Denon x1300w, enough power for my setup?

[TLS Guy]

You do not want to use a DI box to convert speaker output to line. I have never seen that suggested before. That would be a terrible idea.

Its use should be to connect a high z device like a guitar to a low z mixer input. That works well and I did it a lot back in my sound reinforcement days.

I find it strange you want to get burned by another receiver.

You seem serious about this. I know you can use preouts, but if you do that I would at least recommend disconnecting the rail voltage to the power amps and preferably removing them

The best solution for you is separates. I would keep you eyes open for a good used one if you don't want to spring for a new one.

I have never liked receivers not even back in the so called "good old days". Now they are totally ridiculous items of hardware and not fit for long term purpose. They way things continue to pan out I'm increasingly adverse to recommending receivers.

Separates were always the best option, and they way things are now going close to the only sensible choice for those really serious about audio and AV.

 

[yepimonfire]

You do not want to use a DI box to convert speaker output to line. I have never seen that suggested before. That would be a terrible idea.

Its use should be to connect a high z device like a guitar to a low z mixer input. That works well and I did it a lot back in my sound reinforcement days.

I find it strange you want to get burned by another receiver.

You seem serious about this. I know you can use preouts, but if you do that I would at least recommend disconnecting the rail voltage to the power amps and preferably removing them

The best solution for you is separates. I would keep you eyes open for a good used one if you don't want to spring for a new one.

I have never liked receivers not even back in the so called "good old days". Now they are totally ridiculous items of hardware and not fit for long term purpose. They way things continue to pan out I'm increasingly adverse to recommending receivers.

Separates were always the best option, and they way things are now going close to the only sensible choice for those really serious about audio and AV.

Unfortunately separates are terrible value due to low demand. You’re basically paying more money for a receiver without amps. My biggest complaint with modern receivers is lousy amplifier sections. I had a Marantz sr 7400 several years ago that was was a monster. Nowadays the power supplies are so crippled they just don’t have the current capabilities to drive speakers simultaneously at full rail voltage. The money goes into the processing and useless features, like WiFi streaming. Atmos is expensive, and atmos on top of Audyssey requires a hefty processor, something had to give. Luckily, my choice of speakers (horn loaded) makes power less of an issue, but still...


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[TLS Guy]

Unfortunately separates are terrible value due to low demand. You’re basically paying more money for a receiver without amps. My biggest complaint with modern receivers is lousy amplifier sections. I had a Marantz sr 7400 several years ago that was was a monster. Nowadays the power supplies are so crippled they just don’t have the current capabilities to drive speakers simultaneously at full rail voltage. The money goes into the processing and useless features, like WiFi streaming. Atmos is expensive, and atmos on top of Audyssey requires a hefty processor, something had to give. Luckily, my choice of speakers (horn loaded) makes power less of an issue, but still...


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Not true anymore. The current Marantz pre pros are cheaper than their equivalent receivers.

I think the pre/pros do likely have a higher build quality. In any event the case is more open and driving voltages will be more stable not having power amps in the box where they don't belong.
And yes, you are right it is easy to find much better power amps than the ones in receivers.

 

[everettT]

Can we just forget the ACD tests. It truly does not apply to real world listening. Unless you have, which you don't, a complex load, the x3300 is sufficient. Again if needed it has preouts.

 

[yepimonfire]

Can we just forget the ACD tests. It truly does not apply to real world listening. Unless you have, which you don't, a complex load, the x3300 is sufficient. Again if needed it has preouts.

It’s useful for determining current capabilities.


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[yepimonfire]

Not true anymore. The current Marantz pre pros are cheaper than their equivalent receivers.

I think the pre/pros do likely have a higher build quality. In any event the case is more open and driving voltages will be more stable not having power amps in the box where they don't belong.
And yes, you are right it is easy to find much better power amps than the ones in receivers.

Yes, but they only offer flagship stuff. The cheapest offering is $1500, a Denon 6300h is $1500, and a 4300h is $800, both process 11.2 channels and come with preouts. It’d be nice if someone offered a 7.2 atmos processor for the same price as the 1300w or 3300w. Those receivers obviously hav preamps, but the 1300w has no preouts. If the amp section of the 3300w was dropped, the price to manufacturer would be significantly less, and it could be offered for about $400. Unfortunately, mid range av processors don’t exist.


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[lovinthehd]

https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hometheater/upgrades/audysseymulteqeditorapp

http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX1300W/NA/EN/GFNFSYwwqdpazi.php

It states right in the manual that the distance can be adjusted for subwoofer 1 and subwoofer 2.

Based on my calculations, 47w (worst case scenario ACD at full blast) should give me 95dB from the front L/R. If you run the calculations based on the 2ch driven, @8 ohms, and @ 4ohms, 5ch driven, and 7ch driven bench results, you come up with around 14.5 amps into both the 5ch and 7ch measurements. Obviously, the 2ch rating is voltage limited whereas the multichannel is current limited. The 2ch 8ohm measurement shows an rms voltage of 28v, which is fairly typical in avr supply rails.

