Volume...room filling? not just turning up the dial, after new AVR

[-Jim-]

Glad to see you are enjoying the system. I assume you are re-running Audyssey after each new setup.

The Denon is probably under less load now, with more of the Bass being handled correctly by the Sub, and the slight sensitivity improvement to an estimated 88.5dB/2.83V/m with the Paradigm Studio 100 v3. That's all good IMHO.

I hope you experiment with moving your primary listening couch away from the stairway 1/2 wall a couple of feet or so, and then place one your Paradigm Studio 40 v3s on it (Left Rear) and put the right one on a table /Stand /etc. near the South Wall (Right Rear). Then your setup will be able to envelope you in sound without cranking it to often painful levels. If you like that you can look into a more permanent rear speaker stand arrangement.

I'd also swap the Right Paradigm Studio 100 v3 with the Sub as you seem to really enjoy a little extra punchiness for the bass, and the soundstage may improve slightly with the Studio 100s being more equidistant from the screen / Center speaker. I'd also get the Center up off the floor onto the empty shelf just below the TV.

Please use a Blu Ray concert or Movie (or even a CD) for your critical listening. IMHO, no system can make crappy source material sound decent (think Sirius, most streaming, low bit rate MP3s, etc.) When using Blu Ray sources be sure to use HDMI connections for DTS Master HD or Dolby TrueHD sound. It's a significant step up above the old codecs.

 

[PENG]

Also this AVR-X1300W seems like it is not getting as hot with these studio 100's as it did with the studio 40's...thought that was weird.

For the speakers it has to drive, you really should install a 5V USB fan to blow air from the back to front. They are cheap and easy to install/hook up.

 

[KEW]

Also this AVR-X1300W seems like it is not getting as hot with these studio 100's as it did with the studio 40's...thought that was weird.

Actually, that is pretty typical (although somewhat counter-intuitive)!
Most likely, if you had a bookshelf version of your speaker, there would be a resistor in the crossover for the tweeter to dump power (into heat) so the tweeter is less efficient so as to balance with the woofer. Adding an additional driver gets the woofer efficiency up and results in less power needing to be wasted. So you get a "two for one"- the dual woofers improve the efficiency of the mid bass and the tweeter does not have to be dump power to match the woofers!

 

[Montucky]

Actually, that is pretty typical (although somewhat counter-intuitive)!
Most likely, if you had a bookshelf version of your speaker, there would be a resistor in the crossover for the tweeter to dump power (into heat) so the tweeter is less efficient so as to balance with the woofer. Adding an additional driver gets the woofer efficiency up and results in less power needing to be wasted. So you get a "two for one"- the dual woofers improve the efficiency of the mid bass and the tweeter does not have to be dump power to match the woofers!

Huh! That's interesting...and explains a lot. I've experienced the same thing. Now I know why!

 

[ErrorUnknown]

Oh Yeah, that's nice.
Set up the room like you guys suggested, couch pulled out 2 feet, Studio 40's in the back sides, centered the Studio 100's and moved the sub into the corner. That center is pointed up, there is a Kadet in-wall heater under the TV, where the center would fit better. The more I move the TV to the center of the wall the more it makes the living area lopsided.

Some times it feels like the sound is emanating from my head, sitting in the right spot.

Some of my Bass issue was also related to the fact that I had set it to LFE+Main at some point... almost to many features for a newb...slight learning curve. Don't feel like I need to turn up the sub now that its in the corner.


I think too that I am not turning it up as much so less heat there.
Have 2 USB fans on top.
Thanks again guys, now I need something to do justice to the music. (player)
I didn't realize there is so much different audio differences in sources...if that makes sense.

 

[lovinthehd]

Oh Yeah, that's nice.
Set up the room like you guys suggested, couch pulled out 2 feet, Studio 40's in the back sides, centered the Studio 100's and moved the sub into the corner. That center is pointed up, there is a Kadet in-wall heater under the TV, where the center would fit better. The more I move the TV to the center of the wall the more it makes the living area lopsided.

Some times it feels like the sound is emanating from my head, sitting in the right spot.

Some of my Bass issue was also related to the fact that I had set it to LFE+Main at some point... almost to many features for a newb...slight learning curve. Don't feel like I need to turn up the sub now that its in the corner.


I think too that I am not turning it up as much so less heat there.
Have 2 USB fans on top.
Thanks again guys, now I need something to do justice to the music. (player)
I didn't realize there is so much different audio differences in sources...if that makes sense.

