All this 'listening' business

William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Overlord
If you remember the specs race, you probably remember all of the unbiased (no pun intended) reviews in Stereo Review and Audio magazine. Or not, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE ANY!

I went to a local dealer to hear Len Feldman speak and after the Q&A, we ended up on the elevator with him. He had said that most amplifiers sound the same and we told him he was wrong, in no uncertain terms. I probably wouldn't go about it in the same way now, but I still disagree.

Public address and background music systems are designed using specs unless past experience told the designer that some item is far worse than another. Serious listening isn't happening, so the ultimate sound quality isn't as important as reliability. Concert sound is different, yet very similar. Nothing like under-spec'ing a system (or, all of the equipment for multiple stages) and finding out the hard way that it was inadequate. In Milwaukee, we have a ten day event called 'Summerfest' and one year, someone decided to use a different sound company, which decided that Bose Professional amps and speakers would work- must have thought the big speakers looked too industrial/menacing, or something. They were wrong. Imagine Pat Metheny playing and the amplifiers randomly cutting out/in and there was nothing Metheny could do about it. The next year and every year since, the original sound company has provided the equipment and staff to operate everything, with few problems. Sound quality is generally pretty good, too.
Wow! Just came home from Fond du lac. Wave!!!
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
If you remember the specs race, you probably remember all of the unbiased (no pun intended) reviews in Stereo Review and Audio magazine. Or not, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE ANY!

I went to a local dealer to hear Len Feldman speak and after the Q&A, we ended up on the elevator with him. He had said that most amplifiers sound the same and we told him he was wrong, in no uncertain terms. I probably wouldn't go about it in the same way now, but I still disagree.

Public address and background music systems are designed using specs unless past experience told the designer that some item is far worse than another. Serious listening isn't happening, so the ultimate sound quality isn't as important as reliability. Concert sound is different, yet very similar. Nothing like under-spec'ing a system (or, all of the equipment for multiple stages) and finding out the hard way that it was inadequate. In Milwaukee, we have a ten day event called 'Summerfest' and one year, someone decided to use a different sound company, which decided that Bose Professional amps and speakers would work- must have thought the big speakers looked too industrial/menacing, or something. They were wrong. Imagine Pat Metheny playing and the amplifiers randomly cutting out/in and there was nothing Metheny could do about it. The next year and every year since, the original sound company has provided the equipment and staff to operate everything, with few problems. Sound quality is generally pretty good, too.
I pretty much ignored Stereo Review completely, subscribed to Audio, dB, The Absolute Sound (no-ad version). All three are gone now (unless you count the modern TAS, which I am not fond of). These days it's Stereophile, TapeOps (online), Sound on Sound, and a host of online sites (I don't really spend much time with the reviews here at Audioholics, they are informative but I don't get enough sense as to the sonics from them, sorry Gene).

The key to reviews is, one, to get to know the reviewer, so you can tell if he likes gear and dislikes gear that you have heard and agree generally with, and to resist the urge to buy into the latest gear, which will be talked up because it's the nature of reviewing, but realize what you own may be just fine.

The way most people use them ... to read up on something they can afford and are considering, but without paying any attention or investing the time to the reviewer, and followed by a no-audition purchase is, in my opinion, misguided and is likely to lead to dis-satification.

Even when someone asks for opinions in a forum like this one, without searching the username of the poster whose advice you choose to accept, falls into that category. I have no idea, for example putting you, highfigh, on the spot, so to speak, what you like and dislike versus my own preferences, and I would have to search your post history to learn that. It takes an investment in time, no way around it.

Like it or not, satisfactory home audio is composed of systems, not individual components. Things have to work together, not fight each other, for an enjoyable, truly High End system (which is not, by the way, based on cost, save for getting past the products that cut too many corners out of necessity).

When you can buy a PS Audio Sprout and ELAC speakers, complete with Emotiva cables right from PS Audio online* and have enough change left for a turntable and cartridge for about $1000, done, excellent sound, maybe you have to DIY some stands and a rack of some sort, you can't say High End is expensive. It is not about the money, it's about the end result, and I've heard countless high dollar setups that fail and fail catastrophically.

Nobody said this hobby was easy. But it doesn't have to be hard either.