At 95dB, the surrounds combined will require 20w and 2.3 amps, the heights, 70w combined and 4 amps, the L/R, 100w combined and 5 amps, the center, 20w and 1.6 amps, for a total ACD current draw of 12.9 amps, leaving about 1.6 amps of headroom. This is based on completely anechoic sensitivity, and worst case scenario 0dBfs 7ch continuous signal. Obviously, dynamic power ratings are higher, since there is always a bit of reserve current, and current limiting doesn’t take effect instantly. Because of the dynamic nature of multichannel film tracks, I should have absolutely no problem at -10dB from reference, even if I blasted full bandwidth pink noise through all seven channels I’d probably be fine.

95% of the time, my “theoretical” power/spl calculations seem to translate pretty well into the real world when tested, for example, I calculated the NR 656’s voltage/amps/watts based on multichannel bench results and theorized I should be able to achieve 102dB into 2ch at 120 hz, where my speakers dip down to 4 ohms, and 11’ before clipping. Testing that theory, I got 105dB before audible distortion.



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Your links didn't take me anywhere that confirmed your assertion of individual control of sub level let alone delay but will research later as am only using a phone at the moment....

 

[everettT]

It’s useful for determining current capabilities.


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Never have considered ACD when purchasing an AVR. Your not gonna find more bang for the buck than the 33/4300 right now.

 

[everettT]

Your links didn't take me anywhere that confirmed your assertion of individual control of sub level let alone delay but will research later as am only using a phone at the moment....

Didn't know that you were on your phone as I didn't see a tapatalk sig

 

[everettT]

Your links didn't take me anywhere that confirmed your assertion of individual control of sub level let alone delay but will research later as am only using a phone at the moment....

The 2nd link looks like you can set distance for each sub, but that link is for manual setup and not done under audyessey as far is I can tell.

 

[lovinthehd]

The 2nd link looks like you can set distance for each sub, but that link is for manual setup and not done under audyessey as far is I can tell.

The 2nd link doesn't say you can set them separately...it just says the default setting for "subwoofer 1 / subwoofer 2" is 12 ft along with all the other speakers. While it would be nice if this avr had separately adjustable sub 1/2, this is not a feature of any of the Denon avrs except those equipped with XT32/SubEQ that I'm aware of, the others simply have basically an internal splitter and sub 1/2 use the same settings as a result....love to be wrong but I don't think I am, even with the use of the app....

 

[lovinthehd]

Not true anymore. The current Marantz pre pros are cheaper than their equivalent receivers.

I think the pre/pros do likely have a higher build quality. In any event the case is more open and driving voltages will be more stable not having power amps in the box where they don't belong.
And yes, you are right it is easy to find much better power amps than the ones in receivers.

According to their website the current msrp for their lineup of pre-pros are:
7704 $ 2199
7703 $ 2199
8802A $ 3999
the corresponding amp with just 7 ch of amps
8077 $ 2399, or for 10ch of amps 2 of the 7055 at 1199 each (or another 799 for 2 channels with the 7025)

Top avrs are are 7011/7012 at $2199.00. They have 9 ch of amps, altho acd would be a bit less than the Marantz separate amps (maybe).

Sure, you could add even more powerful amps to the pre-pros for less than the matching amps from Marantz, but you're still going to spend significantly more for the separates one way or the other as well as having more boxes to manage, vs the avr. Sure, there may be some tradeoffs for the single box but for most people this is not going to be an issue, not even likely an audible issue; if heat is an issue you can add cooling fairly inexpensively. I'd think it's still economies of scale that keep the separates prices higher even if their basic prepro is essentially an avr without amps.

 

[yepimonfire]

According to their website the current msrp for their lineup of pre-pros are:
7704 $ 2199
7703 $ 2199
8802A $ 3999
the corresponding amp with just 7 ch of amps
8077 $ 2399, or for 10ch of amps 2 of the 7055 at 1199 each (or another 799 for 2 channels with the 7025)

Top avrs are are 7011/7012 at $2199.00. They have 9 ch of amps, altho acd would be a bit less than the Marantz separate amps (maybe).

Sure, you could add even more powerful amps to the pre-pros for less than the matching amps from Marantz, but you're still going to spend significantly more for the separates one way or the other as well as having more boxes to manage, vs the avr. Sure, there may be some tradeoffs for the single box but for most people this is not going to be an issue, not even likely an audible issue; if heat is an issue you can add cooling fairly inexpensively. I'd think it's still economies of scale that keep the separates prices higher even if their basic prepro is essentially an avr without amps.

If someone could come up with software decoding for atmos (for something like powerdvd), or a sound card that had atmos on board, an HTPC might make a useful “processor” to hook to external amps.


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[PENG]

It’s useful for determining current capabilities.


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It is useful, but be careful how you use that information. For examples:

- the older HK AVRs have excellent ACD numbers, but still well below those of the equivalent Denon AVRs (in terms of price and feature set).

