2.2 to 5.2 or more

[Beowulf]

Hey guys, it's been a while since I posted and I did a search and didn't quite find what I was looking for so I thought I would say hello and ask for some advice for my situation.

I'm looking for advice on integrating a home theater setup into my 2 channel setup. I had a 5.1 system about a decade ago with Vienna Acoustics and B&K Components pre/pro and amp and then I moved to a smaller place and sold all of that gear and went to a 2.2 channel system that is geared more towards hi-fi music playback than movies. We still enjoy and watch movies on my hi-fi kit daily and I don't feel I'm missing anything (maybe ignorance is bliss), but I haven't heard or paid much attention to the current tech out there like Dolby Atmos, DTS:X or Aura 3D, etc.

The main reason I'm reaching out is that I'm building a custom home and while it won't have a dedicated space for hi-fi and movie playback, I will be able to pre-wire the house so it's ready for what's currently available on the market.

Since music playback has a higher preference for us ~ I want to keep my 2.2 system as close to possible of what I already have (because I think it kicks a$$ as is ) and then incorporate/build a mid-tier home theater playback system around my hi-fi system.

My current system is:
Preamp = McIntosh C220 Tube Preamp.
Amplifier = Decware Taboo MK II @ 6 watts.
Loudspeakers = Omega single drivers @ 95db 8 ohms.
Source 1 = McIntosh D100 DAC
Source 2 = Rega RP6 Turntable
Source 3 = Cable Box
Source 4 = WD My Cloud NAS
Source 5 = Asus Vivo PC (HTPC w/Windows 10 and JRiver Media Player).
Monitor = Samsung 65" HDTV
Misc. = Decware and Zen Wave Audio cables and Monster HTS 3600 Power Center.

I pretty much only stream movies and music through my WD NAS and online sources such as Tidal (for music) and HBO Go, Showtime, Amazon (for movies) and very rarely Cox Cable. I don't rent or buy movie discs anymore and although I own a Blu-Ray player it is not even hooked up since all of my movies and music are ripped to my NAS.

Since my music/home theater will be in a great room (kitchen/dining/living combined) there is no back wall which pretty much leaves rear surrounds and any side channels to in-ceiling mounted and I prefer them to be discreet in appearance anyways. I could get a matching center channel from Omega, but I think I would prefer an in-wall for the center as well. I will be buying a 4K television and my current Mac Preamp does not have HT pass through, so I will look into another Mac preamp in the future that does.

So with that in mind and knowing I don't want to change my 2 channel playback ...

1. What would you guys recommend?
2. How many speakers do I need to keep up with the tech that's current in the market?
3. Can it even be done at all if all the supporting speakers are ceiling mounted?
4. Is it as simple as just getting a decent HT Receiver and a bunch of speakers?
5. Or should I just get a soundbar?

By the way, I don't need anything that is top of the line, just solid performance. Thanks in advance if you've made it this far and for any advice you could offer on the best and economical (best bang for the buck) way to do this.

 

[ScottAllenLogan]

No sound bar will ever give you the separation of discreet channels properly mounted and aligned corresponding to the protocol of choice. As we all know, higher frequencies become more directional. The main goal of three dimensional sound, is exactly that: adding a third dimension. If I was in your position, I would look into spreading small, but well designed speakers around in as many locations as your room will allow, to achieve the highest number of discreet channels - which will be typically between 9 & 11 or even 13, depending on how much you want to spend and what you have room for. Getting your hands on one of the higher tier Denon units will give you 9 amplified channels all directly from the amp and all of the decoding bells and whistles and then I suggest you look into the better value speaker systems and thankfully, there are now some really excellent choices. You would then hang onto your current system and use that strictly for two channel audio and use the new AVR for your video needs. I currently have my big Avalon speakers hooked up to Marantz Monoblocks for two channel and then run my 7.4.2 setup with a Denon 6300 and a couple Marantz 7025 amps on my RSL speakers that I absolutely love, along with a couple of the RSL Speedwoofers. Lately, I’ve been experimenting with incorporating my Avalon’s in with the whole surround setup and it’s astounding. I know it’s akin to blasphemy, but running two channel audio into multi-stereo using everything for situations like concert footage that I routinely get sucked into via the Quello concert app. Is a sonic paradise with my current setup. So, the big answer is that yes... once you experience true Atmos with the proper setup, everything else kinda sounds like crap. ...to me. (Though I’m certainly not alone here ). Throw in a properly mixed Atmos album from Roger Waters and you’ll absolutely want more channels. Simply mesmerizing. Enjoy!


