Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

Do Amplifiers Sound Different?

  • Yes

    Votes: 105 60.3%
  • No

    Votes: 53 30.5%
  • crikets crickets....What?

    Votes: 16 9.2%

  • Total voters
    174
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
When I switched from my technics AVR to my present day Yamaha, the difference in sound between the two AVRs became apparent during extremely loud settings where I started to reach the limits of the Technics sooner than the limits of the Yamaha. Only when I pushed the Yamaha did I hear similar compression that I experienced earlier on with the Technics.
Technics? For some reason I was under the impression that before Yamaha you were a NAD fan, no?
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
NAD (New Audio Dimension) were revolutionary when first entering the market in the late 1970's. Their concept of designing audio in the UK with unique circuit topology, and then having them manufactured in non-traditional Asian factories (Malaysia, Taiwan, the Philippines, South Korea, versus Japanese factories) that simply followed a put-and-place procedure and with firms that were not traditionally audio manufacturers (instead making generic electronics products) that cut costs significantly versus the market overall.

For a while NAD enjoyed a competitive advantage in the market.

When the People's Republic of China* first allowed this kind of manufacturing and export sales (it's hard to believe, but that was only in 2004) there was a huge shift in manufacturing location and processes by the Japanese-based holdouts. This eventually replaced the traditional Japanese "T-dot" system (which had been just as revolutionary, giving Japanese manufacturers a competitive advantage in the late 1960's versus North American and European manufacturers).

Today everybody does what NAD introduced, and that competitive advantage is no longer there for NAD. Broadly speaking there is a line between older NAD gear and the current offerings where the advantages were apparent and now non-existant.

* "China" now = the PRC; it used to refer to Taiwan in the non-Communist nations.
 
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M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
NAD (New Audio Dimension) were revolutionary when first entering the market in the late 1970's. Their concept of designing audio in the UK with unique circuit topology, and then having them manufactured in non-traditional Asian factories (Malaysia, Taiwan, the Philippines, South Korea, versus Japanese factories) that simply followed a put-and-place procedure and with firms that were not traditionally audio manufacturers (instead making generic electronics products) that cut costs significantly versus the market overall.

For a while NAD enjoyed a competitive advantage in the market.

When the People's Republic of China* first allowed this kind of manufacturing and export sales (it's hard to believe, but that was only in 2004) there was a huge shift in manufacturing location and processes by the Japanese-based holdouts. This eventually replaced the traditional Japanese "T-dot" system (which had been just as revolutionary, giving Japanese manufacturers a competitive advantage in the late 1960's versus North American and European manufacturers).

Today everybody does what NAD introduced, and that competitive advantage is no longer there for NAD.

* "China" now = the PRC; it used to refer to Taiwan in the non-Communist nations.
The NAD product that really started their establishment as a respected audio component brand was the 3020 integrated amplifier introduced in 1979 which was modeled after the highly sucessfull Marantz 1060 which was released in 1972 becoming the best selling integrated amplifier in global, audio history. The Marantz 1060 amplifier sold >650,000 units in its 5 years of production. A big selling point of the NAD 3020 was its soft clipping circuit, even though it was rated at a low power output spec of 20W/channel into 8 Ohms and doubled this to 40W/channel into 4 Ohms. It was very capable of driving the majority of loudspeakers. Since its primary target market of the 3020 was Europe, though the 3020 had modest power output specs it met fully the requirements in Europe where they didn't require the same marketing push for high power output specs like in the USA.

Fast forward to present, NAD builds the majority of their products through a well-qualified subcontractor located in Nanjing, China. I have visited this factory many times, and there they actually build for many of the major audio brands for a wide-range of consumer, pro-audio, multi-media and CEDIA installer products.

