help with speaker options for tricky ceiling

[hifi-dabbler]

Hello everyone, long-time lurker and beneficiary of the great knowledge here--first time post. I am finishing my basement and have an open area dedicated to home theater and for music. I have run the speaker cable and buying the equipment for a Dolby Atmos 7.2.4 setup (but may not add the second sub right away.

Equipment - The only things I own is an older SVS PS-12 sub and 4x SVS bookshelf speakers (old ones, probably comparable to the Prime series--I may use these for surrounds and upgrade later). I have bought a Marantz SR 7011 (good deal as they released the SR 7012) and an Oppo UDP-203.

Main Speakers - I am all but settled on buying Ohm Walsh 2000 (maybe 3000) for the L/C/R speakers. You can quibble with this choice if you like--I will certainly listen to all opinions.

May question is about the 4x ceiling speakers, yes I will mount them to the ceiling. The speaker placement is such that it is that the right ones will have to be mount below the HVAC main ducts or right next to them and I am not finding a great answer in speaker selection. See attached pictures--you can see where I have the speaker cables coming out of the drywall. I could move them a little if needed but don;t want to cut the drywall if I don't have to. The problem is that the height under the HVAC is 7 feet. If I place a ceiling mounted speaker under that, I run the risk of hurting my taller guests and I don't want to do that.

I was strongly considering using the DIY Volt-6 coax speakers with the angle pack for the ceiling speakers, but they are 9" deep so they won't really work mounted under the HVAC. I could mount them on the inside of the HVAC but then their placement is a little off and I'm not sure what that does to their sound with a short wall covering half the speaker. I've read that coaxial speakers are good for the overhead Atmos speakers, but not locked in to coaxials.

ELAC makes a coax that is pretty shallow (4") so that could work but they only go down to 160Hz so I'm not sure about using them as it seems a little light in the bass even with a sub. Not sure.

Golden Ear has some very shallow speakers (2.75") that could work under the HVAC but I'm not sure how they would mix with the rest of the system (the SVSs in particular). I do love ribbons though.

SVS has the Prime elevation that would work if I mounted them inside the HVAC, but not sure about that placement.

Anyway, any thoughts and advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[yepimonfire]

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with your speaker choices, but I would be concerned with timbre matching problems. While many would state timbre matching isn’t necessary for speakers outside of the l/c/r, I’ve never found this to be the case. Every time I’ve use a different line, or worse, different brand of speakers, it’s easily noticeable, ruining the fluidity and coherence of the soundstage.

I’ve had it both ways (different surrounds/heights, and identical), and I must say, I will never go back to a mismatched system again. I also noticed height speakers that significantly differ from the rest of the speakers are extremely distracting, more so than different surrounds.

Coax can well, but another option is waveguide/horn loaded speakers with uniform directivity. I’ve currently got a pair of Klipsch bookshelves mounted to the ceiling. Dolby suggests a 90 degree dispersion pattern out to 10khz for overhead speakers, and plenty of CD horns and waveguides can manage this, as long as the vertical dispersion isn’t significantly narrower (ie SEOS horns).

This is my top middle speakers response seated 45 degrees forward off axis (note that the hump is room interaction)

I’m not sure what you mean by “under hvac”. Are you going to attach them to the hvac ducts via a mount like the omnimount or actually put them into the duct mounted flush? If the latter, that’s a terrible idea, for multiple reasons. For one, the changing temps can cause moisture condensation for cool air, and severely limit power handling or even change the internal tuning of the speaker /xover when heat is involved. That’s not even getting into all of the bizzare sound possibilities of having a speaker attached to a big metal tube.

Personally, if you’re set in attaching them to the ducts, what I’d do is place a small piece of 2x4 on the inside of the duct and attach mounting hardware by screwing into the 2x4 on the inside of the duct.


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[hifi-dabbler]

Thanks yepimonfire. The HVAC is framed out with 2x4s that hold the drywall and are pretty sturdy (cross braced) so I would attach the speakers to the 2x4s or use a sturdy drywall anchor...I would not attach them directly to the HVAC metal ducts or recess them into the ducts. I have made some blunders in my life but that one is not something I would do.