* Just one example.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
When you can buy a PS Audio Sprout and ELAC speakers, complete with Emotiva cables right from PS Audio online* and have enough change left for a turntable and cartridge for about $1000, done, excellent sound, maybe you have to DIY some stands and a rack of some sort, you can't say High End is expensive. It is not about the money, it's about the end result, and I've heard countless high dollar setups that fail and fail catastrophically.

Nobody said this hobby was easy. But it doesn't have to be hard either.

* Just one example.
You can buy the Sprout for $499, but what about the power cord? Their AC12 is $799, 60% more than the Sprout! At least it's their best sounding power cord. :D

Does the sprout even come with a power cord?
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
U7YBG
You can buy the Sprout for $499, but what about the power cord? Their AC12 is $799, 60% more than the Sprout! At least it's their best sounding power cord. :D

Does the sprout even come with a power cord?
No one considering the Sprout as their main system integrated / phono pre / DAC would be also considering the AC12 power cord. I fail to see the connection. And yes, the Sprout does come with one. Which I heartily recommend buyers use.

The Sprout / ELAC speaker combo comes with all cables necessary, including speaker cable by Emotiva. No need to travel to the cable store, or enter into a "Snake Oil" debate. Just power up and enjoy.

Nor do I think there is any reason to call out the Sprout / ELAC combo I mentioned for any reason. There are many other options available, which is what "just one example" from my post was intended to, and simply does, mean.

The reason, of course, why I did mention that combo is because I have heard both, and would recommend them. I don't recommend anything I haven't heard personally.
 
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slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Nor do I think there is any reason to call out the Sprout / ELAC combo I mentioned for any reason.

The reason, of course, why I did mention that combo is because I have heard both, and would recommend them. I don't recommend anything I haven't heard personally.
Oh, there is certainly a big reason to call out the Sprout!

It does not have a normal SS amp ruler-flat FR. The FR has been intentionally tweaked by design. Furthermore, just taking a look at the stereophile page, it mentions some ultra-sonic noise that had to be filtered out for the measurements.

You could have used that statement "no reason to call out.....insert any amplifier except the sprout".

https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-sprout-integrated-amplifier-measurements

Get a look at the FR for the Sprout:

 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
U7YBG


No one considering the Sprout as their main system integrated / phono pre / DAC would be also considering the AC12 power cord. I fail to see the connection. And yes, the Sprout does come with one. Which I heartily recommend buyers use.

The Sprout / ELAC speaker combo comes with all cables necessary, including speaker cable by Emotiva. No need to travel to the cable store, or enter into a "Snake Oil" debate. Just power up and enjoy.

Nor do I think there is any reason to call out the Sprout / ELAC combo I mentioned for any reason. There are many other options available, which is what "just one example" from my post was intended to, and simply does, mean.

The reason, of course, why I did mention that combo is because I have heard both, and would recommend them. I don't recommend anything I haven't heard personally.
Unfortunately, too many companies expect people to buy their products, based on written testimonies and marketing blurbs- I'm with you, on not recommending what I haven't seen/heard but manufacturers do that to us, as dealers- we sell their speakers and they come out with something new and expect to be able to sell more just on past performance. While that may be OK for some things, it's risky when the selling price is high and the company charges a return fee in the event that they aren't going to work out.

I wasn't calling out the Sprout, but they didn't show the accessories that come with it (unless I didn't look hard enough). It looks like a nice piece- I hope they don't have any problems with the analog volume control. However, the power cord description stating that it's the best sounding cord they have bothers me quite a bit. I looked at their power conditioners & restorers, too- they offer White Glove delivery. Nice.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
Is that really an FR??? I am shocked that in this day and age we have something like that peddled to anyone.
If that amp wasn't meant to be paired with a specific speaker with a response like that, that is really quite bad. It looks like it is not defeatable as well. I can't believe anyone would think that is a good idea.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
If that amp wasn't meant to be paired with a specific speaker with a response like that, that is really quite bad. It looks like it is not defeatable as well. I can't believe anyone would think that is a good idea.
Don't know but I think they are still in business so there must be enough customers who think this is a good performing amp. :rolleyes:
 
killdozzer

killdozzer

Audioholic Samurai
@Johnny2Bad I agree with a lot of what you're saying short for the examples you're using in your posts since I haven't heard the gear from those examples. This leads me right to the point; this thread is not saying "start buying blind (or deaf)".

