Volume...room filling? not just turning up the dial, after new AVR

[ErrorUnknown]

Ok so first post, Here we go...
Background... Have been listening to tv, cds, and a lot of SiriusXM on DishNetwork.

Had been using a Denon DRA-365R since 1994.
New Pair of Paradigm Studio 40 v3 and Paradigm PS-1200 v4 subwoofer... back in 2003.
Could only turn it up to 1/2 to 3/4 on the volume dial and that thing would ROCK, house shaking, hurt your ears loud. Could never turn it up full blast. No excess heat.

A few weeks (4-5) ago I bought a Center Paradigm CC-470 (E-Bay, Nice!) and a Denon ARV-x1300w, scratch-n-dent off Crutchfields for $265. Pesky non stop adds sent via the Google Machine, suckered me in, on the Denon.
Unpacked it, looked like new, no scratch-or-dents.
Had wrong remote control. Never could get it to sound good, subwoofer blew a fuse for the first time in 14 years. Commercials would shake the house and Sirius would NOT. Looking at the board it had Ink pen check-marks on all the chips on the board. ??

Had to turn it...and this new one, up to 68-78 on the volume dial to really get any good sound out of it. It got really hot and would no longer turn on after 3 weeks...had 2 USB fans on it at the time.
Bi-amped on the Studio 40's.

Contacted Crutchfield's...they sent a new unit, seems to work better, no weird subwoofer over-kill on the commercials but it just doesn't sound like it did with the old setup, I am disappointed in the new Denon.
This thing gets really hot, 4 USB fans on it now, still have to turn it up to 68-78 to get any really rocking sound.

What's the deal here? Feels like it needs 2 to 4 more speakers!? Is this just part of the AVR sound?
The new Denon-X1300W sounds really clear and clean when you crank it up but it just doesn't really ROCK! If you know what I mean...?

Thanks

 

[TLS Guy]

Ok so first post, Here we go...
Background... Have been listening to tv, cds, and a lot of SiriusXM on DishNetwork.

Had been using a Denon DRA-365R since 1994.
New Pair of Paradigm Studio 40 v3 and Paradigm PS-1200 v4 subwoofer... back in 2003.
Could only turn it up to 1/2 to 3/4 on the volume dial and that thing would ROCK, house shaking, hurt your ears loud. Could never turn it up full blast. No excess heat.

A few weeks (4-5) ago I bought a Center Paradigm CC-470 (E-Bay, Nice!) and a Denon ARV-x1300w, scratch-n-dent off Crutchfields for $265. Pesky non stop adds sent via the Google Machine, suckered me in, on the Denon.
Unpacked it, looked like new, no scratch-or-dents.
Had wrong remote control. Never could get it to sound good, subwoofer blew a fuse for the first time in 14 years. Commercials would shake the house and Sirius would NOT. Looking at the board it had Ink pen check-marks on all the chips on the board. ??

Had to turn it...and this new one, up to 68-78 on the volume dial to really get any good sound out of it. It got really hot and would no longer turn on after 3 weeks...had 2 USB fans on it at the time.
Bi-amped on the Studio 40's.

Contacted Crutchfield's...they sent a new unit, seems to work better, no weird subwoofer over-kill on the commercials but it just doesn't sound like it did with the old setup, I am disappointed in the new Denon.
This thing gets really hot, 4 USB fans on it now, still have to turn it up to 68-78 to get any really rocking sound.

What's the deal here? Feels like it needs 2 to 4 more speakers!? Is this just part of the AVR sound?
The new Denon-X1300W sounds really clear and clean when you crank it up but it just doesn't really ROCK! If you know what I mean...?

Thanks

The position of the volume control is irrelevant. You turn it to the volume you want. Its that simple.

Modern AVRs are loaded with much more circuitry and complexity. Don't expect that receiver to last anywhere near a quarter century.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

Things have changed since 1994. Back then most receivers had motorized rheostats controlling the volume. These days it’s entirely electronic (e.g. the volume knob turns continuously with no physical “stops”).

