Is There a Breaking-in Period for an Amplifier?

[highfigh]

Its one way of delaying a return for crappy sound by 300 hours. A very classe move.

I would bet that, using some kind of calculation for listening hours/day by the average user, 300 hours is just a bit outside of the window for their return policy, too.

 

[MrBoat]

I hawe seen this discussions - its obvious there is a break in periode. Study thermodynamics? Now i learned that many substrances like metals expands while heated , and contracts coldening- and then gets different in size... So course impossible too see- but point is: it changes physicaly MEASURABLY a little components, this is small but is it audible - yes i think it is. Thoose who say "nothing measureble physicaly changes" are are simply wrong - metal changes by warm up and scrinkinage as i beleave!

People's perceptions change much more radically than electronics do, just considering moods and emotions. Your hearing can change relevant to the amount of snot or ear wax you may have in your head on any given day. Your hearing can change just from moving from an upright to a reclined position.

The thought that some people tend to 'imagine' their hearing at a constant state of static, calibrated perfection, in which to notice the audible differences between warm and cold electronics really must think highly of themselves. What next, they will be able to tell which side of the +/- tolerances each resistor and capacitor is functioning at? That's right. Many of those components are rated anywhere from 0-10% tolerances on most days before even firing the damn things up!

If they really want to hear a difference, tell them to go blow their nose.

 

[lovinthehd]

I hawe seen this discussions - its obvious there is a break in periode. Study thermodynamics? Now i learned that many substrances like metals expands while heated , and contracts coldening- and then gets different in size... So course impossible too see- but point is: it changes physicaly MEASURABLY a little components, this is small but is it audible - yes i think it is. Thoose who say "nothing measureble physicaly changes" are are simply wrong - metal changes by warm up and scrinkinage as i beleave!

Scrinkinage?

 

[PENG]

I hawe seen this discussions - its obvious there is a break in periode. Study thermodynamics? Now i learned that many substrances like metals expands while heated , and contracts coldening- and then gets different in size... So course impossible too see- but point is: it changes physicaly MEASURABLY a little components, this is small but is it audible - yes i think it is. Thoose who say "nothing measureble physicaly changes" are are simply wrong - metal changes by warm up and scrinkinage as i beleave!

That's funny, I did study thermodynamics in college and university, and therefore know that it has little to do with metal expansion that is covered in high school physics.. Thermodynamics is more about heat, energy and work.

 

[Verdinut]

I wasn't mistaken after all.

I've found the page on which Parasound did mention about the burning-in. It's on Page 7 of the Operating Instructions for the discontinued multi-channel HCA-1206 Power Amp.

Since that time, they must have decided to drop the mention of that questionable topic.

 

[Verdinut]

As I was unsuccessful in downloading Page 7 of the Operation Instructions for the Parasound amp, here is the exact text from the manufacturer:
"Like other great power amplifiers, the HCA-1206 requires at least 72 hours of continuous operation after it is first turned on to sound its best. This gives the materials in various parts a chance to form so audio signals achieve greater definition, smoothness and transparency.
Although the unit will sound spectacular when you first operate it, you will find it worthwhile to listen again after a few days and you'll discover details in your music and videos you may not have guessed were there."

Of course an audio amplifier has nothing to do with video. Another bullshit statement!

 

[killdozzer]

Electronic devices do perform differently if the temperature changes, but the question is "What range of extremes are we talking about and what is the acceptable temperature tolerance of hte devices and circuits?". Thermal failures are easy to replicate- either cool it drastically, or make it hotter- the problem will come and go, depending on which extreme causes it. Can we hear the difference if the ambient temperature is normal? I doubt it. Can the difference be heard if the circuits and devices experience wide temperature fluctuations? Maybe, but it would probably require some kind of design flaw.

Any changes in performance that may occur between the temperature extremes must be deemed 'acceptable' or 'unacceptable' by whomever designs, builds or sells it but even going from the quiescent state to the 'balls out' state will show differences. Again- whether it can be heard is up to the design.

On some quantum level, it's possible some kind of variances will occur- this is one thing that's constant- changes are inevitable.

I know someone who thought his Mark Levinson amps warmed up much faster with the new power cords- cut the time from about two hours to around 20 minutes. I told him that was a load of crap and he said "It's experiential".

Guess who he called to connect the house they just bought.

You really gave a good answer. If you allow, I'd just add that warming and cooling have nothing to do with break-in. If it had anything to do with break-in, it would imply that warming and/or cooling leave a permanent change in material performance AND that it does so only to a certain level where your gear is broken in and stays broken in. It was never a notion of never-ending breaking in.

