Bi Amping and speaker cable gauge

[matt clark9437284]

Hi,

I have an arcam avr550 and a full B&W CM S2 package (CM9s at front and CM5s at back - 5.1 system). I want to know if Bi amping the fronts (with the currently unused channel 6 & 7) using 14/4 cable will achieve better results than just doubling up the 14/4 cable to reduce the resistance down to 11 AWG? The reason I ask is the CM9s are about a 12metre cable run away from the amp so just over the recommended distance for this gauge of cable.
Hope that makes sense.
Thanks in advance

Matt

 

[killdozzer]

I don't think this is the way to go. When you say channel 6 and 7, which ones are these, what is their purpose? Are these the side speakers? I don't think it is the exact same signal if they're meant to be on the side walls. Sending this signal into mains... I don't know. How many channels does your amp have?

Hopefully your cable is not buried inside the wall and you can change it easily. Get the right gauge and fix it the easiest way.

Bi-amping is rarely of any benefit (it may be in some situations) and if the signal is somehow different than the mains, it might enhance a certain portion of the sound specter coming from your mains (as in doubling on some frequencies but not all).

 

[matt clark9437284]

The 14/4 cables are indeed in the wall !!
The amp is made for this purpose (see extract from manual). It is basically a choice I have to make due to the installed cable. Best option would be to re-install 12/4 cable and have the best of both worlds but I don't want to start stripping it all out.

 

[lovinthehd]

Your 14g alone is just fine at that length. Passive bi-amping, even when speakers/amp terminals accommodate, is still more about marketing than any actual benefit. I'd just leave them doubled up. Check out this table for gauge/length http://roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#wiretable

 

[PENG]

I would replace the 14 awg with 12, 10 awg even better.

 

[highfigh]

I would replace the 14 awg with 12, 10 awg even better.

Why?

Hi,

I have an arcam avr550 and a full B&W CM S2 package (CM9s at front and CM5s at back - 5.1 system). I want to know if Bi amping the fronts (with the currently unused channel 6 & 7) using 14/4 cable will achieve better results than just doubling up the 14/4 cable to reduce the resistance down to 11 AWG? The reason I ask is the CM9s are about a 12metre cable run away from the amp so just over the recommended distance for this gauge of cable.
Hope that makes sense.
Thanks in advance

Matt

Do you really think you'll hear a difference?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Do you really think you'll hear a difference?

Passive bi-amp?

Absolutely positively unequivocally NOT.

 

[matt clark9437284]

Passive bi-amp?

Absolutely positively unequivocally NOT.

could you expand a bit for me. does the term 'passive bi-amp' mean using only one amp rather than mono blocks?? I am quite new to this and trying to work it all out.

So you are saying just put one pair of banana plugs at each end of the 14/4 cable and be done with it??

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So you are saying just put one pair of banana plugs at each end of the 14/4 cable and be done with it??

Absolutely positively unequivocally yes.

I believe that is what everyone is saying.

Passive bi-amp is a total waste of time. Passive bi-amp using the same receiver is even worse!

Most of us experienced guys have tried PASSIVE bi-amp using External Amps.

I've also done active bi-amp, active tri-amp, and active quad-amp using external amps.

Believe it. What you are thinking of doing (passive bi-amp using the same receiver) is a total waste. Use single-amp (use one pair of banana plugs) and never look back.

 

[mtrycrafts]

could you expand a bit for me. does the term 'passive bi-amp' mean using only one amp rather than mono blocks?? ...

To help you a bit more to understand.
Passive bi-amping, same amp, other available channels as yours, two different amps, is using the passive crossover networks in the speaker. This doesn't help.
Active bi-amping, tri, etc, is using an external active electronic crossovers to each drivers in an speaker enclosure. This can.

 

[lovinthehd]

could you expand a bit for me. does the term 'passive bi-amp' mean using only one amp rather than mono blocks?? I am quite new to this and trying to work it all out.

So you are saying just put one pair of banana plugs at each end of the 14/4 cable and be done with it??

Yes.

 

[matt clark9437284]

Ah, I see. So its because of the crossover in the speakers. I think i need to do some reading on how crossovers work to understand further.
Thankyou.

 

[lovinthehd]

Ah, I see. So its because of the crossover in the speakers. I think i need to do some reading on how crossovers work to understand further.
Thankyou.

http://www.audioholics.com/frequent-questions/the-difference-between-biamping-vs-biwiring

 

[matt clark9437284]

thank you, that is useful.

 

[PENG]

Why?

