Denon/Yamaha

[lovinthehd]

Dolby Volume and Audyssey's Dynamic Volume are different, too. Dolby Volume is a leveler for various source material levels, Dynamic Volume is a compression routine (for the likes of "late night" watching etc).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It does have different offsets, but I am sure you know that already.

This appears to be a recurring theme over the years - that Dynamic EQ boosts the bass too much for some people.

It seems some people think DEQ is a one-size-fit-All and that you just can’t adjust the magnitude from very little effect to more prominent effect.

So again, one way to adjust the magnitude of the Dynamic EQ is by changing the Offset Level.

In addition to the Offset levels (0, 5, 10, 15 dB), you can also further adjust the magnitude of the Dynamic EQ by changing the Speaker Channel Levels (digital trim levels).

So let’s count the number of settings that will change the magnitude of DEQ:

4 ways with the Offsets (0, 5, 10, 15dB). This is often enough for most people.

24 ways with the digital trim levels (-12dB to + 12dB). This is in case the 4 Offset Levels are not enough fine-tuning for you.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The only time I like using audio compression is when I’m singing karaoke.

I don’t use Dynamic Volume either because it will boost the low volume and decrease the high volume, which means it will compress the Dynamic Range.

 

[M Code]

If one observed an Audio Precision printout for THD with & without Dynamic EQ they would switch it off..

Just my $0.02..

 

[lovinthehd]

If one observed an Audio Precision printout for THD with & without Dynamic EQ they would switch it off..

Just my $0.02..

Or is it like vinyl and tube amps?

 

[rnatalli]

Dolby Volume and Audyssey's Dynamic Volume are different, too. Dolby Volume is a leveler for various source material levels, Dynamic Volume is a compression routine (for the likes of "late night" watching etc).

Yes and no. Dolby Volume's Modeler operates like Audyssey DynamicEQ and the Leveler is for taming large swings in the volume stream similar to Dynamic Volume.

 

[PENG]

If one observed an Audio Precision printout for THD with & without Dynamic EQ they would switch it off..

Just my $0.02..

I highly doubt that, but if you boost the low frequencies by as much as 6 dB you bound to get higher distortions unless the subs (and the main if XO is relatively high) are relatively weak in terms of power handling. DEQ tapers off as you approach reference level anyway. It is supposed to be used for relatively low level listening to begin with. For those who listen at near reference level they may as well turn it off. In any case it can't be any worse than the old "loudness" thing that is fitted in all sorts of systems, even boom boxes. PS: with due respect, understood and that you have insider info and appreciate your willingness to share, but also know you are not a Denon fan.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If one observed an Audio Precision printout for THD with & without Dynamic EQ they would switch it off..

Just my $0.02..

If it sounds awesome, why would they switch DEQ off just because the Bass has increased THD?

It's like they say in the medical field, we treat the patient, not the lab.

At the end of the day, we listen to the actual sound, not the numbers.

At the end of the day, we want spectacular sound, not necessarily spectacular Bass THD.

We use the numbers (in this case Bass THD) only as a guide to obtain the best sound (in this case the Bass) for us. But what good are the numbers (Bass THD) if the sound isn't what we want?

 

[M Code]

Agreed..
To a certain extent specs are just a number, they do provide insight for what a product can do...
But in the end, its what your ears want to hear.. If it sounds good to U go for it..

Just my $0.02..

 

[3db]

I highly doubt that, but if you boost the low frequencies by as much as 6 dB you bound to get higher distortions unless the subs (and the main if XO is relatively high) are relatively weak in terms of power handling. DEQ tapers off as you approach reference level anyway. It is supposed to be used for relatively low level listening to begin with. For those who listen at near reference level they may as well turn it off. In any case it can't be any worse than the old "loudness" thing that is fitted in all sorts of systems, even boom boxes. PS: with due respect, understood and that you have insider info and appreciate your willingness to share, but also know you are not a Denon fan.

You unwittingly brought up a very valid point that MCode is missed and its not the Denon fanboy point either.. The point you made is how and when the listener applies these loudness and dynamic EQ algorithms. And this application goes across all manufacturer makes. If the listener is listening to material at or near reference level, then these algorithms try and compensate and actually get in the way and will produce undesirable affects such as increased distortion levels. Use these algorithms as they were designed for and the outcome will be desireable.

 

[M Code]

You unwittingly brought up a very valid point that MCode is missed and its not the Denon fanboy point either.. The point you made is how and when the listener applies these loudness and dynamic EQ algorithms. And this application goes across all manufacturer makes. If the listener is listening to material at or near reference level, then these algorithms try and compensate and actually get in the way and will produce undesirable affects such as increased distortion levels. Use these algorithms as they were designed for and the outcome will be desireable.

