Looking for help on subwoofer and speaker placement

[UR2SLO]

Hello Folks,

I currently have room with an existing 5.1 setup and now upgrading to a new 9.2 setup. I have attached a few pictures of the room itself and a general drawing of the room. The speakers on the floor will basically stay the same, but do not know the ideal location for 2 subwoofers and the additional 4 ceiling speakers. The drawing shows 3 different subwoofer locations A1/A2, B1/B2, and C1,C2. The green circles are symbols for the ceiling speakers, however I do not know which configuration is correct such as A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, and D2. I've seen people place 2 pairs of speakers perpendicular to each other and some offset who them. For example, one pair can be 3 feet apart and the other pair is 6 feet apart instead of having both pairs be 6 feet apart. Would appreciate anyones thoughts/recommendations on this matter.

Thanks!

 

[-Jim-]

Welcome to the Forum. Lots of good advice here.

Your initial plan for the 2 Subs is probably reasonable to begin with but not optimal. But if you really want to find that sweet spot, try the Subwoofer Crawl method. Also check this out on multiple Subs :

However, what you are really looking to do is a 5.2.4 layout. Probably as Dolby Atmos. I just wired our Games Room so check out that here: https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/waf-a-new-beginning-where-should-one-start.108444/ The diagram on page 3 may be helpful.

One of our Cyber Buddies here (William Lemmerhirt) posted this link to Dolby Atmos Installation Guidlines: Check it out!

https://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmos/dolby-atmos-home-theater-installation-guidelines.pdf

IMHO, I'd move your couch towards the Screen if possible to allow for some depth in the sound field and put one Sub back there to see how effective it would be.

By the way, please post all the equipment manufacturers and model numbers.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[yepimonfire]

The two surrounds should be facing the couch at a 90 degree angle, not firing towards the front of the room. I’d place them just a bit in front of the seat backs so the tweeters and drivers aren’t blocked. Try a1 and a2 for the sub first and see how it sounds. Also need to toe those fronts in a bit. I agree, move the couch forward.

 

[UR2SLO]

The two surrounds should be facing the couch at a 90 degree angle, not firing towards the front of the room. I’d place them just a bit in front of the seat backs so the tweeters and drivers aren’t blocked. Try a1 and a2 for the sub first and see how it sounds. Also need to toe those fronts in a bit. I agree, move the couch forward.

I am bit confused at your comment. On the drawing aren't the two floor standing rear speakers already positioned to be a abit in front of the seat backs? Perhaps if you have the time you show me what your describing by editing my drawing and placing the speakers where you are recommending them to be. When you say "toe those fronts in a bit" you mean like angle there position so they aren't flat against the wall? Or don't place them on each end of the screen wall like they were previously and instead put them a couple feet inside of each end of the screen wall.

Moving the couch forward isn't really an option given the room layout with the fireplace and the relatively small size of 13.5 feet deep.

 

[yepimonfire]

The rear speakers are facing out into the room. They’re actually not “rears” but side surrounds. They should be pointed at the seats, not the front wall.

Yes, the speakers should be aimed at the middle seat. How far is the couch from the center between the two speakers? What is the distance between the two speakers? I would scoot the couch left a bit and try to place the surrounds a bit further apart to avoid hotspotting and obstruction for other viewers.

 

[2channel lover]

Hello Folks,

I currently have room with an existing 5.1 setup and now upgrading to a new 9.2 setup. I have attached a few pictures of the room itself and a general drawing of the room. The speakers on the floor will basically stay the same, but do not know the ideal location for 2 subwoofers and the additional 4 ceiling speakers. The drawing shows 3 different subwoofer locations A1/A2, B1/B2, and C1,C2. The green circles are symbols for the ceiling speakers, however I do not know which configuration is correct such as A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, and D2. I've seen people place 2 pairs of speakers perpendicular to each other and some offset who them. For example, one pair can be 3 feet apart and the other pair is 6 feet apart instead of having both pairs be 6 feet apart. Would appreciate anyones thoughts/recommendations on this matter.

Thanks!

Welcome!

You have the makings of a nice HT!

Doing some quick math based on the layout provided...the space is roughly 2000 cu ft assuming an 8' ceiling...2 decent subs should be very good...I would start with them in the A1/A2 position and run a room eq software such as Audyssey...move them around and run it again, but the main screen wall will probably work.