It was me stating my opinion that knowing how ears "work" I'd even distrust them juuuust a tinny bit. My entire thread (opinion) might be summarized using a case of an optical illusion. In this case audible illusion. When you put your spoon in a glass of water it looks broken in half, but you're not throwing it away because of that. You're not acting upon this visual data. Because there's the "knowing" that outranks an occasional optical illusion.

If you spend 10 years listening to a TT with a heavy rumble and get use to it, you might just think that is how it's suppose to be. You might even go look for another one with heavy rumble because the one without it might seem as under-performing.

This is very similar to how I understand the break-in (not just me, but me as well). Your ears are getting use to what you hear. When the break-in is over it is your ears that simply got accustomed, the process is over and IMO this is the moment you should ask yourself what have you asked your ears to get accustomed to.

I see it as a choice. No matter what I choose, as long as it's not obviously horrible, my ears WILL get accustomed to it.

I wouldn't choose Sprout because I wouldn't want that to be my new standard (after what the guys said about the graph). I'd simply choose to get my ears accustomed to well performing equipment with mandatory audition and satisfying sound.

So I said it once already; NEVER without listening, but choose among the achievers.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
If that amp wasn't meant to be paired with a specific speaker with a response like that, that is really quite bad. It looks like it is not defeatable as well. I can't believe anyone would think that is a good idea.
Millennial hipsters seems to be the target audience :rolleyes:
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
@Johnny2Bad

If you spend 10 years listening to a TT with a heavy rumble and get use to it, you might just think that is how it's suppose to be. You might even go look for another one with heavy rumble because the one without it might seem as under-performing.

This is very similar to how I understand the break-in (not just me, but me as well). Your ears are getting use to what you hear. When the break-in is over it is your ears that simply got accustomed, the process is over and IMO this is the moment you should ask yourself what have you asked your ears to get accustomed to.

I see it as a choice. No matter what I choose, as long as it's not obviously horrible, my ears WILL get accustomed to it.

I wouldn't choose Sprout because I wouldn't want that to be my new standard (after what the guys said about the graph). I'd simply choose to get my ears accustomed to well performing equipment with mandatory audition and satisfying sound.

So I said it once already; NEVER without listening, but choose among the achievers.
I installed a car stereo system in a Pontiac GTA (Grand Trans Am) after the previous equipment had been stolen and unfortunately & typically, the salesman sold a subwoofer that was made for an enclosure that was larger than would fit in the car, so we went with an isobaric bandpass. That was tricky because it was a very difficult shape to make using material that comes in sheet form (MDF). The day I finished happened to be the day our company was hosting an IASCA event (International Auto Sound Challenge Association) and at the time I was ready to finish the setup, I found that the RTA was already outside, too far to go out and get it for this use. I suppose I could have driven the car outside, but it needed to be finished before he paid for the work. The department manager and I got in, listened and tweaked the Alpine parametric equalizer by ear, discussing any changes that we thought were necessary. Once we were finished setting the levels for the speakers and equalizing it, the car left and entered the contest. It scored 37 out of 40 points in the RTA test, imaged extremely well and the bass was tight, deep and clean which was amazing since it had a pair of 4" x 6" coaxial speakers in the dash, a pair of 6" x 9" mid-bass in the rear pillars and the two Infinity subs. No mid-bass speakers in the front at all and that goes against most recommendations for system design but it was all we could do under the circumstances.

Everyone thought it sounded great and the car owner collected his prize. He hated it so much that he walked to the MTX booth to buy a bass CD, went to a remote corner of the parking lot and cranked it up so loud that he blew the crap out of the subwoofers. The last system had a pair of Orion 10" woofers mounted in a board with gaps around the edges and the sound could never have been described as anything other than 'distorted, farting and terrible'. When we described the sound of the proposed system, he was excited by the prospect, but hated the results, which were as we had described.

WRT to the Sprout mated with the ELAC (or other speakers with similar response), I would bet it sounds pretty good, but only because the speakers' low end rolls off at a complimentary rate to the amplifier's peak.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Does it come with a vest, tweed jacket, jeans with the cuffs rolled up, plaid flannel or blue work shirt, engineer's boots and a fedora?
Thought you were describing Elvis Costello :)
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Thought you were describing Elvis Costello :)
If we want to put a name to it, maybe Elvis Springsteen would be accurate. If we add the dreaded Man Bun or the hair piled up and combed back with a big beard, I may puke.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Oh, there is certainly a big reason to call out the Sprout!

