External Phono Preamp into the HK3490 internal Preamp - Bad idea?

[Flaffer]

I have a Orbit uturn turntable, the basic one so it is entry level. I have a Harmon Kardon HK3490 receiver with phono inputs into an internal preamp. The sound out of it has not been nearly as loud as the other inputs from the TV/Computer; I have to turn the volume way up compared to the other inputs. This led me to think I need to up the internal preamp.

I got an external phono amp here. When I put that in the middle between the turntable and the Phono input I heard a loud buzz which sounded like it was getting way too much line level (am I totally basic in my stereo knowledge, why yes I am). I did not want to even attempt to play anything; it was that loud. This seems like a bad idea, right?

I did plug the external amp into the CD input and the sound was comparable to the turntable plugged into the onboard HK preamp. No real improvement in the line level.

Should I attempt the external into the internal amp and drop the needle? Or should I look at maybe upgrading the cartridge or going for a new turntable altogether? I went for the model here. Do not be afraid to suggest I go to a new turntable. $500 would be the HIGHEST I would go but less would be best!

 

[KEW]

Others may have more to offer in the way of solutions.
But, to answer your base question,
Yes, Bad idea!

 

[Flaffer]

Others may have more to offer in the way of solutions.
But, to answer your base question,
Yes, Bad idea!

Thanks! I will most likely return the external preamp.

 

[Flaffer]

I have read some good things about the Rega turntables. The RP3 is the approx. $1000 price range and a bit out there for me price-wise. What about the Rega RP1? I can pick one up for around $400 which is more like my sweet spot.

 

[Swerd]

I have a Orbit uturn turntable, the basic one so it is entry level. I have a Harmon Kardon HK3490 receiver with phono inputs into an internal preamp. The sound out of it has not been nearly as loud as the other inputs from the TV/Computer; I have to turn the volume way up compared to the other inputs. This led me to think I need to up the internal preamp.

What you've observed is common. If the sound you get after you turn up the volume sounds balanced between bass and treble, not tinny or bass shy, then there's nothing wrong. The output of a typical phono pick up cartridge is very weak, roughly 3.5 to 5 millivolts. Even after the boost from a phono preamp, the signal is lower voltage than what you get from other sources, such as a CD (roughly 100 to 150 millivolts).

I got an external phono amp here. When I put that in the middle between the turntable and the Phono input I heard a loud buzz which sounded like it was getting way too much line level (am I totally basic in my stereo knowledge, why yes I am). I did not want to even attempt to play anything; it was that loud. This seems like a bad idea, right?

Yes, that was a bad idea. One phono preamp is enough; two at the same time are not better. Your instinct to avoid using both is good.

I did plug the external amp into the CD input and the sound was comparable to the turntable plugged into the onboard HK preamp. No real improvement in the line level.

Good that you did that test. It showed there was nothing defective about the external phono preamp you bought. Is the sound you get with the external preamp and the CD input the same as you get with the HK internal phono preamp? Are there subtle differences? Or are they so similar sounding that you can't tell the difference? Can you return the external preamp?

Should I attempt the external into the internal amp and drop the needle? Or should I look at maybe upgrading the cartridge or going for a new turntable altogether? I went for the model here. Do not be afraid to suggest I go to a new turntable. $500 would be the HIGHEST I would go but less would be best!

Spending money on a more expensive cartridge or a new turntable will not change your need to turn up the volume knob. You may get a more refined sound, or a lower background noise level, but it will be a subtle change. I'd save your money.

 

[M Code]

The Ortofon cartridge has an output of 4mV..
And when played through the 3490's phono preamp, or the external one U posted both of the phono preamps do not have enough gain to match the output level of a high level source such as a CD. They will work fine for general playback levels but when pushing for high volume levels U run out of gain. Also note that the level recorded on each vinyl disk can vary significantly as well. Other factors come into play for the entire system including amplifier power output and loudspeaker sensitivity.

Note that I am very aware of the 3490 electrical performance specifications as I was the original product engineer that sourced/developed that product..

I have alot of experience for phono preamps, cartridges, different vinyl disks. I actually have 10 different phono cartridges that I have accumulated over the last 20 years, plus a very large vinyl collection of direct-disk, audiophile pressings. For my system, my primary choice is to use a Yamaha pre-amp, Denon moving coil cartridge & stepup transformer, high-end Marantz turntable all run through a very powerful pro power amplifier coupled to some floor standing JBL tower loudspeakers. So I can crank the levels way up there but note the $ investment is 10X the cost of the 3490 and Rega TT.

If U are serious about vinyl, I would suggest U send back the other phono pre-amp, and purchase a Parasoun Z-phono preamp. The ParaSound has 46dB of gain compared to the 36 dB of gain of ur external phono pre-amp.
Here is a link to the Parasound unit...
http://www.parasound.com/zphono.php

The additional gain of 10dB should be enough to bring up ur expected volume level.
Post back if more questions..

Just my $0.02...

 

[TLS Guy]

Do not put a phono preamp into a phono input. You will correct the RIAA curve twice and have no HF plus overload the phono input.

A more expensive cartridge will have even less output.

It does not matter in the least that you have to turn the volume higher playing vinyl.

If that irritates you then M Code has your solution, a phono preamp with more gain.

Your other alternative is a full two channel preamp with a phono input between turntable and receiver. I have a preamp under each turntable.

That is the ideal solution. That way you can use preamps from the hey day of the LP which allows for correction of a good deal of the defects of LP reproduction. You can turn down the volume as the stylus is lowered, and turn it up on the lead in. You can set the volume to the optimal level to load the high level inputs of a pre/pro or receiver. The turntables can be a good distance form the high level inputs as they are in my case.

Also good vintage electronics matches much better the vagaries of LP reproduction than modern equipment does. For LP reproduction vintage electronics has a lot of upsides for playing LPs.