Unless I misunderstood him, he seems to be using 14/4 for his CM9s (L&R) and the length is 12 meter, that is almost 40 ft. The CM9 has minimum impedance of 3 ohms, so to be on the safe side and he may be an "audiophile", he should follow AH's guideline.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-gauge

That would mean his options are either:

- double up the 14/4 for the two CM9s (pair).

- Pull a new 12 awg for each CM9, that would still put him on the margin based on AH's chart. 10 awg will give him a good safety margin and flexibility in case he needs to move the speakers further away for whatever reasons.

If he is already using a 14/4 for each CM9, then he doesn't need to do anything.

Do you really think you'll hear a difference?

No idea, Mine's are either 12 or 10 gauge and nothing longer than 4 meters. He may hear a difference if he is in fact using 14 gauge single runs of 40 ft for each CM9 running full range using low XO.

I do realize that AH chart in the article I linked is a very conservative one.

 

[matt clark9437284]

yes, there is a 14/4 going to each of the CM9s. I wanted to know if i could use this existing cabling to Bi-amp or if I should leave it doubled up. (my understanding is doubled up 14/4 is the equivalent of 11AWG). Just wasn't sure if bi-amping would achieve better results even though I would be going beyond the distance guidelines.
From all of the responses so far, I think it is clear that I should leave it doubled up and completely forget about Bi-amping. The only reason I was considering this was because I am no longer using my receivers zone 2 so channel 6&7 are going spare.

 

[PENG]

yes, there is a 14/4 going to each of the CM9s. I wanted to know if i could use this existing cabling to Bi-amp or if I should leave it doubled up. (my understanding is doubled up 14/4 is the equivalent of 11AWG). Just wasn't sure if bi-amping would achieve better results even though I would be going beyond the distance guidelines.
From all of the responses so far, I think it is clear that I should leave it doubled up and completely forget about Bi-amping. The only reason I was considering this was because I am no longer using my receivers zone 2 so channel 6&7 are going spare.

Thank you for correcting me, so I did misunderstand you. In that case you are fine because the impedance of a double run of 14 gauge is in fact somewhere between that of a single run of 12 and 10 gauge. I agree with others that leaving it the way it is is better than bi-amping using the same 14/4 cables.

 

[highfigh]

Passive bi-amp?

Absolutely positively unequivocally NOT.

That's the reason I asked both questions.

 

[highfigh]

Unless I misunderstood him, he seems to be using 14/4 for his CM9s (L&R) and the length is 12 meter, that is almost 40 ft. The CM9 has minimum impedance of 3 ohms, so to be on the safe side and he may be an "audiophile", he should follow AH's guideline.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-gauge

That would mean his options are either:

- double up the 14/4 for the two CM9s (pair).

- Pull a new 12 awg for each CM9, that would still put him on the margin based on AH's chart. 10 awg will give him a good safety margin and flexibility in case he needs to move the speakers further away for whatever reasons.

If he is already using a 14/4 for each CM9, then he doesn't need to do anything.



No idea, Mine's are either 12 or 10 gauge and nothing longer than 4 meters. He may hear a difference if he is in fact using 14 gauge single runs of 40 ft for each CM9 running full range using low XO.

I do realize that AH chart in the article I linked is a very conservative one.

I asked because I don't remember you advocating 'passive bi-amp' or bi-wiring as a means of improvement, which would make doubling up on the wire the most practical way to achieve this. Since there's no easy way to compare, having one cable is the best method of wiring his speakers and the sound will be what he gets, any inherent neurosis aside.

In the dark years, before we were enlightened to the terrible tragedy of using what was there/ using what we had or settling on wire that worked well enough for lengths that were within the range of the rule of thumb, people who had the better/best equipment didn't really question whether it was good enough- they listened to the music with a smile on their faces and were happy. They wore Kleenex boxes on their feet, but they were happy! (you had feet)?

His second post stated that running new wire wasn't going to happen.

 

[highfigh]

could you expand a bit for me. does the term 'passive bi-amp' mean using only one amp rather than mono blocks?? I am quite new to this and trying to work it all out.

So you are saying just put one pair of banana plugs at each end of the 14/4 cable and be done with it??

The amps don't need to be mono blocks, they don't need to be anything in particular- they just need to be different channels from the ones used for the other pass band, e.g., lows, mids or highs.

Bi-amping is best done with an active crossover ahead of the amplifier(s)- the passive crossover presents a load that causes 'insertion loss', often cutting the actual power to the speakers by half, at a minimum. Passive crossovers also cause some amplifiers to fail at delivering their full power to the speakers because of the complex load or the amp may fail completely.