Sometimes you have to make concessions for the audio as far as furniture layout goes, and vice versa...
often WAF influenced.

Does take a while to master all the settings/adjustments possible in the avr for various purposes but that flexibility is pretty nice.

Now, what do you mean about players and "so much different audio differences in sources"....source material or playback device or ?

 

[ErrorUnknown]

Sometimes you have to make concessions for the audio as far as furniture layout goes, and vice versa...
often WAF influenced.

Does take a while to master all the settings/adjustments possible in the avr for various purposes but that flexibility is pretty nice.

Now, what do you mean about players and "so much different audio differences in sources"....source material or playback device or ?

I own my house on 10 acres and no one to have to conform to...I can make all the noise I want and kick holes in the walls if I felt like it.

I never liked the way the download/internet music sounded when it first came out...well back in the 1990's anyways. I see talk here on the forum about HD downloads now, I need to check into.
Never gave it much thought in the last couple decades.
Only listen to CD's (1990's 5 disc Denon) and SiriusXM now.

Seems like with this new AVR you notice the differences in audio from one channel to another, because of the way it was recorded. Never noticed that with the old stereo setup.

I had a marginal quality DVD player that died and the PS3 for movies, just feels like there is probably something that's going to play back better these days. I bought a $40 Craig DVD player just to play with till I find something I like.

 

[KEW]

Seems like with this new AVR you notice the differences in audio from one channel to another, because of the way it was recorded. Never noticed that with the old stereo setup.

I can understand how you might make that association. However, unless your old receiver was faulty, it is much more likely you ability to better detect these things come from better integrating your room acoustics with your system or speaker upgrades. Most receivers will pretty much do a fine job of cleanly amplifying the signal they are fed.
Processing like Audyssey can also change things. However, speakers, room, and recording quality are the things that make the greatest differences!

 

[ErrorUnknown]

I can understand how you might make that association. However, unless your old receiver was faulty, it is much more likely you ability to better detect these things come from better integrating your room acoustics with your system or speaker upgrades. Most receivers will pretty much do a fine job of cleanly amplifying the signal they are fed.
Processing like Audyssey can also change things. However, speakers, room, and recording quality are the things that make the greatest differences!

Right it was just 2 speakers and sub.
Now its 5 speakers and the sub so now I actually notice it.

As an example...
I like to watch old movies on TCM 'Turner Classic Movies'...no amount of neat AVR features helps that OLD Mono recorded track.

Listening to 'Chill' SiriusXM...in Matrix mode, one song, I swear I was on a beach with the waves caressing the sands behind my head while the music was in front. Another track the music was circling the room and bouncing from one side to the other.

Was making me wonder what this HD stuff is like after I am starting to get a taste of this.
Never gave it much thought before.

 

[lovinthehd]

I own my house on 10 acres and no one to have to conform to...I can make all the noise I want and kick holes in the walls if I felt like it.

I never liked the way the download/internet music sounded when it first came out...well back in the 1990's anyways. I see talk here on the forum about HD downloads now, I need to check into.
Never gave it much thought in the last couple decades.
Only listen to CD's (1990's 5 disc Denon) and SiriusXM now.

Seems like with this new AVR you notice the differences in audio from one channel to another, because of the way it was recorded. Never noticed that with the old stereo setup.

I had a marginal quality DVD player that died and the PS3 for movies, just feels like there is probably something that's going to play back better these days. I bought a $40 Craig DVD player just to play with till I find something I like.

LOL my issues with download/internet music in the 90s was non-existent as I didn't try back then. Only been doing that for relatively few years (since about 2011). I haven't found much value to the HD scene, CD level is just fine. I mostly listen to my CDs outside of a player now, have transferred them all to FLAC files and play those in a variety of ways. The PS3 makes a fine bluray/dvd/cd player, tho....what I've used in my main system for quite a while (much more than the few games I play).

Having more choices on how to process a signal in an avr vs older 2ch stuff can be fun, and I have been collecting music mixed for multich. Might check out Porcupine Tree/Steven Wilson multi-ch recordings (dvd and bluray), as well as the multi-ch remixes he's done for others

 

[-Jim-]

Gents, I never liked the sound of Sirius Sat Radio. Far too much compression for me. If you can ever do an A/B comparison with say a CD that's been well recorded, you'll certainly notice the difference. But each to their own.

Digital Downloads in FLAC can be excellent and well worth a listen.

In the olden days I used a PS3 for a bluray/dvd/cd player. It did an amazing job, but I never tried it for Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio. I used to be into Optical connections, and didn't have HDMI into my receivers. You should give HDMI a try with your Denon and a good BluRay Concert or Movie. Those Lossless soundtracks are amazing.