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
The NAD product that really started their establishment as a respected audio component brand was the 3020 integrated amplifier introduced in 1979 which was modeled after the highly sucessfull Marantz 1060 which was released in 1972 becoming the best selling integrated amplifier in global, audio history. The Marantz 1060 amplifier sold >650,000 units in its 5 years of production. A big selling point of the NAD 3020 was its soft clipping circuit, even though it was rated at a low power output spec of 20W/channel into 8 Ohms and doubled this to 40W/channel into 4 Ohms. It was very capable of driving the majority of loudspeakers. Since its primary target market of the 3020 was Europe, though the 3020 had modest power output specs it met fully the requirements in Europe where they didn't require the same marketing push for high power output specs like in the USA.

Fast forward to present, NAD builds the majority of their products through a well-qualified subcontractor located in Nanjing, China. I have visited this factory many times, and there they actually build for many of the major audio brands for a wide-range of consumer, pro-audio, multi-media and CEDIA installer products.

Just my $0.02... ;)
Yes, as I said, they all moved to China in the last decade. I don't view NAD as inferior to the competition, just that to separate themselves from the market competitors is difficult today versus the 90's and earlier.

Contract manufacturing for a number of brand labels was the innovative feature of the T-dot system in Japan. It's no surprise it still remains to an extent.

Where it differs is the Japanese OEMs didn't have to hand-hold and inspect for back-dooring, parts substitutions, counterfeit parts, and so on as is needed in the current PRC situation. Many companies do it right, with permanent company staff ("boots on the ground)" in the PRC that insure a good product; others think they can manage it from offshore, which is almost always a mistake.

I am very familiar with the 3020 (sold perhaps a few hundred of them) and still have an old AM/FM receiver with the 25 watt version of the 3020 "Soft Clipping" circuit. I could do much worse, actually, it's installed on my test bench, hooked to a pair of Energy Take5's.

Thanks for your post.
 
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Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Going somewhat further on the T-dot System in Japan, broadly speaking the factories were anonymous, unknown (outside of the industry insiders) manufacturers who would produce branded products for OEMs (SONY, Sansui, Kenwood, Pioneer, etc) completely ... that is the product came out of the factory as a boxed, branded unit.

Broadly speaking OEMs would manufacture their highest-priced products (Receivers, Amplifiers, etc) in owned factories but sent mid and lower-priced design criteria to the T-dot factories. In many cases the T-dot developed the product from scratch, designing the circuit and PCBs themselves based on broad criteria from the OEM.

Some brands (notably Accuphase, Luxman) did some or all manufacturing in-house, but these were rare and you could tell by the MSRP in any case, which wasn't low by any means.

In the early and mid 1970's the label on the back panel would indicate products manufactured under this system, with a logo (a "T" with a dot on top) and number, indicating which factory did the work.

By the late 1970's the T-dot mark was omitted from the labels but the practice remained. Companies like Jelco built most tonearms, Matsushita (Panasonic, Technics and at the time, JVC) built most DC direct drive motor assemblies which were incorporated into other OEMs products by the T-dot factory. Matsushita did manufacture their own turntables (with Jelco arms) but some other products went to T-dot factories. Matsushita and SONY were huge and did do a lot of their own manufacturing, but by no means all of it.

The original high quality cassette deck (Advent 201, very late 1960's, a US-based company) was contract-manufactured by Nakamichi. Nak was not a brand at the time; they got into the cassette business as a result of the contract with Advent and a decision to carry on with cassettes. Other major cassette deck manufactures were Alpine, TEAC, and a number of anonymous manufacturers.

It may seem strange today, but in the 1970's Japanese brands were considered inferior to European and North American manufactured equipment, much as it is today with offshore brands from less expensive labour regions of Asia. The "Made in California" Marantz gear was sought after once the company was sold to Japanese owners in the later part of the 1970's, again mirrored today with some "vintage" gear made prior to the 21st Century. By the late 1970's that badge had largely disappeared from Japanese made gear, but earlier it was very much evident.