One critical note to repeat...pull the seating away from the back wall about 3 or 4 ft if possible...you're not doing your SQ any favors with the seat against the back wall.

5.2.4 is what I have for a room slightly larger (2800 cu ft) than yours...I can't see you needing much more than 4 Atmos speakers.

I tried one sub along the TV wall, centered best I could and the other near field behind the main seating...I really liked the near field experience...but for music I was having some localization issues with the bass and it just seemed awkward. I ended up moving them both to the TV wall flanking the screen, but at some point I expect I'll break down and add a 3rd sub to get that nearfield experience back.

Good luck with it.

 

[yepimonfire]

Welcome!

You have the makings of a nice HT!

Doing some quick math based on the layout provided...the space is roughly 2000 cu ft assuming an 8' ceiling...2 decent subs should be very good...I would start with them in the A1/A2 position and run a room eq software such as Audyssey...move them around and run it again, but the main screen wall will probably work.

One critical note to repeat...pull the seating away from the back wall about 3 or 4 ft if possible...you're not doing your SQ any favors with the seat against the back wall.

5.2.4 is what I have for a room slightly larger (2800 cu ft) than yours...I can't see you needing much more than 4 Atmos speakers.

I tried one sub along the TV wall, centered best I could and the other near field behind the main seating...I really liked the near field experience...but for music I was having some localization issues with the bass and it just seemed awkward. I ended up moving them both to the TV wall flanking the screen, but at some point I expect I'll break down and add a 3rd sub to get that nearfield experience back.

Good luck with it.

Now that I think of it, OP might actually get the best height imaging by doing a front height/top middle arrangement.

Top front and top rear are supposed to be at a 45 degree angle of elevation, not happening with the sofa near the wall, even if it was pulled out more. Top middle is 65-100 degrees, personally, I find 65-70 works much better, our ability to perceive sounds as emanating from above breaks down at 90 degrees or greater, I’ve tried both 80 degrees and 70 degrees, at 80 degrees, it was difficult to pinpoint a sound as coming from above, at 70 degrees, it was much better.

You really need to pull the couch out like others stated, at least no less than 1-2’. This should also allow you to place the surrounds at 110 degrees vs 90, which is recommended for 5.1.x atmos setups.considering the height of the seat backs, might get some cinderblocks to elevate the speakers a bit.

Good choice on towers for the surrounds! I always strongly recommend that all speakers in a setup be fully capable of full bandwidth, high dynamic range peaks. Every time I see a setup with monster L/R speakers and tiny center/surrounds, a small part of me dies inside

Looks like you’ve got Polk Audio speakers, no?

 

[2channel lover]

Now that I think of it, OP might actually get the best height imaging by doing a front height/top middle arrangement.

Top front and top rear are supposed to be at a 45 degree angle of elevation, not happening with the sofa near the wall, even if it was pulled out more. Top middle is 65-100 degrees, personally, I find 65-70 works much better, our ability to perceive sounds as emanating from above breaks down at 90 degrees or greater, I’ve tried both 80 degrees and 70 degrees, at 80 degrees, it was difficult to pinpoint a sound as coming from above, at 70 degrees, it was much better.

You really need to pull the couch out like others stated, at least no less than 1-2’. This should also allow you to place the surrounds at 110 degrees vs 90, which is recommended for 5.1.x atmos setups.considering the height of the seat backs, might get some cinderblocks to elevate the speakers a bit.

Good choice on towers for the surrounds! I always strongly recommend that all speakers in a setup be fully capable of full bandwidth, high dynamic range peaks. Every time I see a setup with monster L/R speakers and tiny center/surrounds, a small part of me dies inside

Looks like you’ve got Polk Audio speakers, no?

Good stuff on all the angles, etc...I have 4 in ceiling atmos speakers and

Maybe I can resurrect a small part of you...

I've already told my son he can have my B&Ws when he's ready to move out, but when my new mains get here, I plan to move them to the rear in lieu of the RBH Rb5i to see if there really is much of a difference.

I'm not sure movies ever get a full range signal sent to the surrounds, but multi-channel audio has me rethinking my book shelf side surrounds.

 

[UR2SLO]

The rear speakers are facing out into the room. They’re actually not “rears” but side surrounds. They should be pointed at the seats, not the front wall.