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[ScottAllenLogan]

As far as your Center channel goes, I’m happy with my RSL CG-24, but it is most definitely the next upgrade now that I’m using the Avalon’s more and more for L & R with video. I plan on working that part out now myself as well.


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[Beowulf]

No sound bar will ever give you the separation of discreet channels properly mounted and aligned corresponding to the protocol of choice. As we all know, higher frequencies become more directional. The main goal of three dimensional sound, is exactly that: adding a third dimension. If I was in your position, I would look into spreading small, but well designed speakers around in as many locations as your room will allow, to achieve the highest number of discreet channels - which will be typically between 9 & 11 or even 13, depending on how much you want to spend and what you have room for. Getting your hands on one of the higher tier Denon units will give you 9 amplified channels all directly from the amp and all of the decoding bells and whistles and then I suggest you look into the better value speaker systems and thankfully, there are now some really excellent choices. You would then hang onto your current system and use that strictly for two channel audio and use the new AVR for your video needs. I currently have my big Avalon speakers hooked up to Marantz Monoblocks for two channel and then run my 7.4.2 setup with a Denon 6300 and a couple Marantz 7025 amps on my RSL speakers that I absolutely love, along with a couple of the RSL Speedwoofers. Lately, I’ve been experimenting with incorporating my Avalon’s in with the whole surround setup and it’s astounding. I know it’s akin to blasphemy, but running two channel audio into multi-stereo using everything for situations like concert footage that I routinely get sucked into via the Quello concert app. Is a sonic paradise with my current setup. So, the big answer is that yes... once you experience true Atmos with the proper setup, everything else kinda sounds like crap. ...to me. (Though I’m certainly not alone here ). Throw in a properly mixed Atmos album from Roger Waters and you’ll absolutely want more channels. Simply mesmerizing. Enjoy!


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Hi Scott, thanks for the feedback. WOW ... are people really putting 13 speakers in their homes? I had no idea it had gone this far LOL!

I'm hesitant to put 13 speakers in my ceiling though (as mentioned above it's the only place I can put all those channels). It's an open beam ceiling (no drywall) with lots of wood up there so although I'm sure it would sound pretty cool, but it's not a dedicated room so I need to keep a leash on this project for both aesthetic and cost reasons.

What is the bare minimum of speakers one would need to do Dobly Atmos and DTS:X?

p.s. it sounds like you have a great setup going on!

 

[yepimonfire]

Have you tried using Dolby surround for multichannel music playback? Stereo sucks imo, and the new upmixers included with atmos are 1000x more accurate than old prologic II, it’s like expanding the stereo illusion sweet spot to everywhere around the room. With acoustic recordings and classical, it’s almost true to life imaging of the space recorded in.

I actually prefer mounted bookshelf speakers for atmos vs in ceiling, better dynamics and timbre matching.

How big is your room and what speakers do you have for the 2ch system.


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[everettT]

what speakers do you have for the 2ch system.


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See post 1. I'd say based on his gear and post 1, 2ch is very important to him.

 

[yepimonfire]

See post 1. I'd say based on his gear and post 1, 2ch is very important to him.

Don’t know how I missed it.

I’m going to assume the two speakers are fairly expensive, and that using similar speakers from the same line in a multichannel setup is going to be cost prohibitive? You had also mentioned in walls, which omega doesn’t appear to offer. You could always just have a separate system for HT and just connect the omegas to a switch box for music listening, and that’s what I would do, since timbre matching across the front especially is very important.

Unfortunately, putting surround speakers in the ceiling is a terrible idea, but, if it must be done, you give up atmos, as atmos requires floor/ceiling separation.

You mentioned not having room for rear surrounds, no big deal, rear surrounds aren’t that big of an improvement anyways, but what does the layout of the room look like? If there is any way possible of placing the side surrounds either on stands or on the wall that would be ideal.


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[Beowulf]

Don’t know how I missed it.

I’m going to assume the two speakers are fairly expensive, and that using similar speakers from the same line in a multichannel setup is going to be cost prohibitive? You had also mentioned in walls, which omega doesn’t appear to offer. You could always just have a separate system for HT and just connect the omegas to a switch box for music listening, and that’s what I would do, since timbre matching across the front especially is very important.

Unfortunately, putting surround speakers in the ceiling is a terrible idea, but, if it must be done, you give up atmos, as atmos requires floor/ceiling separation.

You mentioned not having room for rear surrounds, no big deal, rear surrounds aren’t that big of an improvement anyways, but what does the layout of the room look like? If there is any way possible of placing the side surrounds either on stands or on the wall that would be ideal.


