A story about Subjectivists collective egg on face

Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
The last thing a confused person needs is a jackass bloviating and wanking on about how big their mind-lord helmet is.
I was just thinking this exact thing the other day. A wanker bloviating about his mind-lord helmet.
Great minds think alike.
:)
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Here's the difference:

Your score with new set of clubs is an OBJECTIVE measure.

Putting a $400 power supply that makes things worse, from a manufacturer that obviously has no testing/evaluation/analysis going on, into a system and loads of people anecdotally crow about all the veils lifted, better imaging, separation, better extended highs, when we KNOW that measurably the output of the DAC is degraded at best tells us that subjectivists aren't hearing what they think they are and at worst, giving their sighted word credence? They like noise.
The golf score is only one potential objective measure, and if examined is not even objective; it's just a score in a game, which, if it were objective, would instantly kill the betting industry.

What does the number of strokes in a game have to do with your skill as a golfer, when it isn't consistent from day to day or year to year? If you go to a Golf Pro to have your stroke analyzed, he asks what your handicap is and more or less from that point ignores it, as he analyzes what you need to improve and uses his experience ... a subjective value ... to determine what should be improved.

He doesn't measure your improvement by your handicap, he measures it by your form, your hitting power, the way you are able to hit the virtual screen, and so on, by observation. The handicap is akin to the weight of a component ... it's factual, it's measurable, but it isn't an indication of quality beyond some vague previous results, which can be invalidated with a change in tech (Class D, anyone?).

Even professional golfers don't hit the same on the same course with the same weather and course conditions on consecutive days, nor do they have as good a score from course to course comparative to other pro golfers.

Golf scores can vary widely, yet the player's skill remains essentially the same, with only statistical analysis to create some kind of useful measure. What use would an amplifier power rating be if it changed every day, or relied on the mental mood of the equipment (I know equipment has no moods, but if they did, as athletes do, the power rating would be useless as an objective measurement).

The golf score is akin to measuring some value in audio equipment that does not translate to actual performance; such as measuring the dimensions of the device, or measuring total harmonic distortion which has only a casual relationship to sonics (only useful for culling the truly bad gear) while ignoring the harmonic structure of that distortion, which does have an impact on sonics. Even if a measurement can be said to be objective, that does not mean it's actually useful. On the other hand an amplifier with a known threshold value THD that is too high is confirmed by subjective listening, which isn't an argument against the value of subjective listening, it's a confirmation.

Just because someone has made a subjective assessment, or failed to do so, does not invalidate those who are skilled at it when physical elements, experience and training are prerequisites to being actually useful at it. It's a skill, and must be learned. The bozos at CNET might disagree, since they fancy themselves valuable audio reviewers simply because the device plugs into a wall or uses battery power, and that's their area of expertise and experience, while others who are actually skilled at audio evaluation laugh at their mid-grade (or worse) audio sensibilities.

Just like choosing an appropriate measurement criteria, subjective evaluation can be done well or can be done poorly.

I've met many people who judge audio gear solely by the spec sheet and the test results, and ignore the subjective review or the opinions of skilled listeners. Their systems all sounded, well, not "bad" so much as disjointed and offering performance far less than well chosen gear would have done for the same cash outlay. Isn't getting maximum value for your dollar the point of visiting sites like this one? It can't be done with numbers on paper alone, sorry to say.

A Note: with regard to the OP's post, I have tremendous respect for Amir and his seemingly vast knowledge of circuits and measurement techniques. But he's not Mutt Lange or Keith Johnson, who can hear if a musician twisted one of two dozen effects knobs a quarter turn, and can know which of the two is best. We need both types in audio, but you can only learn so many skills in a lifetime.
 
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jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
The golf score is only one potential objective measure, and if examined is not even objective; it's just a score in a game, which, if it were objective, would instantly kill the betting industry.
Nothing potential about it: It's an objective measure. I'm not assigning any particular importance to it. Could have been the wind in your favor that day but because you had new clubs you attributed the improvement to the wrong metric.