As such, you can’t rely on “percent” (by that I guess you mean comparing the lowest to highest numerical reading) to tell you anything. The numbers on the display don’t necessarily have much to do with the “travel” of the volume knob. For instance, my receiver seems to get most of its “action” in the last 25% of “travel” (again, using the numbers as reference). As long as you’re getting as much volume as you were before, without distortion, there is nothing to be concerned about.

That said, you might check the trim levels of the individual speakers in the receiver’s menu. If they are all dialed down, you might bring them up closer to the top of the range.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[ErrorUnknown]

Right I get that I can just crank it up to 90 and burn it up in a year.
It just has not the "Fullness" of sound that it did.
Its clear/clean/loud...its like it reduced the size of the Studio 40's...if that makes sense?
The speaker levels are all good...on the AVR.

 

[Montucky]

I think your observation is correct. My old Technics from the same era totally cranks with seemingly less effort than many newer receivers. I believe this may be due to more sophisticated sound processing to be honest. Whereas my old receiver (which I still have and love) would behave much like yours, I'd be willing to bet our THD would be off the charts compared to the new stuff. I can hear much more nuance in tracks now. Everybody is also correct that we need to ignore the position of the volume dial as that is now practically irrelevant.

That all said, so much can be overcome easily with more powerful receivers and through playing with EQ. For example, I'm a huge Yamaha fanboy, and I think much of what they make under a grand sounds great, BUT the RX-A1070 is kind of my personal bare minimum to get the oomph I sometimes crave. Their MX-A5000 DEFINITELY gets me to where I want and beyond. This makes a GREAT case for separates or getting a receiver with preamp outputs so you can just toss in a more powerful amp whenever you want.

Your receiver is a bit entry level, which there's nothing wrong with that, but if you plugged your setup into a Denon AVR-X4400H or plugged even a mid-grade receiver into a nice external amp (like an Emotiva), you'd have a rocking setup that would probably even blow your old setup out of the water.

 

[sholling]

I'm not familiar with that Denon, but have you taken advantage of the room correction feature found in most modern AVRs?

Edit: I just looked up your receiver and it comes with Audyssey MultEQ XT which is pretty good room correction.

 

[lovinthehd]

The Denon X1300 is relatively nicely featured but not particularly a powerhouse for the amp section so depending on the distance you are from the speakers and how loud you like it, it just may not be the best tool for the job. Did you run Audyssey? Are you turning off the Dynamic Volume feature afterward (seems several avrs set this to on automatically)? Are you using the DynamicEQ feature? Do you know about RLO settings for music vs movies?

Not sure what kind of volume scale/control your old unit had, but the one you have is in dB and a logarithmic scale so of course the power increase is mostly towards the end of the dial so I don't think you've got anything off in that respect other than expectations. Most of us change it over to the relative vs absolute scale you seem to be using http://ca-denon.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/136/~/relative-and-absolute-volume-ranges

 

[pewternhrata]

I would get rid of the "bi amp" situation and see what that does for ya.

 

[lovinthehd]

I would get rid of the "bi amp" situation and see what that does for ya.

I totally missed the bi-amp thing, definitely a waste of time/wire.

 

[pewternhrata]

I totally missed the bi-amp thing, definitely a waste of time/wire.

I feel a biamp debate a brewing lol

 

[lovinthehd]

I feel a biamp debate a brewing lol

NOOOOOOOO!

 

[KEW]

It just has not the "Fullness" of sound that it did.
Its clear/clean/loud...its like it reduced the size of the Studio 40's...if that makes sense?

This would be my best guess of how to address your problem:

Are you using the DynamicEQ feature?

Do you know about RLO settings for music vs movies?

What is RLO?

 

[PENG]

Lots of good suggestion for Mr. Error already. I would just try to summarize everything below:

1. Ignore the volume position, but change it to the relative scale so it reads -79.5 to +18 instead of 0-98. Then you will find yourself be setting it to around -12 to -2 if you are at 68 to 78 now.