A notable exception was Japanese loudspeakers, which never quite managed to overcome an inferior image until the Yamaha NS10M arrived in 1978, and found it's way, slowly, into recording studios. Some of the Technics linear phase units also saw moderate success in the late 70's.

It still is somewhat dominated by North American and UK manufacturers, although again PRC manufacturing is becoming the norm at least to a certain extent (especially raw drivers). Although there are exceptions, you could make an argument that Japanese manufactured speakers never really got a foothold in the market (even in Japan itself, where American made speakers have always dominated the high end), and today the opportunity is lost with PRC made units taking the trophy in that respect.

**

Dragging myself back on topic, it's my experience that not all amplifiers sound the same. I do prefer listening followed, if possible, by measuring. Certainly you can learn some clues about the "why" but not always. It does not matter to me that one amp has this design and the other has that; I'm not interested in manufacturing amplifiers, I just want something to listen with.

I don't see how auditioning by ear is incompatible with assessing a product whose job I will put it to is playing music with other equipment I may own or am considering.

If you failed, for example, to test some of the Class-A PASS amplifiers (just an example) with transient signals versus the standard continuous sine wave power output normally measured, you may miss the prodigious short term power ability (more than 100w) of these 25watt RMS (or so) units, and be mystified as to the Sound Quality they exhibit. Even the most complex input signal, one that can be reliably removed to measure intermodulation distortions, is orders of magnitude less complex than actual music. Listening and Testing go hand-in-hand if you really want answers.

**

I have an example of how amplifiers (or any component, from subtle to obvious) can sound different. If you are a laptop user, grab some music ... doesn't matter what, but less complex examples might be best, as it makes the areas to listen to a little easier to pick out ... and start playing it.

Because of a psyco-acoustic phenomena where humans are less critical of Sound Quality (SQ) when accompanied by visual cues, maybe a video isn't the best choice, when a music track is available, but it actually doesn't detract enough that this doesn't work.

Move the screen back, further than you normally view the screen. Listen to the sound (close your eyes if you want to help you concentrate). Move the screen slightly towards you, say by a half inch (12mm). Listen for changes.

Continue until the screen is getting closer to almost closed (where you can't view the screen anymore).

Now move the screen back to the original far away location. The music should be playing continuously during this time.

See how small a movement of the screen is needed before you can notice a sound difference. You may find rather subtle changes are now audible. You may even have difficulty deciding which one you prefer.

These are the kinds of differences you can expect when auditioning good, compatible gear vs another good, compatible alternative. It is not night-and-day, usually, but to say it's inaudible is really un-supportable.
 
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M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
It may seem strange today, but in the 1970's Japanese brands were considered inferior to European and North American manufactured equipment, much as it is today with offshore brands from less expensive labour regions of Asia. The "Made in California" Marantz gear was sought after once the company was sold to Japanese owners in the later part of the 1970's, again mirrored today with some "vintage" gear made prior to the 21st Century. By the late 1970's that badge had largely disappeared from Japanese made gear, but earlier it was very much evident.
U have some errors in the above paragraph. Marantz was bought from Saul Marantz in the mid-60s to SuperScope. SuperScope was the exclusive North American distributor for Sony and actually brought Sony Japan out of their garage operation in the late-50s. Through the 60s' and into the 70s Sony sales in the USA through SuperScope increased significantly, also SuperScope sold the Sony car audio and portable products as well. However as Sony sales increased Sony wanted the North America territory back, went into litigation and after a bitter, expensive legal fight eventually Sony got it back. But in the early 70s the SuperScope executive team, knew that they needed an audio brand for the growing global mass markets so they went to Japan and bought a bankrupt ODM factory called Standard Radio that then became Marantz Japan. Note that through the 60s Marantz had a factory in Woodside, NY and did build components such as preamps, amplifiers, tuners, turntables and a couple of high-end receivers models 18 & 19 there. But they knew to be competitive in the growing global receiver business they needed to source/build in Japan as building receivers in the USA was simply too expensive. The best selling Marantz receiver line was the 2230, 2270 selling >1 million receivers a year. The 2270 was rated @ 70 watts/channel but typically would measure 90W/channel. Today a well restored 2270 can sell for up to $1,000. Next the stereo receiver biz elevated into a power wattage war, eventually being won by the Marantz 2600 rated @ 400W x 2, quartz-lock tuning, scope. Today a well-restored 2600 can sell for up to $8,000. Unforunately the legal fight with Sony, forced depreciation of the US $ pushed SuperScope near bankruptcy, so they sold all off-shore assets to Phillips.