This is very similar to cryo-copper BS. The explanation of the process would imply that after copper starts conducting better at low temp. it caries on conducting superbly after warmed up back to room temp. I wish it were so, you could make super conductors aplenty, just keep cooling the copper over and over again since it retains all it acquires once cooled.


But that's not the reason I post in this thread. I have a good break in story! I read the leaflet from the box of my Grado headphones. Now, imagine you produce a good piece of equipment but you have to deal with people refusing your excellent product if you don't have some snake-oil inside that the market perceives as necessary. So you try to accommodate both ends of the spectrum. You know that it's most probably the ear that gets familiar with the sound, so you give in just for a little bit, you say: yeah sure, break-in, yeah, just don't leave them playing when they're not on your head.

I found this very clever. If you try to leave your equipment "breaking in" while you're away at work or something, you might get the feeling that it's taking a LOT of time, maybe too long to "break in" your gear. It's just not happening, and then you end up on the What's Best Forum saying 200 hours is not nearly enough for something you bought.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Scrinkinage?

Yes, of course. Didn't you use your micrometer to measure cabinet and chassis expansion and contraction from room temperature to operating temperature and back again?

Unfortunately mine has a 6" capacity only.

 

[mtrycrafts]

As I was unsuccessful in downloading Page 7 of the Operation Instructions for the Parasound amp, here is the exact text from the manufacturer:
"Like other great power amplifiers,

Thanks for this quote. Wish Parasound would list all those "other great" amps.
I would have loved to call them all to see what they have to say.

the HCA-1206 requires at least 72 hours of continuous operation after it is first turned on to sound its best. This gives the materials in various parts a chance to form so audio signals achieve greater definition, smoothness and transparency.

Form? I thought all the parts were formed in the respective factories not by the consumers. Certainly all the parts in my components are formed; don't have a way to form them. I just plug and play.

Although the unit will sound spectacular when you first operate it, you will find it worthwhile to listen again after a few days and you'll discover details in your music and videos you may not have guessed were there."

I am glad they included the word "guessed." That is the crux of it all, guessing a change happened.

Of course an audio amplifier has nothing to do with video. Another bullshit statement!

You know what they say, something like if part of your statement is BS, all is.

 

[Hetfield]

Thanks for this quote. Wish Parasound would list all those "other great" amps.
I would have loved to call them all to see what they have to say.


Form? I thought all the parts were formed in the respective factories not by the consumers. Certainly all the parts in my components are formed; don't have a way to form them. I just plug and play.


I am glad they included the word "guessed." That is the crux of it all, guessing a change happened.


You know what they say, something like if part of your statement is BS, all is.

I haven't been paying close attention to this thread but I have a Parasound HCA 1205a and in don't remember a break in period. I believe in a break in period for speakers but not amps. I could be wrong though, I just don't remember this in my Parasound amp. Great amp though.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

[lovinthehd]

Well, never was very impressed with Parasound, but.....many videos we watch do have audio tracks. Other great amplifiers in itself is pretty funny, tho.

Ah, scrincinage....like George Costanza

 

[KEW]

"Like other great power amplifiers, the HCA-1206 requires at least 72 hours of continuous operation after it is first turned on to sound its best. This gives the materials in various parts a chance to form so audio signals achieve greater definition, smoothness and transparency.

That might be why they discontinued the HCA-1206!
They have no control over the forming of their components.
No doubt consumers would have power interruptions or try to short-cut the continuous 72 hour forming process resulting in mal-formed "only good as a door stop" amp returns! Parasound was probably losing their a$$!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Maybe they should have hour meters on them. You know, like a Boat. Or a lawnmower. Then you can have a big “d” contest with your friends. “Whoah, my amp sounds so much better than yours”. “Just wait until you hit 300 hrs dude”. It’s like getting a brand new amp. Barf....
I totally agree with @MrBoat. Humans are the biggest variable in the whole thing. Can’t believe some think that a melon full of squishy goo could be more consistent than solid state electronics. Forget about listening sessions days apart. Try the same song 3 times in a row. I bet you notice (or guess lol!!!) different things each time.

 

[Mikado463]

Well, never was very impressed with Parasound,

so what were /are you impressed with ??

 

[lovinthehd]

so what were /are you impressed with ??

I was mostly not impressed that an ex-girlfriend was one of their sales reps, who knew nothing about audio and indicated it was somehow beyond my ken (yet she had a cheap department store stereo with a Parasound amp somehow making it all better). Same bs line I got from a friend involved with MIT (the cable charlatans) who indicated it was something I couldn't appreciate without the "right" equipment. At the time I was running Hafler/Carver stuff and thought both she and he were a bit "out there", drinking the kool-aid and all. As long as an amp works well enough for my needs I'm generally happy (and there's many that do that).