What does the number of strokes in a game have to do with your skill as a golfer
Everything. To borrow a phrase of the subjective crowd "It all matters"

when it isn't consistent from day to day or year to year?
Then objectively you aren't a consistent golfer (good or bad)

If you go to a Golf Pro to have your stroke analyzed, he asks what your handicap is and more or less from that point ignores it, as he analyzes what you need to improve and uses his experience ... a subjective value ... to determine what should be improved.
Harman has shown that they can train people to be better listeners. Not sure what the analog in this hobby to a golf handicap is.

He doesn't measure your improvement by your handicap, he measures it by your form, your hitting power, the way you are able to hit the virtual screen, and so on, by observation.
No, by instrumentation. They can to X/Y/Z axis modeling, head rotation as it meets the ball, head speed, break, ball speed, how far the ball would go, what directions. Again OBJECTIVE measurements.

Even professional golfers don't hit the same on the same course with the same weather and course conditions on consecutive days, nor do they have as good a score from course to course comparative to other pro golfers.
Give them ( a pro golfer ) a set of actual wood clubs and they'll know why their game tanked. Give the subjectivist a $400 power supply and while they didn't know it ef's up the DAC's output they'll still rave about the improvement.

Two different things.

The golf score is akin to measuring some value in audio equipment that does not translate to actual performance;
Golf score is the measure of a human being able to accomplish a certain task. Just like bias controlled listening.

I've met many people who judge audio gear solely by the spec sheet and the test results, and ignore the subjective review or the opinions of skilled listeners.
Who are these 'skilled' listeners? What certification process to they go through? Who administers it? How frequently to they recertify?

The PGA runs a certification program for golf pros.

It can't be done with numbers on paper alone, sorry to say.
The thread is about gear that by any modern definition objectively moves ones system AWAY from fidelity. Just by numbers alone we know this. I guess if you are going to try and debate this it's your call. But even the owner of UpTone admits that it's a problem.

Now you may like a less than ideal system, the coloration that such tweaks add and I've no problem with that.


A Note: with regard to the OP's post, I have tremendous respect for Amir and his seemingly vast knowledge of circuits and measurement techniques. But he's not Mutt Lange or Keith Johnson, who can hear if a musician twisted one of two dozen effects knobs a quarter turn, and can know which of the two is best. We need both types in audio, but you can only learn so many skills in a lifetime.
Actually Amir has demonstrated, blind, that he has the prerequisite knowledge to know what to listen for.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
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Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
I'm not going to devolve into a pissing contest, but you logic is fallacious, you contradict yourself, construct a straw man argument, and offer appeals to authority as fact.

Nowhere in any of my posts in this thread do I mention or address the UpTone product. Everything I posted avoids specific references to any one device, because that wasn't the point of my arguments.

For further reading with regard to new clubs and golf scores, see:
Why Things Bite Back: Technology and the Revenge of Unintended Consequences
May 7 1996
by [Prof] Edward Tenner
 
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jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
In re-reading our back and forth I'm quite happy to let our respective posts speak for themselves.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I am still deciding how it sounds but I didn't have to rewire the house and string another run of cheap cable. :D
Why did you use the HP terminal for one and LP for the other?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Room treatments can be as subject to pseudo-science and any other of these components. I wouldn't necessarily ascribe an objectivist perspective to someone who mounts a bunch of goofy stuff to their walls hoping for a better sound.
Mounting goofy stuff on the walls without measuring is guesswork- watching the response problems disappear while moving the treatments makes a big difference but the one thing that's most important- knowing when to stop.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
It seems to me that it's the language, and not the subjective review itself, that people have the most trouble with. What is seemingly a large difference to someone versed in the nomenclature of the insider may be subtle or mis-understood to the novice ... what is a "note of cinnamon, blueberry and sage" supposed to do to help me have some red with dinner if it all just tastes like red wine to me? When my subjective wine language goes "subtle hints of vinegar" versus "a little less subtle hint of vinegar" and ends there?