A notable exception was Japanese loudspeakers, which never quite managed to overcome an inferior image until the Yamaha NS10M arrived in 1978, and found it's way, slowly, into recording studios. Some of the Technics linear phase units also saw moderate success in the late 70's.
In the early 80s' with the introduction of the audio CD from Phillips and Sony, loudspeakers and amplifiers were now being challenged to handle their 100dB+ dynamic range. The competition for loudspeakers changed significantly driven by brands from Europe such as KEF, B&O, B&W, Tannoy, Wharfdale using new driver materials (some from NASA) and more advanced technical development PC instrumentation. Certain Japanese loudspeakers including Pioneer and the mentioned above Yamaha loudspeakers were becoming well respected as their products delivered a more balanced sound output. Previously in Japan the top selling loudspeaker brand was Diatone owned by Mitsubishi and endorsed by NHK, but they sounded horrible in a North American house.. Maybe in a Japanese apartment or house that lacked any type of wall damping they were marginally acceptible. However in Japan certain USA brands such as JBL were considered the world loudspeaker standard, but certain brands such as Pioneer Japan actually hired the top JBL engineer to design new transducers both for consumer and pro audio applications.

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
U have some errors in the above paragraph. Marantz was bought from Saul Marantz in the mid-60s to SuperScope. SuperScope was the exclusive North American distributor for Sony and actually brought Sony Japan out of their garage operation in the late-50s. Through the 60s' and into the 70s Sony sales in the USA through SuperScope increased significantly, also SuperScope sold the Sony car audio and portable products as well. However as Sony sales increased Sony wanted the North America territory back, went into litigation and after a bitter, expensive legal fight eventually Sony got it back. But in the early 70s the SuperScope executive team, knew that they needed an audio brand for the growing global mass markets so they went to Japan and bought a bankrupt ODM factory called Standard Radio that then became Marantz Japan. Note that through the 60s Marantz had a factory in Woodside, NY and did build components such as preamps, amplifiers, tuners, turntables and a couple of high-end receivers models 18 & 19 there. But they knew to be competitive in the growing global receiver business they needed to source/build in Japan as building receivers in the USA was simply too expensive. The best selling Marantz receiver line was the 2230, 2270 selling >1 million receivers a year. The 2270 was rated @ 70 watts/channel but typically would measure 90W/channel. Today a well restored 2270 can sell for up to $1,000. Next the stereo receiver biz elevated into a power wattage war, eventually being won by the Marantz 2600 rated @ 400W x 2, quartz-lock tuning, scope. Today a well-restored 2600 can sell for up to $8,000. Unforunately the legal fight with Sony, forced depreciation of the US $ pushed SuperScope near bankruptcy, so they sold all off-shore assets to Phillips.


In the early 80s' with the introduction of the audio CD from Phillips and Sony, loudspeakers and amplifiers were now being challenged to handle their 100dB+ dynamic range. The competition for loudspeakers changed significantly driven by brands from Europe such as KEF, B&O, B&W, Tannoy, Wharfdale using new driver materials (some from NASA) and more advanced technical development PC instrumentation. Certain Japanese loudspeakers including Pioneer and the mentioned above Yamaha loudspeakers were becoming well respected as their products delivered a more balanced sound output. Previously in Japan the top selling loudspeaker brand was Diatone owned by Mitsubishi and endorsed by NHK, but they sounded horrible in a North American house.. Maybe in a Japanese apartment or house that lacked any type of wall damping they were marginally acceptible. However in Japan certain USA brands such as JBL were considered the world loudspeaker standard, but certain brands such as Pioneer Japan actually hired the top JBL engineer to design new transducers both for consumer and pro audio applications.

