVR is benched tested to be capable of say, 100 W average continuously into 8 ohm and 150 W into 4 ohm, at 0.05% THD+N, 20-20kHz and is used to output 0.5 W average per channel, then your points about reactive load do not apply. Phase angle results in more heat dissipation in the amp's output stage, and low impedance results in higher current, both get taken care of if the 100 W rated AVR is used well below their upper limit.

As an example, I use separates for my HT and 3 of my 4 two channel systems, and in my rooms the amps typically cruise at less than 0.5W average, so my only 1 system that I used an old AVR is doing fine.

So then what is it? The AHB2 is only 100W, why didn't they use the AVR in your example?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Because it's marketing for audio......

No seriously, even if money were no object, the fact is, some guys would still want an all-in-one solution AVR that costs $5,000 for 3 reasons - sound quality, convenience, and most applications don't require as much power as some guys think.

There is nothing wrong with going either way - separates or AVR. It just depends on your application and preference.

Some guys think separates sound better because some separates may have better SNR or THD or more power output or simply because they are separates.

Other guys will disagree because they have owned both very high-end separates and mid-level AVR and they think any improvement is not night-and-day and nothing to brag about because they have much more impressive things to brag about in their lives than some $2K amps.

BTW, I am typing this on my 13th HTPC build with Windows 10 Pro x64 to see if I like Windows 10 better than Windows 7 Ultimate x64.

 

[<eargiant]

Because it's marketing for audio......

No seriously, even if money were no object, the fact is, some guys would still want an all-in-one solution AVR that costs $5,000 for 3 reasons - sound quality, convenience, and most applications don't require as much power as some guys think.

There is nothing wrong with going either way - separates or AVR. It just depends on your application and preference.

Some guys think separates sound better because some separates may have better SNR or THD or more power output or simply because they are separates.

Other guys will disagree because they have owned both very high-end separates and mid-level AVR and they think any improvement is not night-and-day and nothing to brag about because they have much more impressive things to brag about in their lives than some $2K amps.

We're not talking about what "some guys" want, that's the same old discussion that will get us nowhere.

I'm asking about SEAS.

 

[everettT]

So then what is it? The AHB2 is only 100W, why didn't they use the AVR in your example?

Because bench testing is done into a resistive load. So if an amp can't measure well into that load it is really bad. Real world loads are very different with impedance swings and variable phase angles. That is why amps do not all sound the same. The differences will be greater driving a variety of speakers. SEAS would be insane to use an AVR amp for that research.

Answered and do you think any manufacturer would purchase an AVR for testing drivers.?

 

[PENG]

Why asked, when you posted the link that appeared to contain the answer?

 

[<eargiant]

?

Not according to PENG. Isn't that what he's saying, the whole if the amp is driven within it's parameters argument?

 

[everettT]

Not according to PENG. Isn't that what he's saying, the whole if the amp is driven within it's parameters argument?

Nope, application driven

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Some guys logic in life: if ONE person uses one specific amp, than it must be the best or better than other amps that could do the same.

If a famous race driver drives a KIA, then the KIA must be the best or better than other cars in the class.

Hmm, I am kind of liking Windows 10.

If a famous computer programmer or IT guy uses Windows 10, then it must be the best or better than MAC or other OS?

 

[PENG]

Some guys logic in life: if ONE person uses one specific amp, than it must be the best or better than other amps that could do the same.

If a famous race driver drives a KIA, then the KIA must be the best or better than other cars in the class.

Hmm, I am kind of liking Windows 10.

If a famous computer programmer or IT guy uses Windows 10, then it must be the best or better than MAC or other OS?

Or ask your wife if iphone X is the best, why some people buy Samsung Note 8?

 

[PENG]

Answered and do you think any manufacturer would purchase an AVR for testing drivers.?

You meant like would any professional race car driver drive himself in a minivan to work everyday?

 

[<eargiant]

Why asked, when you posted the link that appeared to contain the answer?

Because I thought someone would explain the answer as to why the AVR wouldn't qualify.

Also, a while back I started a thread about this amp and I got so much instantaneous resistance that I was amazed. I really thought a forum like this would love an amp like this. It didn't take more than a few posts for someone to bring up an AVRs specs and ridicule the AHB2. I quickly realized that this place had become AVR, AVR and more AVR. Ask any question and the answer some will give you is AVR. What color is the sky? AVR!

The prevalent opinion by the most outspoken members here was that the AHB2 would not meaningfully perform or sound any better than a <1K AVR.

Many seemed to make strong "scientific" arguments against the "audiophoolery" of this amp. You know the "amplification has been solved long ago" argument. I get that, but this amp seems like something special to me.

And there you have it, ADTG is already bringing up "some guys logic in life".

Labs don't care about brands or status or high cost or who uses what, they care about science. If SEAS is using this amp to advance and test their drivers (which are used to reproduce audible sound) doesn't that tell you something?

 

[highfigh]

Some guys here (you know who you are) like to say that a <$1K AVR will measure like the best of them and that any difference is marketing for audiophools.

If so, why did a respected driver manufacturer like SEAS choose this amp?

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/laboratory-use-of-the-benchmark-ahb2-power-amplifier

We can't know why, unless someone here knows the people behind SEAS and Benchmark- in the audio industry, it's common for people to make friends and when those people want to promote their products, they sometimes give equipment to friends, or sell it at a discounted price.