On recessing, I meant that I could recess them into the drop ceiling (not where the HVAC is). I did look at Klipsch--they have an angled speaker that could work well (RP 140SA I believe) and some of their bookshelves will fit my budget, but I wasn't sure how the horns would match. You're point on matching all the speakers is well taken, I may go all Ohm although I'm not sure about their Sat 4 which is what I would use.

 

[shadyJ]

Whatever you get, it won't be perfect, so don't worry about perfection. Get something that has wide dispersion for the ceiling speaker. The Elac or Golden Ear speakers should do the trick there. Don't worry that they won't have bass. Speakers that have bass will necessarily be large, and it looks like you don't have the room. Don't get waveguide speakers for the ceiling when you are seated that close, you will want wide-dispersion speakers. You should refer to Dolby's home Atmos installation guide here and get as close as you can to Dolby's recommendations.

Absolutely do not get Ohm speakers for the surrounds. That will destroy the idea of discrete sound sources. Omindirectional speakers don't make a good fit for home theater, especially multichannel home theater. The separate channels are there to produce sound from a particular location. Omnidirectional speaker shoot sound out everywhere. That could quickly turn into an acoustic nightmare. In fact I would skip Walsh's for the front stage speakers as well. They will produce a lot more acoustic reflections than conventional speakers. That will be hard to control unless you have a heavily damped room.

 

[hifi-dabbler]

Whatever you get, it won't be perfect, so don't worry about perfection. Get something that has wide dispersion for the ceiling speaker. The Elac or Golden Ear speakers should do the trick there. Don't worry that they won't have bass. Speakers that have bass will necessarily be large, and it looks like you don't have the room. Don't get waveguide speakers for the ceiling when you are seated that close, you will want wide-dispersion speakers. You should refer to Dolby's home Atmos installation guide here and get as close as you can to Dolby's recommendations.

Absolutely do not get Ohm speakers for the surrounds. That will destroy the idea of discrete sound sources. Omindirectional speakers don't make a good fit for home theater, especially multichannel home theater. The separate channels are there to produce sound from a particular location. Omnidirectional speaker shoot sound out everywhere. That could quickly turn into an acoustic nightmare. In fact I would skip Walsh's for the front stage speakers as well. They will produce a lot more acoustic reflections than conventional speakers. That will be hard to control unless you have a heavily damped room.

I did use the Dolby guide to place my wires and I thought the discrete sound source was for surrounds and overheads and not the L/C/R, but I'm probably wrong about that. On the surrounds I was not planning on using the Ohm Walsh speakers, but their satellite which is not a walsh design (I believe). But even still, maybe not the best choice. I am asking Ohm about this.

I'm a little infatuated with the walsh speakers though and I do a lot of music listening. I heard ohm walsh speakers many years ago and really liked them but I was travelling 90% and it didn't make sense to have expensive speakers then...

 

[shadyJ]

I did use the Dolby guide to place my wires and I thought the discrete sound source was for surrounds and overheads and not the L/C/R, but I'm probably wrong about that. On the surrounds I was not planning on using the Ohm Walsh speakers, but their satellite which is not a walsh design (I believe). But even still, maybe not the best choice. I am asking Ohm about this.

I'm a little infatuated with the walsh speakers though and I do a lot of music listening. I heard ohm walsh speakers many years ago and really liked them but I was travelling 90% and it didn't make sense to have expensive speakers then...

I don't mean to bash the Walsh speakers, they certainly have their place and their advantages. However, if I were you, I would audition them back to back against speakers of a more conventional design. Omnipolar speakers bring acoustic reflections into the picture in a major way. That can be a good thing and also a bad thing. In certain types of recordings that might be beneficial, because late reflections can add a sense of spaciousness. However I don't think that is a sound suited for home theater at all. The decay times of all the reflection could end up being abysmal. When you are watching a movie, what you want to hear is only the soundtrack, not the acoustic properties of your room.