Just my $0.02... ;)
Vintage Marantz equipment is like 1960s muscle cars. There's no correlation between prices paid and relative performance, it's all about nostalgia. A new Honda V6 will beat most muscle cars, and I suspect an $800 AVR will smoke most vintage receivers.

I bought a 2270 new, and it wasn't all that good. Power was pretty limited into 4 ohm loads. It did look nice though. $8000 for a 2600 is beyond silly, but I understand this is about rarity and nostalgia, not value.

I'm very skeptical of your claim that >1 million 2270s were sold per year. Where did you get that information? That would make 2270 lifetime sales worth over $3B... that seems very unlikely. Even one million 2230s seems unlikely.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Vintage Marantz equipment is like 1960s muscle cars. There's no correlation between prices paid and relative performance, it's all about nostalgia. A new Honda V6 will beat most muscle cars, and I suspect an $800 AVR will smoke most vintage receivers.

I bought a 2270 new, and it wasn't all that good. Power was pretty limited into 4 ohm loads. It did look nice though. $8000 for a 2600 is beyond silly, but I understand this is about rarity and nostalgia, not value.
Don't take my word for it, check the online sales sites and one can easily see what the vintage Marantz 2200 series receivers sell for. We measured many, many 2270s' so we know very well what they measured. Into 4 ohms a typical power output for a 2270 was 100 watts. Regarding the 2600 besides a healthy power output into 4 ohms, the FM tuner was 5-gang having an incredible 50dB quieting spec and the phono preamp section could output up to 10V RMS. The 2600 had performance equal to or better than most separate components of the day.

I'm very skeptical of your claim that >1 million 2270s were sold per year. Where did you get that information? That would make 2270 lifetime sales worth over $3B... that seems very unlikely. Even one million 2230s seems unlikely.
The 1 million receivers a year was for the entire 2200 series receivers lineup, there were (5) models in the 2200 series; 2215, 2220, 2230, 2245, 2270.

Next question.. :confused:


Just my $0.02... ;)
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Don't take my word for it, check the online sales sites and one can easily see what the vintage Marantz 2200 series receivers sell for. We measured many, many 2270s' so we know very well what they measured. Into 4 ohms a typical power output for a 2270 was 100 watts. Regarding the 2600 besides a healthy power output into 4 ohms, the FM tuner was 5-gang having an incredible 50dB quieting spec and the phono preamp section could output up to 10V RMS. The 2600 had performance equal to or better than most separate components of the day.
I'm not questioning what they sell for; I'm vaguely familiar with the market. Sitting in a closet in my house is a 2110 tuner in mint condition with the original factory box...

As for the 2270 putting out 100w/ch into 4 ohms, not according to the measurements when they were new. About 45w/ch to keep IM distortion reasonable.

The 1 million receivers a year was for the entire 2200 series receivers lineup, there were (5) models in the 2200 series; 2215, 2220, 2230, 2245, 2270.

Next question.. :confused:


Just my $0.02... ;)
I still don't believe it.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Vintage Marantz equipment is like 1960s muscle cars. There's no correlation between prices paid and relative performance, it's all about nostalgia. A new Honda V6 will beat most muscle cars, and I suspect an $800 AVR will smoke most vintage receivers.
Hmmm...
In my garage is a Honda SI (1.9L, 4 cylinder, turbo) that dynos 550 horspower @ the wheels. The Honda will do zero to 125 MPH in 11 seconds. Also parked in my garage is a 1970 Plymouth RoadRunner, that dynos @ 475 horsepower. Both cars are totally restored, the downside of the 60/70s muscle cars is not horsepower, its brakes and handling they were designed for the straight-line not smoking through the canyons. Actually my Dodge RAM truck handles better than the RoadRunner.