Yes, the speakers should be aimed at the middle seat. How far is the couch from the center between the two speakers? What is the distance between the two speakers? I would scoot the couch left a bit and try to place the surrounds a bit further apart to avoid hotspotting and obstruction for other viewers.

The distance between the two front speakers are essentially 13 feet as they're placed at the ends of that front wall that measures 13 feet. In terms of the ceiling surround speakers what letters do you recommend on the drawing? The maximum distance I could put 2 pairs of ceiling speakers apart from each other is around 32 inches (2 16" floor joist spacings), which is basically one pair right above the rear of the seat above a person's head and the other pair right in front of the seat.

the speaker looks nice!

Thanks, however those speakers will not be used with the new room setup/renovation.

 

[UR2SLO]

Welcome!

You have the makings of a nice HT!

Doing some quick math based on the layout provided...the space is roughly 2000 cu ft assuming an 8' ceiling...2 decent subs should be very good...I would start with them in the A1/A2 position and run a room eq software such as Audyssey...move them around and run it again, but the main screen wall will probably work.

One critical note to repeat...pull the seating away from the back wall about 3 or 4 ft if possible...you're not doing your SQ any favors with the seat against the back wall.

5.2.4 is what I have for a room slightly larger (2800 cu ft) than yours...I can't see you needing much more than 4 Atmos speakers.

I tried one sub along the TV wall, centered best I could and the other near field behind the main seating...I really liked the near field experience...but for music I was having some localization issues with the bass and it just seemed awkward. I ended up moving them both to the TV wall flanking the screen, but at some point I expect I'll break down and add a 3rd sub to get that nearfield experience back.

Good luck with it.

I currently ripped out all the wiring and do not have anything hooked up at the moment so testing around is a a bit difficult. I understand that moving the seating 3-4 feet is ideal however given the the room is only 13.5 feet, which is fairly small to begin with moving the seating 3-4 feet would create a lot of dead space behind the couch. Also it would give the effect that the room got much smaller as soon as you get in to the room if you know what i mean. Right now the seating is about 8-10 inches from the back wall to allow the seats to recline if that matters.

Will keep your suggestions in mind on subwoofer placement. Thanks

 

[UR2SLO]

Now that I think of it, OP might actually get the best height imaging by doing a front height/top middle arrangement.

Top front and top rear are supposed to be at a 45 degree angle of elevation, not happening with the sofa near the wall, even if it was pulled out more. Top middle is 65-100 degrees, personally, I find 65-70 works much better, our ability to perceive sounds as emanating from above breaks down at 90 degrees or greater, I’ve tried both 80 degrees and 70 degrees, at 80 degrees, it was difficult to pinpoint a sound as coming from above, at 70 degrees, it was much better.

You really need to pull the couch out like others stated, at least no less than 1-2’. This should also allow you to place the surrounds at 110 degrees vs 90, which is recommended for 5.1.x atmos setups.considering the height of the seat backs, might get some cinderblocks to elevate the speakers a bit.

Good choice on towers for the surrounds! I always strongly recommend that all speakers in a setup be fully capable of full bandwidth, high dynamic range peaks. Every time I see a setup with monster L/R speakers and tiny center/surrounds, a small part of me dies inside

Looks like you’ve got Polk Audio speakers, no?

The downside to the floor standing to the rear is that they're significantly deeper than bookshelves at 15-16", which is not helping my out given where my sofas are, but what can you do hahaha. I was told the performance of standing speakers in the rear would be better than bookshelves though.

Yes, there were Polk Audio's in the room previously, but all of it is getting removed for a new system when the room renovations are complete.

 

[2channel lover]

The distance between the two front speakers are essentially 13 feet as they're placed at the ends of that front wall that measures 13 feet. In terms of the ceiling surround speakers what letters do you recommend on the drawing? The maximum distance I could put 2 pairs of ceiling speakers apart from each other is around 32 inches (2 16" floor joist spacings), which is basically one pair right above the rear of the seat above a person's head and the other pair right in front of the seat.







Thanks, however those speakers will not be used with the new room setup/renovation.

On the Atmos inceiling.

Your B1 & B2 spots are good...I think you need to move the A1 and A2 one rafter forward. I think you'd have pretty good coverage with 6" or 8" speakers.