- Even if the two being compared tested with similar ACD outputs, it is highly possible that the one with lower ACD numbers could do better in real life applications if the "lesser" unit has much higher 2 or 3 channel driven outputs because it has stronger amplifier sections, more storage capacitance.

In general, and based on the many historic bench test data I have seen and collected, it is a good bet to go with units that offer significantly better 2 channel driven capability, such as Yamaha's and pay less attention to the ACD numbers that among other factors, are often a result of the way their protective circuits work.

 

[Pogre]

I think it's also worth part of that premium for the 3300 to get XT32, I think it's significantly better than XT, particularly the ability to set delay/level for two subs. Might want to read about the adventures @Pogre had with the Audyssey app and his Marantz, too.

Yeah, that was fun.

Totally agree it's worth the upgrade for XT32. I had the 1300 for a little while before I got the SR6011. It's a decent receiver, but XT32 seems to do a lot better in my room. Especially in the bass department.

 

[Pogre]

Your links didn't take me anywhere that confirmed your assertion of individual control of sub level let alone delay but will research later as am only using a phone at the moment....

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Yeah, I can tell...



ps: I'll edit that out if you want... lol

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah, I can tell...



ps: I'll edit that out if you want... lol

Oh yeah? What phone do I have?

 

[Pogre]

Oh yeah? What phone do I have?

That one that Tapatalk doesn't recognize...

 

[Pogre]

The 2nd link doesn't say you can set them separately...it just says the default setting for "subwoofer 1 / subwoofer 2" is 12 ft along with all the other speakers. While it would be nice if this avr had separately adjustable sub 1/2, this is not a feature of any of the Denon avrs except those equipped with XT32/SubEQ that I'm aware of, the others simply have basically an internal splitter and sub 1/2 use the same settings as a result....love to be wrong but I don't think I am, even with the use of the app....

I had the 1300 and you're right. It does does not allow you to set the subs up separately. They're treated as one sub. I manually level matched them before running Audyssey.

 

[yepimonfire]

Just an update. The 1300w arrived about a week ago and I set it up last Tuesday and goofed around with it a bit. I have since used it to watch TV/Shows with family over thanksgiving, unfortunately, only my wife and I (okay, my wife more likely tolerates) full blast commercial cinema SPL, so I haven’t had a chance to fully give it a workout yet.

Ran some test tones through it with it calibrated to 75dB at frequencies where the worst impedance dips occur as measured by sound & vision, slowly turning the volume level up until the amplifiers clipped or speaker distorted. These were mostly low frequencies, thankfully, else, my wife would have killed me for causing such a racket. Managed -4dB across all channels before reaching mechanical limits on the front left and right, and -2dB on the center, with the test signal routed to all channels. Safe to say, the receiver has more headroom than the speakers, so power won’t be an issue.

One issue I’m noticing though, is running through the test tones, the SPL meter routinely measures the sub 3dB lower than it actually is. The only explanation I have for this is that the bandwidth of the pink noise must extend lower or roll off lower making the C weighting curve skew my results. An old onkyo had the same issue. Might just double check using the Dolby 5.1.2 test tone video.

I will say, the receiver just seems better than the onkyo overall. The streaming services aren’t nearly as glitchy, and the ability to choose between dsu and neural x regardless of input is nice. I’ve also noticed that many of the issues with Neural X upmixing I experienced with two channel is non existent in the Denon, which is strange, the onkyo mangled two channel content with neural x upmixing but sounded great with multichannel. There must have been some sort of processing between the input and neural X processing that screwed up the behavior of the decoder. Might be time for an updated review.

While I haven’t had time to properly calibrated it with Audyssey, the quick run through I did didn’t seem to do too bad, outside of the fact their “target curve” rolls the HF response off on the direct measurements of my speakers, my guess is that this is likely due to the fact the target curve assumes a falling response off axis, whereas the directivity of my speakers is fairly constant off axis. Perhaps this is one of the reasons I’ve always had poor results with Audyssey, I’ve always used it with Klipsch speakers. It might do better with regular dome tweeters that actually do the roll off off axis. Hopefully I can fix this with the app and just limit the correction to the bass.

The avr is a bit lighter and smaller than the onkyo, although the power supply is similarly sized. The onkyo is a class A/B, while the Denon is a class D, so the amount of heat sinking required is significantly less.

Only real issue I’ve had is “muscle memory” from the Onkyo remote layout. Always instinctively pressing the wrong damn buttons and then behaving like a technologically illiterate grandpa trying to figure out what happened or what I did lol!

Really need to get a good universal remote. Between the BDP, Roku, Satellite box, AVR, and TV (though the tv that comes with vizio smart cast TVs are all but useless) I’ve constantly gotta keep track of like 5 remotes.

Hoping the CEC functions work better through the Denon on the BDP. The onkyo was a sort of Russian roulette with the remote, outside of the play/skip buttons, it was anyone’s guess what each button would do or if it’s do anything, hit the wrong button, and movie times over...at least temporarily lol.


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