I'm very skeptical of your claim that >1 million 2270s were sold per year. Where did you get that information? That would make 2270 lifetime sales worth over $3B... that seems very unlikely. Even one million 2230s seems unlikely.
My source of information came directly from the Sr.Vp of Product Marketing for Marantz, who spent 16 years with Marantz/SuperScope.

Just my $0.02.. ;)
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
I'm not questioning what they sell for; I'm vaguely familiar with the market. Sitting in a closet in my house is a 2110 tuner in mint condition with the original factory box...
Check out the specs, the 2110 had a 3 gang FM tuner..
Big draw for the 2110 was the scope, its RF performance was good in its class but not equal to the 2130.
The 2130 had the better front end, IF section, 5 gang FM tuner and quartz lock.

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Check out the specs, the 2110 had a 3 gang FM tuner..
Big draw for the 2110 was the scope, its RF performance was good in its class but not equal to the 2130.
The 2130 had the better front end, IF section, 5 gang FM tuner and quartz lock.

Just my $0.02... ;)
I was never worried about low signal stations. I was always a sound quality fan. I wanted max quieting. Anyway, the 2130 was so rare that some even question whether it was a production product.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
I was never worried about low signal stations. I was always a sound quality fan. I wanted max quieting. Anyway, the 2130 was so rare that some even question whether it was a production product.
The 2130 had incredible stereo sensitivity @ 50dB quieting, but it major benefits was its better selectivity very important in a metroplitan area and its quartz-lock tuning assuring precise center channel tunning. By the late 70s, the USA market was dominated by receivers, demand for components and separate tuners was minimal so 2130 sales were small.

Just my $0.02.. ;)
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Going somewhat further on the T-dot System in Japan, broadly speaking the factories were anonymous, unknown (outside of the industry insiders) manufacturers who would produce branded products for OEMs (SONY, Sansui, Kenwood, Pioneer, etc) completely ... that is the product came out of the factory as a boxed, branded unit.

Broadly speaking OEMs would manufacture their highest-priced products (Receivers, Amplifiers, etc) in owned factories but sent mid and lower-priced design criteria to the T-dot factories. In many cases the T-dot developed the product from scratch, designing the circuit and PCBs themselves based on broad criteria from the OEM.

Some brands (notably Accuphase, Luxman) did some or all manufacturing in-house, but these were rare and you could tell by the MSRP in any case, which wasn't low by any means.

In the early and mid 1970's the label on the back panel would indicate products manufactured under this system, with a logo (a "T" with a dot on top) and number, indicating which factory did the work.

By the late 1970's the T-dot mark was omitted from the labels but the practice remained. Companies like Jelco built most tonearms, Matsushita (Panasonic, Technics and at the time, JVC) built most DC direct drive motor assemblies which were incorporated into other OEMs products by the T-dot factory. Matsushita did manufacture their own turntables (with Jelco arms) but some other products went to T-dot factories. Matsushita and SONY were huge and did do a lot of their own manufacturing, but by no means all of it.

The original high quality cassette deck (Advent 201, very late 1960's, a US-based company) was contract-manufactured by Nakamichi. Nak was not a brand at the time; they got into the cassette business as a result of the contract with Advent and a decision to carry on with cassettes. Other major cassette deck manufactures were Alpine, TEAC, and a number of anonymous manufacturers.

It may seem strange today, but in the 1970's Japanese brands were considered inferior to European and North American manufactured equipment, much as it is today with offshore brands from less expensive labour regions of Asia. The "Made in California" Marantz gear was sought after once the company was sold to Japanese owners in the later part of the 1970's, again mirrored today with some "vintage" gear made prior to the 21st Century. By the late 1970's that badge had largely disappeared from Japanese made gear, but earlier it was very much evident.