2. Before you run Audyssey, be sure to follow instructions including how to prepare the subwoofer, such as bypassing any filter, or if there is no bypass switch, set any low pass filters to "Maximum". Audyssey will take care of the rest.

2. Run Audyssey, again, follow instructions to the letter. After that, volume at "0" will be THX reference level for movies made to THX standard, and you probably should not listen louder than that anyway. Many of us could not listen to such loud level too long, and -10 to -15 would likely satisfy most.

3. After running Audyssey, do the following:

a) check the levels for all channels including the subwoofer, let us know what they are so we can answer your questions better if required. Feel free to bump the subwoofer level a couple of dB if you enjoy more bass than neutral.

b) If any of the speakers are set to large, change them to "SMALL" and set crossovers to 80 Hz or even 100 Hz for the Studio 40's. Your AVR (not Audyssey) will most likely set the L,R,C speakers to large, if you want things to rock, you really must change them to "SMALL".

c) Check that the Subwoofer LPF is in fact set to 120 or higher. If not, change it to 120 or 150.

d) Turn Dynamic Volume "OFF". Audyssey apparently turn it on by default.

e) Make sure Dynamic EQ is "ON".

4. The newer D&M models do tend to run warm, I would say up to 45 deg C on top of the cover is okay but it always help to have a fan or 2. I have one on top and another at the back that blows air towards the front. If you do that, as TLSGuy mentioned, don't expect it to last anywhere near a quarter century but I think 7 to 10 years should be possible.

5. The AVR-X1300W is a light weight entry level unit and it may not be suitable for your speakers depending on your room size, sitting distance and required SPL (sound pressure level in dB unit). Use the online calculator linked below to find out what kind of SPL it spits out if you punch in 80 W for amp power output.

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

 

[lovinthehd]

What is RLO?

Reference Level Offset...an adjustment for DynamicEQ for different types of source material. https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347383-Dynamic-EQ-and-Reference-Level

 

[lovinthehd]

d) Turn Dynamic Volume "OFF". Audyssey apparently turn it on by default.

Denon decided to enable it via the running of Audyssey is more like it, just as with setting speakers to large when using a sub.

 

[ErrorUnknown]

No bi-amp, sorry, maybe bi-wired is more correct.
Had been, on the old DRA-365, running A+B, A to the high side and B to the low side of the speakers. Actually sounded a little cleaner than just the single wire...I though.

The burnt AVR-x1300w I did front to high side and surround rear to low side speaker.
This new AVR1300 I just used a single wire, Acoustic Research 16awg.


Thanks for the input everyone, I will run the Audyssey, have not with this new AVR.
I did it with the burnt one, I though it sounded worse and it castrated the sub...but that AVR was not right.

My room is an acoustically terrible funky shape. 20ft by 24ft vaulted to about 12ft in the center. Hallway in the middle of the South wall and open stairway on the North side going down, 2/3 carpet, 1/3 lino.

Also I don't like the low level subwoofer interaction with...mostly everything.
TV commercials shake the house, movies just kinda bump and music is sad, like its missing parts and not talking to the receiver correctly.
It seems to want to try and adjust itself between channels, looses the center because it switches to stereo.
I set all the outputs to multi-channel stereo.

I will play with it some more.
Thanks gang!

 

[lovinthehd]

No bi-amp, sorry, maybe bi-wired is more correct.
Had been, on the old DRA-365, running A+B, A to the high side and B to the low side of the speakers. Actually sounded a little cleaner than just the single wire...I though.

The burnt AVR-x1300w I did front to high side and surround rear to low side speaker.
This new AVR1300 I just used a single wire, Acoustic Research 16awg.


Thanks for the input everyone, I will run the Audyssey, have not with this new AVR.
I did it with the burnt one, I though it sounded worse and it castrated the sub...but that AVR was not right.