 

[hifi-dabbler]

Any recommendations? For the LCRs I have 3k - 5k budgeted (for all three). Of course I'm ok spending less

 

[yepimonfire]

In my experience, you absolutely don’t want diffuse sound in a home theater. For music, it might add ambiance to have lots of reflections, but it just ruins the localization and imaging in multichannel. I’ve had it both ways, a “live”, reflective room (bare walls, wood floor, not a ton of absorbing furniture) and the way I have it now (treated moderately, low amount of reflections) and it sounds MUCH better. I’m a fan of controlled directivity, simply because I don’t want to hear the “room” and any reflections I do hear I want to be similar in timbre.
@shadyJ, why wouldn’t a waveguide with a wide dispersion pattern (90 degrees or greater) be a bad idea? In my experience, it works much better because there’s no treble rollof from seat to seat, and the time/intensity trading helps keep the soundstage overhead from collapsing and hotspotting. This is at 8’ high too.

Dolby specs for home theater is a 90x90 pattern from 100hz-10khz. A 90x90 Klipsch speaker, for example, is 90x90 out to 14khz, being -6dB across 1-14khz +-45 degrees. If someone is seat 30 degrees off axis closer to the left top middle, for example, that’s around a 4dB drop, which is significant enough in my experience to completely prevent hotspotting.

Of course, this is simply my experience and opinion.


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[shadyJ]

Any recommendations? For the LCRs I have 3k - 5k budgeted (for all three). Of course I'm ok spending less

There are lots of good speakers in that price range. If it were me, I would be looking at a few JBL LSR3662 speakers. They are about 1500 each. They have a ruler flat response and very highly controlled directivity. They are THX pm3 certified, which means they are considered good enough to actually mix and master THX soundtracks on, not just reproduce. That is a very high standard of performance. They have lots of dynamic range and are extremely accurate.

I might also be looking at some Pi Three or Fours, preferably with upgraded drivers. That will get you reference level dynamics easy, and they have a good response and well-controlled dispersion. Very easy to drive with any amplifier as well.

Other good choices are JBL 708i monitors, the QSC K series 12.2s when set to 'studio monitor' mode, Emotiva Stealth 8s. Any of those will give you a powerful, accurate, balanced sound.

If you need speakers that have a more living-room friendly appearance, I would be looking at RBH, Revel Concerto2 series, KEF Q series, SVS Ultra, Hsu CCB-8, maybe Klipsch RP series. Also look at the Dayton Epique CBT24 speakers. There are other good choices out there as well, these are just some I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[shadyJ]

In my experience, you absolutely don’t want diffuse sound in a home theater. For music, it might add ambiance to have lots of reflections, but it just ruins the localization and imaging in multichannel. I’ve had it both ways, a “live”, reflective room (bare walls, wood floor, not a ton of absorbing furniture) and the way I have it now (treated moderately, low amount of reflections) and it sounds MUCH better. I’m a fan of controlled directivity, simply because I don’t want to hear the “room” and any reflections I do hear I want to be similar in timbre.
@shadyJ, why wouldn’t a waveguide with a wide dispersion pattern (90 degrees or greater) be a bad idea? In my experience, it works much better because there’s no treble rollof from seat to seat, and the time/intensity trading helps keep the soundstage overhead from collapsing and hotspotting. This is at 8’ high too.

Dolby specs for home theater is a 90x90 pattern from 100hz-10khz. A 90x90 Klipsch speaker, for example, is 90x90 out to 14khz, being -6dB across 1-14khz +-45 degrees. If someone is seat 30 degrees off axis closer to the left top middle, for example, that’s around a 4dB drop, which is significant enough in my experience to completely prevent hotspotting.

Of course, this is simply my experience and opinion.


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Hey Yep, I am just not so sure how far that the Klipsch RPs can maintain a 90x90 pattern. My guess is that it would start beaming at frequencies lower than you think. I would have to see some anechoic or quasi-anechoic measurements to be convinced. Also, you say you are a fan of controlled directivity, but a 90 degree angle of dispersion is pretty broad, hardly qualifies for controlled directivity. Again, I would want to see some measurements to be convinced.