 

[killdozzer]

I was mostly not impressed that an ex-girlfriend was one of their sales reps, who knew nothing about audio and indicated it was somehow beyond my ken (yet she had a cheap department store stereo with a Parasound amp somehow making it all better). Same bs line I got from a friend involved with MIT (the cable charlatans) who indicated it was something I couldn't appreciate without the "right" equipment. At the time I was running Hafler/Carver stuff and thought both she and he were a bit "out there", drinking the kool-aid and all. As long as an amp works well enough for my needs I'm generally happy (and there's many that do that).

Since she is now EX, have you ever thought about setting them up? At least you know they have much in common when it comes to audio gear.

 

[Speedskater]

There is a difference between burn-in and warm-up.
There may be ambient temperature differences. (this is not what we think of as warm-up)
There are small measurable differences and there are much larger audible differences.

 

[highfigh]

You really gave a good answer. If you allow, I'd just add that warming and cooling have nothing to do with break-in. If it had anything to do with break-in, it would imply that warming and/or cooling leave a permanent change in material performance AND that it does so only to a certain level where your gear is broken in and stays broken in. It was never a notion of never-ending breaking in.

This is very similar to cryo-copper BS. The explanation of the process would imply that after copper starts conducting better at low temp. it caries on conducting superbly after warmed up back to room temp. I wish it were so, you could make super conductors aplenty, just keep cooling the copper over and over again since it retains all it acquires once cooled.


But that's not the reason I post in this thread. I have a good break in story! I read the leaflet from the box of my Grado headphones. Now, imagine you produce a good piece of equipment but you have to deal with people refusing your excellent product if you don't have some snake-oil inside that the market perceives as necessary. So you try to accommodate both ends of the spectrum. You know that it's most probably the ear that gets familiar with the sound, so you give in just for a little bit, you say: yeah sure, break-in, yeah, just don't leave them playing when they're not on your head.

I found this very clever. If you try to leave your equipment "breaking in" while you're away at work or something, you might get the feeling that it's taking a LOT of time, maybe too long to "break in" your gear. It's just not happening, and then you end up on the What's Best Forum saying 200 hours is not nearly enough for something you bought.

Again, I was saying it may have an effect at a quantum level- if anyone can hear it, they should charge manufacturers for their abilities.

I used Dean Markeley Blue Steel guitar strings for a long time and they did seem to last a long time, but that was when I played more than I do now. They're supposedly cryogenically treated and I can't say they weren't better than what I use now, which is the same brand I used before- I had previously worked at a music store and my price was discounted, so I used them.

Someone who I have referred to several times (says "It's experiential" when someone tries to explain why this stuff is snake oil and it happens to be something he believes in) often says that there's a strange phenomenon in audio- if the price is low, it can't be good and even if the story sounds preposterous, it MUST be good if the price is high. At the low end of price, the thinking is "What's wrong with it?" if it happens to be very good, rather than "Wow! That's a really good value!".

Another fact that can't be ignored- people don't have the ability to remember the finest details after a long time period- we're exposed to too much loud noise that our hearing changes from one listening session to another and it actually can change due to blood pressure fluctuations, so.....

 

[highfigh]

I was mostly not impressed that an ex-girlfriend was one of their sales reps, who knew nothing about audio and indicated it was somehow beyond my ken (yet she had a cheap department store stereo with a Parasound amp somehow making it all better). Same bs line I got from a friend involved with MIT (the cable charlatans) who indicated it was something I couldn't appreciate without the "right" equipment. At the time I was running Hafler/Carver stuff and thought both she and he were a bit "out there", drinking the kool-aid and all. As long as an amp works well enough for my needs I'm generally happy (and there's many that do that).

Well, if the department store amp sounded the same, that would be a problem. I am a Parasound dealer and when I went from a Denon AVR-2311CI to a P5 preamp/A23 power amp combo, I DID hear a difference. A big difference. The Denon's amplifier was not as powerful, the sound was better and I'm not someone who hears something for a few minutes and decides that it makes me a better person. However, I changed two pieces, not just one, so I can't say with certainty that it was one or the other- I think it was both. That said, I still have the A23 in my system and it still has more balls than it did with the Denon, so that says something.

I think the whole "You need to use them with the right equipment" is one of the most condescending things I have heard in AV. That, alone, will make me avoid buying something.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

I think the whole "You need to use them with the right equipment" is one of the most condescending things I have heard in AV. That, alone, will make me avoid buying something.

Well, I would not hook up my boomboxes to that, so, in that case it is correct.

Oh, wait, it might destroy my boxes.
I suppose no use in a car either.