My room is an acoustically terrible funky shape. 20ft by 24ft vaulted to about 12ft in the center. Hallway in the middle of the South wall and open stairway on the North side going down, 2/3 carpet, 1/3 lino.
View attachment 23146

Also I don't like the low level subwoofer interaction with...mostly everything.
TV commercials shake the house, movies just kinda bump and music is sad, like its missing parts and not talking to the receiver correctly.
It seems to want to try and adjust itself between channels, looses the center because it switches to stereo.
I set all the outputs to multi-channel stereo.

I will play with it some more.
Thanks gang!

That's a large room for a relatively small sub, could be part of the problem. Many of us bump up subwoofer level a few dB after running Audyssey, and using DynamicEQ will boost bass at below reference volume levels (and try adjusting the RLO I mentioned for movies vs music, default is for movies).

I wouldn't use a multi-ch stereo mode except for a party. It's not going to process your center properly at all (just sums the L/R and outputs that thru the center). Stereo mode wouldn't use a center, you'd need a surround mode for that. The avr will generally default to the source in terms of sound mode, but if you change it for a particular input it should remember it for that input (so 2.0 is normally handled as stereo mode unless you set it to matrix into a surround mode like Dolby Surround or DTS, it may remember that for the next time that input/source audio is used, but if you change channels to a show with 5.1 audio then the avr would change to whatever you set it for, etc.). The manual should explain your options.

 

[-Jim-]

I ran the calculator and assumed a 14 foot distance, and an average of 88 dB for the 3 speakers. This results in 102.2 dB SPL at the Listening Position. So if you set the Denon ARV-x1300w up correctly, you should be able to hurt yourself before clipping occurs. (Not that I'd suggest you do so.)

Like the others I'd strongly suggest you re-run the set-up and ensure the cross overs are set as suggested above. However, you may want to move the Sub right into the corner to maximise the gain.

Afterwards, if you still find the bass lacking, I'd experiment (why not?) and move the crossover point down in 10 Hz steps for the Studio 40s (down to 60 Hz if needed, but only to 70 Hz for the Paradigm CC-470). Moving the couch away from the half wall a few feet, and adding some surrounds on the half wall will also help the overall sound for movies, TV, and blue ray concerts.

Using the mute button is the only way I can effectively deal with some TV Commercials. (I don't like this either, but I'm sometimes amazed at how much effort the Commercials put into their sounds whereas most TV Producers fail to make good use of the potential.) Good Luck tweaking this setup to your liking.

 

[lovinthehd]

When you do run Audyssey use all the mic positions and I'd recommend #1 be at your usual ear position then a circle of 1.5-2 ft radius around that for the rest.

 

[ErrorUnknown]

Thought I should check back in.

Glad you guys pointed out the fact that this system was indeed getting loud.
After a hour or two blasting it, I turned it down, it felt like I had cotton in my ears.
After years of listing to that old Denon, I think I got used to the noise I thought was music.
This AVR feels like it focus's the sound more directly.
That old one you would turn it up then it would 'crackle' (thought the tweets were going out, but no) Low power 43w I guess.
This new one I could never turn it up all the way.

A lot of the subwoofer is to do with the front 'small/large' setting...didn't realize that before.
Still I find I want +0.5 subwoofer(channel level adjust) +1 bass(tone) for music but not for movies.
A pain to change all the time, but hey this stuff is all new to me still playing with it.

This site is as bad as that Toyota site I frequent too often.
Re-arranged the living room, Had a book shelf on that south wall to the right of the TV. Moved it to the NW corner.
Snagged a used set of Paradigm Studio 100 v3! Moved the Sub to the SW wall/corner (more boomy).
Can see music acoustic rings forming in my coffee cup, from the center out to the sides...neat.
One PS-100 had a screw come loose in shipping, back of the mid-range holding the aluminum cone.
I couldn't find any pics of pull aparts...so here you go.
That mid sits in a metal 'bucket'.
Just the screws holding the driver on the cabinet. The rubber gasket kinda stuck the speaker down.
Gentle (little) prybar action pulled it right off.

Now I need to figure out a more appealing AV area...and where to put the 40's. ahh dilemmas.

Also this AVR-X1300W seems like it is not getting as hot with these studio 100's as it did with the studio 40's...thought that was weird.