 

[sterling shoote]

This thread supports my disappointment in today's consumer electronics in general; but, especially, the AVRs and Pre/pros out there today. Turning the volume control on any reveals these units are not built anything like products from the 1990's. My Sony TA-E9000es is still working swell; and, having updated it with the addition of an Airport Express, as well as a Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi HD, I can see the system lasting me another 20 years. Since my system is satisfying, I fortunately have no need to consider any of today's pre/pros, certainly not for the promise of a more "immersive sound". Over all, the stuff out there today I envision being in a dumpster in no time. The concept of "pride in ownership" seems to have no importance in today's consideration for desirable technology. BTW, who living back in the 1970's like me would have ever thought there would be a market for vintage electronics. Right now, that market is huge because folks who want top quality and something that they can afford as well have no place to go except for vintage.

 

[sterling shoote]

Gents, I never liked the sound of Sirius Sat Radio. Far too much compression for me. If you can ever do an A/B comparison with say a CD that's been well recorded, you'll certainly notice the difference. But each to their own.

Digital Downloads in FLAC can be excellent and well worth a listen.

In the olden days I used a PS3 for a bluray/dvd/cd player. It did an amazing job, but I never tried it for Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio. I used to be into Optical connections, and didn't have HDMI into my receivers. You should give HDMI a try with your Denon and a good BluRay Concert or Movie. Those Lossless soundtracks are amazing.

Not having an HDMI input on my pre/pro is the only thing I suffer. If I had one, I could enjoy multi-channel SACD without the need to purchase a relatively expensive OPPO player for such pleasure. Like you, I have no appreciation for XM Radio, except in my Tahoe. I still buy hybrid SACDs; but, most of my stereo music purchases today are made at the iTunes Store. I cannot distinguish AAC downloads coming from them with 24/96 downloads from HDtracks.

 

[Montucky]

This thread supports my disappointment in today's consumer electronics in general; but, especially, the AVRs and Pre/pros out there today. Turning the volume control on any reveals these units are not built anything like products from the 1990's.

I would have to disagree whole-heartedly. The problem is not with consumer electronics necessarily. The problem is with the consumer! Believe it or not, there ARE lots of wonderful electronics today that are built like absolute tanks. The issue is that most people aren't willing to pay for them. I have a Yamaha A-S2100 that I'd bet money any vintage fan would appreciate. Massive power supplies, huge caps, solid metal knobs, weighs a million pounds, has old school analog vu meters in that soft golden light. Sounds amazing, loads of power, and I'm willing to bet will last many decades of dependable use.

It seems pricey (it is), but when taking inflation into account it is no more expensive (actually cheaper) than its equivalent in the 70s. Back then, it seems that every middle class Joe had a nice hi-fi system in their home. I grew up with a proper Pioneer and a pair of giant towers, and my parents weren't even that huge into music. Now that the emphasis at homes has gone from big sound to big screens, too many consumers gasp at the thought of spending more than a few hundred bucks on audio.

I say this with authority as I owned a retail home theater store that I recently closed. Despite my love for my high end gear, I sold precisely ZERO high end Yamahas but a boatload of budget AVRs and sound bars. Despite my educating people, doing awesome demos, and them seeing such a drastic difference in quality and sound, 99% of customers just want the cheap stuff. SSSSOOOOO many people would comment about how "They just don't build stuff like they used to." At which point, I'd direct them to my middle to higher end gear, where then they'd balk at the price. Can't have it both ways folks.

Anyway, just thought I'd chime in because this is a very common misconception. They DO build stuff like they used to. You just have to pony up for it...just like you had to in the 70s. It wasn't cheap then either. That and you need to not bother with places like Best Buy/Wal-Mart/Target which are understandably all about high volume/low profit stuff that they can sell tons of. I.e. cheap consumer garbage. Go visit your local, proper home theater store or mom & pop audio shop. That's where it's at.

 

[sterling shoote]

I would have to disagree whole-heartedly. The problem is not with consumer electronics necessarily. The problem is with the consumer! Believe it or not, there ARE lots of wonderful electronics today that are built like absolute tanks. The issue is that most people aren't willing to pay for them. I have a Yamaha A-S2100 that I'd bet money any vintage fan would appreciate. Massive power supplies, huge caps, solid metal knobs, weighs a million pounds, has old school analog vu meters in that soft golden light. Sounds amazing, loads of power, and I'm willing to bet will last many decades of dependable use.