A notable exception was Japanese loudspeakers, which never quite managed to overcome an inferior image until the Yamaha NS10M arrived in 1978, and found it's way, slowly, into recording studios. Some of the Technics linear phase units also saw moderate success in the late 70's.

It still is somewhat dominated by North American and UK manufacturers, although again PRC manufacturing is becoming the norm at least to a certain extent (especially raw drivers). Although there are exceptions, you could make an argument that Japanese manufactured speakers never really got a foothold in the market (even in Japan itself, where American made speakers have always dominated the high end), and today the opportunity is lost with PRC made units taking the trophy in that respect.

**

Dragging myself back on topic, it's my experience that not all amplifiers sound the same. I do prefer listening followed, if possible, by measuring. Certainly you can learn some clues about the "why" but not always. It does not matter to me that one amp has this design and the other has that; I'm not interested in manufacturing amplifiers, I just want something to listen with.

I don't see how auditioning by ear is incompatible with assessing a product whose job I will put it to is playing music with other equipment I may own or am considering.

If you failed, for example, to test some of the Class-A PASS amplifiers (just an example) with transient signals versus the standard continuous sine wave power output normally measured, you may miss the prodigious short term power ability (more than 100w) of these 25watt RMS (or so) units, and be mystified as to the Sound Quality they exhibit. Even the most complex input signal, one that can be reliably removed to measure intermodulation distortions, is orders of magnitude less complex than actual music. Listening and Testing go hand-in-hand if you really want answers.

**

I have an example of how amplifiers (or any component, from subtle to obvious) can sound different. If you are a laptop user, grab some music ... doesn't matter what, but less complex examples might be best, as it makes the areas to listen to a little easier to pick out ... and start playing it.

Because of a psyco-acoustic phenomena where humans are less critical of Sound Quality (SQ) when accompanied by visual cues, maybe a video isn't the best choice, when a music track is available, but it actually doesn't detract enough that this doesn't work.

Move the screen back, further than you normally view the screen. Listen to the sound (close your eyes if you want to help you concentrate). Move the screen slightly towards you, say by a half inch (12mm). Listen for changes.

Continue until the screen is getting closer to almost closed (where you can't view the screen anymore).

Now move the screen back to the original far away location. The music should be playing continuously during this time.

See how small a movement of the screen is needed before you can notice a sound difference. You may find rather subtle changes are now audible. You may even have difficulty deciding which one you prefer.

These are the kinds of differences you can expect when auditioning good, compatible gear vs another good, compatible alternative. It is not night-and-day, usually, but to say it's inaudible is really un-supportable.
Unless I misinterpreted the test you described, it appears to be sighted test. We all know how visual vlues affects one hearing. That blind listening test that I took part in really opened my eyes to how muc humans listen with their other senses.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Unless I misinterpreted the test you described, it appears to be sighted test. We all know how visual vlues affects one hearing. That blind listening test that I took part in really opened my eyes to how muc humans listen with their other senses.
You did misinterpret the test I described. I'll spell it out for you, maybe you're not familiar with the operation of computer-based music players, or don't use common keyboard shortcuts.

You select a song.

You create however many copies of that song, in the various formats you want to test, as you see fit.

You will have to name them uniquely, but that doesn't matter, because ...

You create a "smart playlist" (what iTunes calls it) in a music player app, which contains only the tracks you created in step 2, and have the playlist select files at random as one of the criteria.
At this point, it still does not matter if you can see the order of the files in the playlist, because ...

You can refresh the order, with a keyboard shortcut, without looking at the computer screen. You can turn the monitor off, or move the laptop's screen such that you can't view it, but can still access the KB shortcut keys, or use some tape and and a sheet of paper, to cover the screen, or you could minimize the iTunes/music player window, and cover the minimized window with a post-it note. Or some other method ... I assumed readers of this site could figure that part out, in whatever way they saw fit.