This assuming you move the sofa out from the wall.

 

[2channel lover]

I currently ripped out all the wiring and do not have anything hooked up at the moment so testing around is a a bit difficult. I understand that moving the seating 3-4 feet is ideal however given the the room is only 13.5 feet, which is fairly small to begin with moving the seating 3-4 feet would create a lot of dead space behind the couch. Also it would give the effect that the room got much smaller as soon as you get in to the room if you know what i mean. Right now the seating is about 8-10 inches from the back wall to allow the seats to recline if that matters.

Will keep your suggestions in mind on subwoofer placement. Thanks

My room is like 18w x 16d x 9h...I feel you on the seating against the back wall. My wife thought it looked silly, it did create dead space behind it (I was going to put a console table behind it to get some function out of it), but the SQ did improve and that's what I'm all about. My HT space is the upstairs loft area...while not completely free from WAF...she let's me have my way up there for the most part.

On the subs...what the HSU sales guy told me...in a room with 4 walls you will do okay with them along the TV wall most of the time. I wouldn't take that to mean all the time, but I wouldn't stress over placement too much...especially having two for movies mostly.

 

[-Jim-]

Hi again,

I knew the group here would be full of ideas and suggestions. If you read the thread I started, you'll notice I am going through this now. My Games Room is a little larger, and frankly fitting in 4 Dolby Atmos speakers along with the typical 7 ear level speakers was tough to do without deviating from Dolby standards. In your case (unlike mine where the seating is about in the middle of the room) you will need to shift the seating forward towards the screen.

The front Atmos speakers should be mounted in line with the Front Towers (see sketch below), and the Rear Surround Towers positioned 90-110° mark, say from the middle seat. I put them into the corners, but as the sketch is not to scale, please adjust to suit. If you want rear Atmos speakers, and I'm really not convinced you can really use them - and definitely not if you don't move the seating; they too need to be inline with the fronts and at a 45-55° angle from the middle seat no more than a minimum of 3’ between the surrounds and atmos speakers. Again the drawing is not to scale, so you'll need to see if the Rear Atmos speaker placement in the sketch works for you.

You'll notice that I moved the Front Towers inside the Subs as you have quite a wide screen and I thought the front soundstage would be adequate this way, and the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) a bit more positive. You haven't indicated what speakers you are considering (nor any electronics) as all we know is what has been shown won't be used. I'm not on the same page as others here (and maybe it's because I don't have tons of $$ to spend on this ), I'm a fan of putting most of the Speaker spend on the 3 Fronts and Subs, and less on the Surrounds and Atmos. Spending a ton of cash for equipment and then setting it up poorly is what I see all the time when folks complain "it didn't sound like that in the store". I do recommend speakers be set at ear height when listening (about 40 inches in my case). So putting decent bookshelf speakers for the surrounds will not significantly impact the experience as so little program material is fed to them. Of course if you've already purchased or built something =>fine; or if it's all about bragging rights, I'll understand. But for most, I think towers for surrounds are overkill if the Fronts and Subs are chosen well.

By the way, the Sub positions can be moved after the fact as long as you have a nearby wall plug and use a wireless kit if hard wiring is too onerous.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[yepimonfire]

Hi again,

I knew the group here would be full of ideas and suggestions. If you read the thread I started, you'll notice I am going through this now. My Games Room is a little larger, and frankly fitting in 4 Dolby Atmos speakers along with the typical 7 ear level speakers was tough to do without deviating from Dolby standards. In your case (unlike mine where the seating is about in the middle of the room) you will need to shift the seating forward towards the screen.

The front Atmos speakers should be mounted in line with the Front Towers (see sketch below), and the Rear Surround Towers positioned 90-110° mark, say from the middle seat. I put them into the corners, but as the sketch is not to scale, please adjust to suit. If you want rear Atmos speakers, and I'm really not convinced you can really use them - and definitely not if you don't move the seating; they too need to be inline with the fronts and at a 45-55° angle from the middle seat no more than a minimum of 3’ between the surrounds and atmos speakers. Again the drawing is not to scale, so you'll need to see if the Rear Atmos speaker placement in the sketch works for you.