It seems pricey (it is), but when taking inflation into account it is no more expensive (actually cheaper) than its equivalent in the 70s. Back then, it seems that every middle class Joe had a nice hi-fi system in their home. I grew up with a proper Pioneer and a pair of giant towers, and my parents weren't even that huge into music. Now that the emphasis at homes has gone from big sound to big screens, too many consumers gasp at the thought of spending more than a few hundred bucks on audio.

I say this with authority as I owned a retail home theater store that I recently closed. Despite my love for my high end gear, I sold precisely ZERO high end Yamahas but a boatload of budget AVRs and sound bars. Despite my educating people, doing awesome demos, and them seeing such a drastic difference in quality and sound, 99% of customers just want the cheap stuff. SSSSOOOOO many people would comment about how "They just don't build stuff like they used to." At which point, I'd direct them to my middle to higher end gear, where then they'd balk at the price. Can't have it both ways folks.

Anyway, just thought I'd chime in because this is a very common misconception. They DO build stuff like they used to. You just have to pony up for it...just like you had to in the 70s. It wasn't cheap then either. That and you need to not bother with places like Best Buy/Wal-Mart/Target which are understandably all about high volume/low profit stuff that they can sell tons of. I.e. cheap consumer garbage. Go visit your local, proper home theater store or mom & pop audio shop. That's where it's at.

You're not really in any disagreement with me. Of course high-end is out there; but, over all, the market today for Home Theatre and Stereo does not have an appreciation for the high-end measure of quality, that you and I are accustomed, to pay for it. Thus, we have a parade of plastic cased components which would not satisfy us but suffice for others. My adult sons' have absolutely no interest in putting together the sort of system I enjoy, simply because it's not important to them. A big and cheap big screen with sound bar is all they appear to want.

 

[Montucky]

You're not really in any disagreement with me. Of course high-end is out there; but, over all, the market today for Home Theatre and Stereo does not have an appreciation for the high-end measure of quality, that you and I are accustomed, to pay for it. Thus, we have a parade of plastic cased components which would not satisfy us but suffice for others. My adult sons' have absolutely no interest in putting together the sort of system I enjoy, simply because it's not important to them. A big and cheap big screen with sound bar is all they appear to want.

Ah. Glad we're in agreement then. So it's less about the availability of good quality stuff, and more about what's feeding the masses overall.

 

[sterling shoote]

Ah. Glad we're in agreement then. So it's less about the availability of good quality stuff, and more about what's feeding the masses overall.

Yeah, you analyzed cause and effect, while I just alluded to the condition.

 

[ErrorUnknown]

I am still not quite sold on this new Denon ARV-x1300w.
Nice for movies not quite all there for music.
Thinking I need to hook up the old Denon-365r to see if I am just nutty.

I think I would like some thing that had less bells and whistles.
I don't need it to be talking to the internet whenever it wants, or wifi and that kinda stuff.
Might reduce cost...just a good 5 channel receiver.
Maybe there are some, but like you guys point out $300 is a lot easier to burn than $600-$1200.
I did pay full retail on the studio 40's back in 2003... Never will I regret that purchase.

While I like most of the Sirius channels, some are funky...I do like the CD sound better.
This AVR only has HDMI and 1 L/R. Somewhat limited.

I notice things like funky HVAC systems in buildings...that pressure variance. Others don't seem to notice it till I point it out. Not saying I am any kind of sound guru, just more sensitive I guess.

 

[lovinthehd]

Those are pretty much average bells and whistles on that avr, altho as you point out is a bit light on legacy connections (but does have optical in addition to composite and hdmi inputs). While there are some 5ch avrs still available, I doubt they're going to provide any particular benefit for you.

What is it about using it for music do you think it's lacking?

 

[ErrorUnknown]

Those are pretty much average bells and whistles on that avr, altho as you point out is a bit light on legacy connections (but does have optical in addition to composite and hdmi inputs). While there are some 5ch avrs still available, I doubt they're going to provide any particular benefit for you.

What is it about using it for music do you think it's lacking?

Not sure how to describe it...
Its feels like it shifted the frequency range into a higher spectrum.
Its like it lost the low range 'pressure' and is all really high frequency.
It is super clear/clean just seems like its hurting my ears when I turn it up.

Also notice that just turning 'on' the subwoofer adj. it sets it at +4db. Indicates 0.

I don't know... I will have to hook up the old receiver to see if I am just nutty...
Probably would be happy with a $1200 AVR...