 

[yepimonfire]

Hey Yep, I am just not so sure how far that the Klipsch RPs can maintain a 90x90 pattern. My guess is that it would start beaming at frequencies lower than you think. I would have to see some anechoic or quasi-anechoic measurements to be convinced. Also, you say you are a fan of controlled directivity, but a 90 degree angle of dispersion is pretty broad, hardly qualifies for controlled directivity. Again, I would want to see some measurements to be convinced.

90 degrees meaning +-45 degrees. Assuming the seating area is the three chairs in the picture, that would easily cover the entire listening area assuming they were aimed at the middle most seat. I have a somewhat similar setup with two speakers overhead pointed right in the middle, sounds great no matter where I sit with no hotspotting. That graph I posted above was windowed IIRC.


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[yepimonfire]

Any recommendations? For the LCRs I have 3k - 5k budgeted (for all three). Of course I'm ok spending less

How far is the seating from the screen? That room looks pretty big. Can’t add to shady’s recommendation, but I will say on the Klipsch RP, if the room and seating distance is as large as it looks from the photos, I’d go no less than the RP 280f. The whole series is on sale right now IIRC. You could purchase 7 280fs for $3500, if you’ve got an acoustically transparent screen, you could throw an 8th one in there for $4k for the whole setup.

Pretty hard to beat those JBLs though... regardless, I would really try and use identical LCRs and even identical surrounds if you can. The perfect seamlessness of a completely matched setup has ruined my ability to mix and match fronts and surrounds.


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[hifi-dabbler]

How far is the seating from the screen?

The theater area is open, but the "defined" space is 16' wide x 14.5' deep. The back wall is 13' from the listeners ear. So from speaker placement 10'-11' I guess. There is 11' of space to each side of the theater area, so the side walls are pretty far out. The back wall is 8'-13' behind the theater space so there is a decent amount of open space on three sides of the theater area. So the back wall is fairly far back and not straight (there is a bump out on the wall where the basement door is).

I went with a TV rather than projector and it is mounted roughly 10" out from the wall. I did that so I could swivel the TV to casually see it from the side areas.

 

[shadyJ]

90 degrees meaning +-45 degrees. Assuming the seating area is the three chairs in the picture, that would easily cover the entire listening area assuming they were aimed at the middle most seat. I have a somewhat similar setup with two speakers overhead pointed right in the middle, sounds great no matter where I sit with no hotspotting. That graph I posted above was windowed IIRC.


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I know what you mean by 90x90, but I would still need to see evidence to be convinced. I know that Klipsch has the engineering chops to make a great speaker, but I think you are attributing performance characteristics to this speaker that it might not have.

 

[yepimonfire]

I know what you mean by 90x90, but I would still need to see evidence to be convinced. I know that Klipsch has the engineering chops to make a great speaker, but I think you are attributing performance characteristics to this speaker that it might not have.

Obviously I don’t have an anechoic chamber, but I have done plenty of windowed measurements and it always comes out consistently 90x90 out to 14khz. Obviously at 45 degrees off axis 1-14khz is down 6dB, but the entire frequency range is down by a consistent amount and does not roll off progressively steeper with increasing frequency.

Either way, just stating my experience using them for top middle speakers. I get very good coverage across a 16’ front to back area, and to my ears, it sounds great in every seat in my room.


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[yepimonfire]

The theater area is open, but the "defined" space is 16' wide x 14.5' deep. The back wall is 13' from the listeners ear. So from speaker placement 10'-11' I guess. There is 11' of space to each side of the theater area, so the side walls are pretty far out. The back wall is 8'-13' behind the theater space so there is a decent amount of open space on three sides of the theater area. So the back wall is fairly far back and not straight (there is a bump out on the wall where the basement door is).

I went with a TV rather than projector and it is mounted roughly 10" out from the wall. I did that so I could swivel the TV to casually see it from the side areas.

I guess it depends on how loud you listen. You might also want to consider some modest room treatment to tame excessive reflections, since there seems to be quite a lot of open bare walls/ceiling. If you clap your hands and it rings on audibly afterwards, that’s a good sign some treatment may be beneficial. You don’t want a dead room, but you don’t want so much reflective “clutter” that it smears imaging.

How large is the total space? Is there a wall behind the area where the front speakers will be placed?


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