You'll notice that I moved the Front Towers inside the Subs as you have quite a wide screen and I thought the front soundstage would be adequate this way, and the WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor) a bit more positive. You haven't indicated what speakers you are considering (nor any electronics) as all we know is what has been shown won't be used. I'm not on the same page as others here (and maybe it's because I don't have tons of $$ to spend on this ), I'm a fan of putting most of the Speaker spend on the 3 Fronts and Subs, and less on the Surrounds and Atmos. Spending a ton of cash for equipment and then setting it up poorly is what I see all the time when folks complain "it didn't sound like that in the store". I do recommend speakers be set at ear height when listening (about 40 inches in my case). So putting decent bookshelf speakers for the surrounds will not significantly impact the experience as so little program material is fed to them. Of course if you've already purchased or built something =>fine; or if it's all about bragging rights, I'll understand. But for most, I think towers for surrounds are overkill if the Fronts and Subs are chosen well.

By the way, the Sub positions can be moved after the fact as long as you have a nearby wall plug and use a wireless kit if hard wiring is too onerous.

View attachment 23028

I hope this is helpful.

That diagram looks much better.

You are incorrect in stating Little is sent to the surrounds. The surround channels contain full range sound at a comparable level to the l/r channels, especially in action movies. Even when there are no effects being played through the surrounds, nearly every movie soundtrack is mixed as a multichannel track, so music would be playing from all 5 channels. Try unhooking the fronts and listening to just the surrounds one time and you’ll notice just how much sound is sent to them.

Honestly, the main benefit of a tower vs bookshelf is bass extension, which isn’t a big deal with bass management in HT. In most home theaters, the surrounds are close than the fronts as well. If the fronts are 13’ away and the surrounds are 6.5’ away, the surrounds will actually be at a 6dB advantage assuming they’re equal in sensitivity.

Let’s assume the fronts are rated 92dB and the bookshelf surrounds 89dB. Since spl drops 6dB for each doubling of distance, and the surrounds are 3dB less sensitive, and half as far as the fronts, the surrounds would now be at a 3dB advantage, meaning that the same spl level can be achieved from the surrounds using half of the power as the fronts.

If you go by thx and Dolby specs, all channels should be capable of 85dB with peaks of 105dB at the listening position. That includes the surrounds. Less capable surrounds can theoretically be used if they’re placed closer to the couch, but a system that incorporates monster towers in the front and tiny satellites for the surrounds is a poorly designed system.

In order of importance, I’d go with Center channel, subs, then L/R and surrounds equally. 60-70% of the soundtrack, including loud effects comes from the center, so get the biggest, baddest you can find.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Imo, if the couch can’t come off the back wall there’s not much point in using rear heights. However if you can use Jim’s diagram, that would likely work well although A1/A2 should come back towards the LP a little. Ideally if you put a line from A1 to B2 and A2 to B1c it should intersect above the LP. Like this.

 

[UR2SLO]

Haven't been on here for a while been busy with work and finished the tear down of the entire room. Attached some new pictures of the seating positions and drawing. The seating can move abit more further away from the wall and towards the screen say 3-4", but thats about it as it would cover the fireplace and make the room look odd/tight when you get in (look at pics). Its a 30 year old home and have to live with the size and layout it currently is as there really was nothing I could change in terms of restructuring/framing given where the fireplace is. If this was a new basement build and the room was more larger and open concept it would open up a number of possibilities for me that would definitely be better than the room I am doing now, but it is what it is.

Can anyone help me out on the placement of four in ceiling speakers. I am now able to put one pair of behind the seating (previously couldn't cause of hvac work in the way).

Thanks!

 

[2channel lover]

Haven't been on here for a while been busy with work and finished the tear down of the entire room. Attached some new pictures of the seating positions and drawing. The seating can move abit more further away from the wall and towards the screen say 3-4", but thats about it as it would cover the fireplace and make the room look odd/tight when you get in (look at pics). Its a 30 year old home and have to live with the size and layout it currently is as there really was nothing I could change in terms of restructuring/framing given where the fireplace is. If this was a new basement build and the room was more larger and open concept it would open up a number of possibilities for me that would definitely be better than the room I am doing now, but it is what it is.

Can anyone help me out on the placement of four in ceiling speakers. I am now able to put one pair of behind the seating (previously couldn't cause of hvac work in the way).

Thanks!

It is what it is...most of us come to that conclusion.

Somewhere in between the B1 and C1 position imo for the front height if you wanted 4 total.