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Yes, 2 channel takes precedence over multi-channel for me. I have worked a long time to get components that really gel with one another. I'm a detail, soundstage and imaging freak and my setup as is gives a really detailed and spooky holographic image (especially during vinyl playback, but my DAC is no slouch either) being able to place where the musicians were during the recording session (at least the way the mastering engineer intends for you to hear it).

I had (a decade ago) a 5.1 setup with a B&K Comp Pre/pro and amp and I think it was Dolby II where I could reproduce multi-channel audio on SACDs and DVD-As and I did not find it all that impressive. But I have not heard the latest Atmos tech being used that way and I am very interested in the Quello concerts.

My speakers Omega are really not all that expensive (in comparison to a lot of brands), but they are a niche product and sort of resemble these except my Rythmik Audio/GR Research Servo Subs are in their own matching cabinets (not as shown in the Omega picture). I could get another Omega as a center channel to match, but for aesthetic reasons I was thinking I would put a center in-wall and the surrounds in-ceiling.

It's a great room with a living/dining/kitchen combined and that entire space is about 22'x33', but with a fireplace that sort of divides/defines the living room area to approximately a 22' x 15' space. The main reason I need to do in-ceiling is because its floor to ceiling glass in a lot of areas.

My house is not built yet, but this picture will give you a good idea of what the space will be like (glass walls, rooms defined by fireplace, etc.)

But it looks as if Atmos cannot work with just in ceiling speakers is that correct? If so, I may need to forego the whole idea and just stick with what I have though maybe I should still pre-wire that area just in case?

Thanks!

 

[lovinthehd]

I had (a decade ago) a 5.1 setup with a B&K Comp Pre/pro and amp and I think it was Dolby II where I could reproduce multi-channel audio on SACDs and DVD-As and I did not find it all that impressive. But I have not heard the latest Atmos tech being used that way and I am very interested in the Quello concerts.

DolbyPLII would be an upmixer to take 2ch content to 5ch. If you were using multi-ch SACD/DVD content, DolbyPLII would only be a sound mode tweak if used (the alternate being direct/pure direct or another sound mode depending on avr). The latest Dolby Surround upmixer has been getting much praise for upmixing of 2.0 content, even if not in an Atmos setup.

Hopefully your new room will be more acoustics-friendly than the one in your pic....

 

[Beowulf]

DolbyPLII would be an upmixer to take 2ch content to 5ch. If you were using multi-ch SACD/DVD content, DolbyPLII would only be a sound mode tweak if used (the alternate being direct/pure direct or another sound mode depending on avr). The latest Dolby Surround upmixer has been getting much praise for upmixing of 2.0 content, even if not in an Atmos setup.

From the specs it had THX Ultra 2 certification and post processing

• Dolby digital EX and DTS ES matrix decoding

• DTS ES 6.1 discrete decoding

• Dolby pro logic II and DTS Neo:6

• DTS 96/24

At the time it was pretty cutting edge though this was before HDMI became popular. I used a Pioneer Elite Universal Disc Player that had DVD/DVD-A/SACD processing. I had 5 discreet RCA cables coming from my Pioneer Player into my Pre/pro if I can remember right it had something to do with keeping the signal PCM and bypassing any additional digital mixing.

Hopefully your new room will be more acoustics-friendly than the one in your pic....

Nope ... it will closely resemble the picture . Lots of glass, very open, beamed ceilings, etc. Though the back wall and about 1/4th of the side walls (where the audio equipment will be located) will be acoustically treated with paneling, curtains and a dedicated circuit exclusively for my audio equipment. It's all a little give and take.

So guys can you clarify a couple things for me please?

1. Do you need floor standing speakers to implement Dolby Atmos or can this be all done with in-ceiling? If it can be done, can you name some brands I should look into?

2. What is the minimum speakers I should consider pre-wring my house for if I might want to try Atmos in the future? One person above mentioned 13, but there's no way I want to install 13 in-ceiling speakers into all that wood unless they were super tiny .

 

[everettT]

From the specs it had THX Ultra 2 certification and post processing

• Dolby digital EX and DTS ES matrix decoding

• DTS ES 6.1 discrete decoding

• Dolby pro logic II and DTS Neo:6

• DTS 96/24

At the time it was pretty cutting edge though this was before HDMI became popular. I used a Pioneer Elite Universal Disc Player that had DVD/DVD-A/SACD processing. I had 5 discreet RCA cables coming from my Pioneer Player into my Pre/pro if I can remember right it had something to do with keeping the signal PCM and bypassing any additional digital mixing.