Let's face it, the difference between good and great Sound Quality isn't even obvious to most people, unless they are somehow exposed to "great" at some point, yet to most of us it is quite obvious. That carries on as someone is exposed to better and better gear, regardless of whether it can be afforded or found (some brands have very limited distribution; how do you hear something with eight dealers nationwide and you live in Bozeman Montana)?

It's a journey. We live in an age when even bad sound is tolerable to most, and I can make out who's playing and get into the qualities of the song on a $100 blaster 20 feet and around the corner while putting up siding on a house. It doesn't sound "terrible" unless I compare it to something that truly excels. I might be sick of hearing "Jingle Bells" in about three weeks from today, but it's not the Sound Quality that causes me to run from the store screaming (just kidding). But ask 10 people to describe that Sound Quality; they don't have the language, there is no reference point to compare to (most haven't heard a truly great system, ever) and they probably have no idea what is possible sound-wise today.

There is another thing that could be at play. There is a well known, repeatable and consistent phenomena in the game of Golf. A player with some skill buys a new set of clubs, and almost immediately his game will improve. *

A few dozen rounds later, his game starts to devolve back to his old handicap. He is not as aware of the subtle changes the new clubs impose, and starts to overthink the stroke, gets a little more uptight, over-compensates, his game starts to go backwards.

Now, put the new clubs back in the garage, and take out the old set. What happens?

The very same thing; his game improves, he starts to over-think the problem, gets a little more uptight, and the score starts to revert to his natural handicap.

It happens in a lot of sport, especially with someone whom is highly skilled and the small changes are more obvious; a hitting slump in baseball, dropped passes in football, shooting over the crossbar in hockey. It happens to everyone at that level to a certain degree and at certain times.

To him, the issues are huge, the changes in his performance loom large. If you were to engage in a pickup game with him, though, he would still be the way-above-average skill player he always has been to you. And you may walk away from that game amazed as to what is possible in sport, having been exposed to a new level of performance.

Now you can see what is missing in your own game, and even in your highly skilled amateur friends, and the differences are now "huge" in comparison.

* This sells a lot of golf clubs. Can you think of a corollary in Audio?
As someone who has golfed for over fifty years, I have been amazed by the willingness of players to use hope as the basis for buying new equipment. I know people who were terrible golfers and had terrible swing, grip, follow through, and not a clue in their head about where the ball went, how to aim, where to hit, how to read a putt- why they continued to play baffled me. However, they all had bought into the idea of "I got a golf guy" or someone told them about the hot setup and they're waiting for it to arrive. I worked with someone who always had things for sale- one time, he asked if I wanted to buy his clubs and he went on about how great they were. I asked why he was selling them and he said he had new ones on the way. I then asked about his handicap and he said it was about 20. I told him "Dude- take a lesson!". He wanted $900 for the clubs he was selling and the new ones were about $1100- for a 20 handicap! He asked what I was using and when I told him, he wrinkled his nose and said they were crap. I was averaging about 80 for 18 holes at the time and it really didn't matter where I played. I have the same clubs now and it's because I still like them. I don't score as well for a round as I did, but I would say that I have a lot more birdies than ever, I have solved my putting problem and my chipping has been very consistently good for years. The problem is that my drives are less consistent and I get into trouble because of that. I hit drives into the fairway that take a bounce and I never see them again.

My point is- it's the swing, dummy! My clubs haven't changed, although I haven't put them through any metallurgical testing. I have changed- I tore up both shoulders, an ankle and I tried to make my right knee bend sideways. Those have made a difference but I worked on my short game and putting to improve them. At my worst, I couldn't make a 2' putt reliably and yet, I was scoring around 80. My crowning achievement was having an 85 with 46 putts. Getting to the green wasn't a problem.

As for how to taste, listen, feel, etc- knowing what to taste, hear, feel, smell, etc doesn't come without someone being a kind of instructor. Imaging? Nobody is going to really have great perception of that without someone explaining what to listen for and this is different from hearing this during the buying process- when that happens, it's likely that whatever is bought will be going back unless the sales person happens to be one of the few who have integrity. These sales people tend to be in the lower half of the sales force but they have more satisfied customers.
 
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