Hit the spacebar (again, that's the iTunes KB shortcut, others will have similar options) and the files will start playing, in random order. You can refresh the random order at any time, if you like, by using another keyboard shortcut. None of this requires being able to view the file names.

Or, you could blind yourself with a fork.* You decide.

* One of the first music videos in rotation when MTV first aired, was by the Scorpions featuring a guy in an asylum with forks in his eyes.
 
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3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
You did misinterpret the test I described. I'll spell it out for you, maybe you're not familiar with the operation of computer-based music players, or don't use common keyboard shortcuts.

You select a song.

You create however many copies of that song, in the various formats you want to test, as you see fit.

You will have to name them uniquely, but that doesn't matter, because ...

You create a "smart playlist" (what iTunes calls it) in a music player app, which contains only the tracks you created in step 2, and have the playlist select files at random as one of the criteria.
At this point, it still does not matter if you can see the order of the files in the playlist, because ...

You can refresh the order, with a keyboard shortcut, without looking at the computer screen. You can turn the monitor off, or move the laptop's screen such that you can't view it, but can still access the KB shortcut keys, or use some tape and and a sheet of paper, to cover the screen, or you could minimize the iTunes/music player window, and cover the minimized window with a post-it note. Or some other method ... I assumed readers of this site could figure that part out, in whatever way they saw fit.

Hit the spacebar (again, that's the iTunes KB shortcut, others will have similar options) and the files will start playing, in random order. You can refresh the random order at any time, if you like, by using another keyboard shortcut. None of this requires being able to view the file names.

Or, you could blind yourself with a fork.* You decide.

* One of the first music videos in rotation when MTV first aired, was by the Scorpions featuring a guy in an asylum with forks in his eyes.

Ok. Your randomly shuffling different files on your computer which I'm assuming you have connected to the input of an amp. Where does the test start by randomly selecting different amplifiers?
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
Move the screen back, further than you normally view the screen. Listen to the sound (close your eyes if you want to help you concentrate). Move the screen slightly towards you, say by a half inch (12mm). Listen for changes.

Continue until the screen is getting closer to almost closed (where you can't view the screen anymore).

Now move the screen back to the original far away location. The music should be playing continuously during this time.

See how small a movement of the screen is needed before you can notice a sound difference. You may find rather subtle changes are now audible. You may even have difficulty deciding which one you prefer.
This is not testing sound quality nor sound differences. And yet you say you have an example of how amps can sound different while this is an example of amps sounding the same and listener having changes in his/hers perception. Which should further promote measurement and not listening, since this is further proof you shouldn't always trust your ears. (With one exception of having the screen so close that you can't make it out anymore which should shield your ears to an extent.)

If being very generous, I could say this measures the starting point and further limens where visual stimuli starts affecting the acoustical stimuli.

You do work very hard in pushing this, I give you that. I just don't quite understand why. What do you stand to lose/gain by all of this? For example, this thread is not about listening vs. measuring at all. It's just about whether you can hear a difference.

Imagine if all audiophiles took your advice and started making their decisions by listening alone, how do you see that world as better? What goals could be met? How would it improve the world of hi-fi?

So far it's just making more room to fool inexperienced listeners. A lot of gear can sound good for as long as it takes to make the sale to an idle buyer.

I sure as hell heard the difference when I switched from a borrowed NAD to my second hand Yamaha. Until this day I didn't get the sound of that NAD and I wanted to as it was very pleasing. I came as close as possible by bypassing everything I could bypass. This further underlines what this and similar threads already pointed out; the difference, yes, but is it a result of the amplification section on its own and not preamp or any postamp parts, given that amplification section is not being pushed? Hardly by what we know so far, but most of us are wide-eyed for new input.

In the mean time I learned something about laid-back mids of the NAD's, so, again, it was not the matter of the amp-section itself.
 

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