OTOH, a separate power amp's power supply is often far more robust than what's in an AVR and under a difficult load, the power amp will often operate without bogging down. Look at AVR specs for 20H-20KHZ vs 1KHz- the output is NEVER the same. Look at many power amps- the output at 8/6/4/2 Ohms shows the ones with a strong power supply.

If someone is testing drivers, they need to drive them with an amp that can handle difficult loads, to find out if the drivers will perform with a robust amp. An AVR doesn't tell them the same things.

 

[PENG]

Also, a while back I started a thread about this amp and I got so much instantaneous resistance that I was amazed. I really thought a forum like this would love an amp like this. It didn't take more than a few posts for someone to bring up an AVRs specs and ridicule the AHB2. I quickly realized that this place had become AVR, AVR and more AVR. Ask any question and the answer some will give you is AVR. What color is the sky? AVR!

I don't think that's the case, may be you are a little too sensitive.. I am impressed with the Benchmark amp's specs but there are lots of amps with impressive specs in the same price range. So while there may not be any "resistance" to claims of how good that amp is, attempts to say it is better than another amp may invite what you might consider as "resistance" and that should be expected. Lots of people are very brand loyal.

For the record, all of my amps are of the class A/AB types and I have been seriously considering the not so convention kinds like the Lyndorf's and Benchmark's. Leaning towards the Lyndorf because I believe in the benefits of REQ, but the AHB2 is more affordable. I probably would pull the trigger soon.

The prevalent opinion by the most outspoken members here was that the AHB2 would not meaningfully perform or sound any better than a <1K AVR.

It is not just about sound quality, there are many other reason why one would go for a certain amp. Even my $300 QSC amp sounds great but the fan noise is/was an issue.

Many seemed to make strong "scientific" arguments against the "audiophoolery" of this amp. You know the "amplification has been solved long ago" argument. I get that, but this amp seems like something special to me.

Both can be true. You probably know I am a little more on the specs, facts, data, objective side, but as I mentioned, I would likely end up with one of those amps, but it won't be just for better sound quality.

Labs don't care about brands or status or high cost or who uses what, they care about science. If SEAS is using this amp to advance and test their drivers (which are used to reproduce audible sound) doesn't that tell you something?

It certainly does..

 

[<eargiant]

I don't think that's the case, may be you are a little too sensitive.. I am impressed with the Benchmark amp's specs but there are lots of amps with impressive specs in the same price range. So while there may not be any "resistance" to claims of how good that amp is, attempts to say it is better than another amp may invite what you might consider as "resistance" and that should be expected. Lots of people are very brand loyal.

For the record, all of my amps are of the class A/AB types and I have been seriously considering the not so convention kinds like the Lyndorf's and Benchmark's. Leaning towards the Lyndorf because I believe in the benefits of REQ, but the AHB2 is more affordable. I probably would pull the trigger soon.



It is not just about sound quality, there are many other reason why one would go for a certain amp. Even my $300 QSC amp sounds great but the fan noise is/was an issue.



Both can be true. You probably know I am a little more on the specs, facts, data, objective side, but as I mentioned, I would likely end up with one of those amps, but it won't be just for better sound quality.



It certainly does..

Nah, not sensitive- just observant...it's always AVR...AVR...AVR!!!

 

[TechHDS]

Some guys logic in life: if ONE person uses one specific amp, than it must be the best or better than other amps that could do the same.

If a famous race driver drives a KIA, then the KIA must be the best or better than other cars in the class.

Hmm, I am kind of liking Windows 10.

If a famous computer programmer or IT guy uses Windows 10, then it must be the best or better than MAC or other OS?

Logic always wins out why? cause Spock from Star Trek said so..lol. in Dr McCoy's best voice, Dam you Spock, not everything is logical, humans are not logical all the time. Spock to Bones, your statement is very subjective indeed Dr McCoy. lolo, this thread is off the chain. lolo ..it,s always avr, Avr, AVR!. LMAO..awesome thread man.lol.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Nah, not sensitive- just observant...it's always AVR...AVR...AVR!!!

My main system consists of the $7500 Denon AVP-A1HDCI, $4800 ATI AT3005, and $3600 ATI AT2005. So I don’t use AVR for my main System and I am not saying AVR, AVR, AVR.

A lot of other guys also use high-end separates and will continue to do so.

We are saying both Separates and AVR!

 

[PENG]

My main system consists of the $7500 Denon AVP-A1HDCI, $4800 ATI AT3005, and $3600 ATI AT2005. So I don’t use AVR for my main System and I am not saying AVR, AVR, AVR.

A lot of other guys also use high-end separates and will continue to do so.

We are saying both Separates and AVR!

I do recall people suggested AVR as an viable alternative on occasions, to someone who was asking for suggestions on a two channel integrated amp at a relatively low budget price. Depending on other factors, I likely would have supported such an idea too, but I would not, and do not recall anyone ever suggested an AVR (any AVR) as alternative to something like the ATI3005, or the subject Benchmark ABH2 kind of amps. He said he's not being sensitive, yet this claim of...always AVR..AVR...AVR thing seem to indicate otherwise... In any case, let's not be sensitive ourselves to whatever anyone has anything to say either. The fact is, the ABH2 has impressive specs and performed very well on the bench.