Nope ... it will closely resemble the picture . Lots of glass, very open, beamed ceilings, etc. Though the back wall and about 1/4th of the side walls (where the audio equipment will be located) will be acoustically treated with paneling, curtains and a dedicated circuit exclusively for my audio equipment. It's all a little give and take.

So guys can you clarify a couple things for me please?

1. Do you need floor standing speakers to implement Dolby Atmos or can this be all done with in-ceiling? If it can be done, can you name some brands I should look into?

2. What is the minimum speakers I should consider pre-wring my house for if I might want to try Atmos in the future? One person above mentioned 13, but there's no way I want to install 13 in-ceiling speakers into all that wood unless they were super tiny .

With that rendering, unless you have a lot of upholstery and window treatments, you might have more than a few issues. If you care about your 2ch music, and none of the listed treatments, you might want to find another room more suitable just for your music listening. That floor, ceiling, and glass will make the best speakers sound meh..

 

[Beowulf]

With that rendering, unless you have a lot of upholstery and window treatments, you might have more than a few issues. If you care about your 2ch music, and none of the listed treatments, you might want to find another room more suitable just for your music listening. That floor, ceiling, and glass will make the best speakers sound meh..

Yeah, I realize it might be hard to tame, but I'm up to the challenge ... as mentioned above there will be acoustic paneling along the back, side and first reflection areas, curtains, etc. but this space is what it is and it's where my kit needs to go as there is no other rooms available. I'm not expecting miracles and I'm not building my house around my audio equipment either, so I'm just going to try and get the best sound out of it as possible.

Anyways I'm not trying to get feedback on the acoustics of my room, I'm trying to get feedback on wiring for any future uses of things like Dolby Atmos, DTS:X and Aura 3D, etc. and if it can be completed with mostly in-ceiling speakers and how many will be needed for the bare minimum to achieve playback of these technologies.

Thanks anyways though

 

[everettT]

Ok to answer you question on ceiling mounted, yes not a problem for atmos dtsx, and side surrounds. On how many speakers, I'd prewire for 6 in ceiling, even if you just do 4 On AVRs, buy the one with the features you want, but I recommend one with preouts for all channels. As to integration with your current speakers, that's really up to you. You said you want solid performance so maybe a realistic budget might help with that one.

Yeah, I realize it might be hard to tame, but I'm up to the challenge ... as mentioned above there will be acoustic paneling along the back, side and first reflection areas, curtains, etc. but this space is what it is and it's where my kit needs to go as there is no other rooms available. I'm not expecting miracles and I'm not building my house around my audio equipment either, so I'm just going to try and get the best sound out of it as possible.

Anyways I'm not trying to get feedback on the acoustics of my room, I'm trying to get feedback on wiring for any future uses of things like Dolby Atmos, DTS:X and Aura 3D, etc. and if it can be completed with mostly in-ceiling speakers and how many will be needed for the bare minimum to achieve playback of these technologies.

Thanks anyways though

 

[lovinthehd]

From the specs it had THX Ultra 2 certification and post processing

• Dolby digital EX and DTS ES matrix decoding

• DTS ES 6.1 discrete decoding

• Dolby pro logic II and DTS Neo:6

• DTS 96/24

At the time it was pretty cutting edge though this was before HDMI became popular. I used a Pioneer Elite Universal Disc Player that had DVD/DVD-A/SACD processing. I had 5 discreet RCA cables coming from my Pioneer Player into my Pre/pro if I can remember right it had something to do with keeping the signal PCM and bypassing any additional digital mixing.



Nope ... it will closely resemble the picture . Lots of glass, very open, beamed ceilings, etc. Though the back wall and about 1/4th of the side walls (where the audio equipment will be located) will be acoustically treated with paneling, curtains and a dedicated circuit exclusively for my audio equipment. It's all a little give and take.

So guys can you clarify a couple things for me please?

1. Do you need floor standing speakers to implement Dolby Atmos or can this be all done with in-ceiling? If it can be done, can you name some brands I should look into?

2. What is the minimum speakers I should consider pre-wring my house for if I might want to try Atmos in the future? One person above mentioned 13, but there's no way I want to install 13 in-ceiling speakers into all that wood unless they were super tiny .

Not sure what your point is about the features it had, particularly the THX thing. SACDs weren't encoded with Dolby so the decoding modes don't matter, altho many avrs have a similarly named sound mode, but if you were using analog inputs usually all the processing was bypassed in any case. Sounds like you were using the resultant direct modes from the analog input. Maybe you just didn't like it, maybe your setup was off. Hard to know...