Hmmm..
Since we submit various AV product engineering samples for certification such as HDMI/HDCP, Apple MFI, Dolby, DTS, Audyssey, Dirac we have copies of the supporting technical data packs with multiple pages of AP printouts, data and specs required for the subject certification. So we know precisely how each algorithm works at specific levels and frequencies, the challenge is when more than 1 algorithm is being processed.
Key point here is for any circuit that attempts to adjust gain and frequency, if done in the digital domain as the majority are done in today's products there are fewer issues. But the major problem is there may be audible byproducts when done in the analog domain, we have measured THD as high as 8% when the analog tone controls are switched in even if the amplifier is being driven below clipping levels..

Just my $0.02...

 

[PENG]

If it sounds awesome, why would they switch if off just because of some numbers?

It's like they say in the medical field, we treat the patient, not the lab.

At the end of the day, we listen to the actual sound, not the numbers.

At the end of the day, we want spectacular sound, not necessarily spectacular numbers.

We use the numbers only as a guide to obtain the best sound for us. But what good are the numbers if the sound isn't what we want?

My point was that if DEQ was perfectly designed and implemented, then at reference level it should have no effects. In terms of distortions, at or near reference level, the preamp and amp could be pushed to levels where THD could be elevated during the dynamic peaks especially if and when the load impedance drops well below 8 ohms. That has little to do with Audyssey DEQ, but much more to do with THD associated with output level higher than rated.

As 3dB pointed out, the same applies to similar systems, not just Audyssey's.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My point was that if DEQ was perfectly designed and implemented, then at reference level it should have no effects. In terms of distortions, at or near reference level, the preamp and amp could be pushed to levels where THD could be elevated during the dynamic peaks especially if and when the load impedance drops well below 8 ohms. That has little to do with Audyssey DEQ, but much more to do with THD associated with output level higher than rated.

As 3dB pointed out, the same applies to similar systems, not just Audyssey's.

Agreed. Any EQ system (Audyssey, YPAO, DIRAC, ARC, Lyngdorf, etc) could reach higher levels of THD depending on the magnitude of the boost/EQ, volume, and frequencies.

THD will vary with different frequencies and levels.

If the boost/EQ is in the bass, then it is understandable that bass may have higher THD, while frequencies from 200Hz-20kHz are not affected.

Isn't the THD usually higher for subwoofers, especially at much higher volume?

My point can certainly be applied to all systems in general.

The end game is awesome sound even if the numbers at certain frequencies are slightly less awesome.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes and no. Dolby Volume's Modeler operates like Audyssey DynamicEQ and the Leveler is for taming large swings in the volume stream similar to Dynamic Volume.

I had to revisit the Dolby Volume settings in my Onkyo, that I don't use, to see indeed I had a leveler and what's called a half-mode under Dolby Volume....been a while, thanks!

 

[PENG]

Isn't the THD usually higher for subwoofers, especially at much higher volume?

My point can certainly be applied to all systems in general.

The end game is awesome sound even if the numbers at certain frequencies are slightly less awesome.

Absolutely, but as you know people can tolerate much higher THD in the bass frequencies, may even sound good.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Absolutely, but as you know people can tolerate much higher THD in the bass frequencies, may even sound good.

That's my hidden point.

The only thing I truly care to EQ is that bass. And I am willing to pay a little "THD" for that awesome bass.

And again, DEQ is not a one-size-fit-all: we can always adjust the amount of this Dynamic EQ/bass boost to fit our preference.

 

[Mitchibo]

This brings up a point I’d like to ask about. I assume that THD comes from various points; a tiny amount accepted in the speaker build, a minuscule amount in the reciever/amp, a source, and volume or power being pushed out, such as running at reference level or higher.

I have a mic and REW and see a chart for THD but I’m not familiar on how to interpret it. Perhaps this should be stuck on a different thread. A little general help...?

 

[PENG]

This brings up a point I’d like to ask about. I assume that THD comes from various points; a tiny amount accepted in the speaker build, a minuscule amount in the reciever/amp, a source, and volume or power being pushed out, such as running at reference level or higher.

I have a mic and REW and see a chart for THD but I’m not familiar on how to interpret it. Perhaps this should be stuck on a different thread. A little general help...?

According to the author John M, the THD measured using REW and the Umik-1 mic is quite accurate. I found some of my old plots. There is no doubt the THDs higher with DEQ, but as expected, only in the low frequencies.

 

[Mitchibo]

According to the author John M, the THD measured using REW and the Umik-1 mic is quite accurate. I found some of my old plots. There is no doubt the THDs higher with DEQ, but as expected, only in the low frequencies.

PENG, back up for a little...I know what HD is however, can you explain what this black line is and how it relates to fq response and how it is contrasted with the top line dB fq?

 

[PENG]

PENG, back up for a little...I know what HD is however, can you explain what this black line is and how it relates to fq response and how it is contrasted with the top line dB fq?

The top line was the measured output of the fundamental in dB.

The lower line was the measured output of the THD, also in dB. The difference in the output level in dB will therefore represents the THD and REW displays the computed %THD from the dB difference point by point along the frequency axis. You can see it by dragging the vertical line along the x axis (frequency). I checked off the individual harmonics so you can see the total harmonic distortions easily.