It does not have a normal SS amp ruler-flat FR. The FR has been intentionally tweaked by design. Furthermore, just taking a look at the stereophile page, it mentions some ultra-sonic noise that had to be filtered out for the measurements.

You could have used that statement "no reason to call out.....insert any amplifier except the sprout".

https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-sprout-integrated-amplifier-measurements

Get a look at the FR for the Sprout:

" ...
Fig.1 PS Audio Sprout, volume control set to maximum, frequency response at 2.83V into: simulated loudspeaker load (gray), 8 ohms (left channel blue, right red), 4 ohms (left cyan, right magenta), 2 ohms (green) (2dB/vertical div.).
..."

Note the response into the simulated speaker load. It is not an 8 ohm resistor (or 4 ohm, or 2 ohm). It is a complex load typical of a crossover and loudspeakers. No other review site uses such a load and I find the information useful, but it is not a simple 8 ohm (4 ohm, 2ohm) frequency response curve as measured by most reviewers.

The Sprout's response into Stereophile's SLL is pretty decent, it's deviation from flat suiting the speakers it is likely to be used with. Many amplifiers show much more variation, into Stereophile's SSL, especially between 100 and 20 KHz, where the Sprout is pretty flat.

The absence of changes when compared to the resistive loads means the Sprout has a very low output impedance, a useful feature in an amp. It means it will sound essentially the same with different speakers.

And of course you are well aware that the graph can look "bad" or "good" depending on how it's presented (the scale). So the shape may seem alarming, but I've seen worse performing FR curves presented in such a way that they look excellent.

Which is why ... can't believe this is swinging to be on-topic, so rare in these Audioholics threads, but it is ... you should listen to your prospective purchase before you buy it, and afterward as well, in case you decide to return it.

As for the ultrasonic filter ...
" ...
As the Sprout is a class-D amplifier—it uses an output module sourced from the Scandinavian Elan/Abletec company—it produces ultrasonic noise that would overload the Audio Precision's input circuitry. I therefore performed most of the tests using, ahead of the analyzer, an Audio Precision AUX-0025 passive low-pass filter, which eliminates noise above 200kHz. (Without the filter and with no signal, there was 200mV of ultrasonic noise with a center frequency around 400kHz present at the Sprout's speaker terminals.) ..."

The ultrasonic noise is present in any and all Class D amplifiers. Not many reviewers have access to an Audio Precision SYS2722 Audio Analyzer as Stereophile does. It's not your "average audio analyzer" and costs $US 30,000.00. It's ability to measure well above 200 KHz is the reason the filter is required.

And finally, and I can't believe I have to say this out loud, but apparently I do ... if you don't like the Sprout, don't buy one and seek out something else more to your liking. But please listen to it first.
 
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P

pewternhrata

Audioholic Chief
It was probably around 15 yrs ago, I listened to a demo for Bose (the little cubes). They had large speaker boxes to hide the small cubes, when the demo was over they uncovered the cubes and it was quite impressive. A few years later I came across this site and read a lot of positive reviews on b&w, unknown to me at the time. I went to a reputable dealer. They first played the Bose, it was still impressive (to my ears). Then they played the b&w, the Bose instantly sounded like a toy, complete garbage. I also listened to some Martin Logan's and purchased the montage along with a b&w lcr600s3. To this day, I'll hear some friends Bose systems and think its not too bad. I believe, unless you are able to hear different speakers at the same time, side by side, they all can sound good. It's not until a direct comparison that the differences can entirely be heard, well to an audio guy yes, but a noob, no. By the time someone new to audio drives from store a, b, c, the time in between, they forget the detail between speakers a b and c. Specs are often manipulated, but so is an untrained ear.

Until said speaker is placed into its room and treatments, eq, placement and so on, the full potential of that speaker will not be heard, not at the store, not on paper. What sounded good in store, may sound like garbage at home, we all know how much even placement can change characteristics. I think for a beginner the best advise is to read up on room layout, if it's a small or large room, how much speaker someone really needs before even contemplating which brands to purchase.
 
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