Atmos should be done with in or on-ceiling speakers, not modules placed on speakers in normal positiions. YMMV. I'd want to pre-wire for 4-6 ceiling positions if I were going that route (I'm not, don't want to screw around with my own ceiling). All that glass and wood won't make for good acoustics was my point, what looks good to your aesthetic sense doesn't necessarily to what sounds good.

 

[Beowulf]

Not sure what your point is about the features it had, particularly the THX thing. SACDs weren't encoded with Dolby so the decoding modes don't matter, altho many avrs have a similarly named sound mode, but if you were using analog inputs usually all the processing was bypassed in any case. Sounds like you were using the resultant direct modes from the analog input. Maybe you just didn't like it, maybe your setup was off. Hard to know...

Atmos should be done with in or on-ceiling speakers, not modules placed on speakers in normal positiions. YMMV. I'd want to pre-wire for 4-6 ceiling positions if I were going that route (I'm not, don't want to screw around with my own ceiling). All that glass and wood won't make for good acoustics was my point, what looks good to your aesthetic sense doesn't necessarily to what sounds good.

My point was not really pertinent I guess other than the fact that it was not really impressive playback wise in 5.1, but movies and 2 channel sounded pretty good. I'm hoping that the newer tech may be a bit more involving.

Yeah, I understand about the acoustics, but it's not all about the perfect room for music or movie playback (which obviously this isn't). I'm just going to have to deal with it when the time comes.

Thanks for the recommendation on the speakers. It's the exact information I was looking for. Would you say 3 up front in-ceiling speakers and 2 rear or side?

 

[Beowulf]

Ok to answer you question on ceiling mounted, yes not a problem for atmos dtsx, and side surrounds. On how many speakers, I'd prewire for 6 in ceiling, even if you just do 4 On AVRs, buy the one with the features you want, but I recommend one with preouts for all channels. As to integration with your current speakers, that's really up to you. You said you want solid performance so maybe a realistic budget might help with that one.

Thanks, more great information! Let's say I would put 2k into the AVR and another 2k into the ceiling speakers and/or mixing it up say 1k for the AVR and 3k for the speakers, etc. (in other words a 4k budget is about the max I could go). Would that get me some solid performance?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

No. You can not do atmos with all in ceiling speakers. One of the reasons it works is the differential in height from the side surrounds/mains to the atmos speakers. IMO even regular surround implementation should not be done in ceiling either, but atmos will not be effective with all speakers in ceiling. As far as mounting surrounds, there are a couple ways to go for a standard setup where they’d be about 6’ off the ground. Omnimount makes some ceiling mounts that extend down from the ceiling. Or you could do the popular thing these days and use some iron pipe, and flanges, and fittings for a steampunk thing. For atmos, you’ll want the surround speakers just above ear height when seated, so regular floor stands would work there, and then mount the atmos speakers in the ceiling, or bookshelf’s on the ceiling. Upfiring modules are available, but they’re not as effective, and given the reflect nature of the room already, it will likely be a mess.

Or something like this, but for a speaker.

 

[lovinthehd]

My point was not really pertinent I guess other than the fact that it was not really impressive playback wise in 5.1, but movies and 2 channel sounded pretty good. I'm hoping that the newer tech may be a bit more involving.

Yeah, I understand about the acoustics, but it's not all about the perfect room for music or movie playback (which obviously this isn't). I'm just going to have to deal with it when the time comes.

Thanks for the recommendation on the speakers. It's the exact information I was looking for. Would you say 3 up front in-ceiling speakers and 2 rear or side?

Not that it's a perfect room but more like a far-from-perfect room....one I wouldn't even bother wiring but that's me....that room doesn't appeal whatsoever.

The thought of three in-ceiling speakers for the fronts makes me want to cry. Maybe in-wall. Aesthetics for my eyes when it comes to my ears takes second place, so....

If you're doing a 5.1.x atmos setup then the surrounds are to the side, not the rear, the rears would be in addition to the sides for a 7.1.x setup.

 

[Beowulf]

Thanks guys for all the feedback! This most likely is not going to work out for me with my particular room/setup. I may still pre-wire the ceiling just in case something peaks my interest in the future as it is really not that expensive and while it's being built it's fairly easy to do, but most likely will not be implementing any 5-7 channel setup anytime soon as it's not a dedicated room and I just don't want speakers spread out all over the floor or dropped down from the ceiling. I don't really have the wall space either so about the only space I had was the ceiling and that's not going to work either ... c'est la vie

Thank you though I appreciate your time and efforts!

 

[yepimonfire]

From the specs it had THX Ultra 2 certification and post processing

• Dolby digital EX and DTS ES matrix decoding

• DTS ES 6.1 discrete decoding

• Dolby pro logic II and DTS Neo:6

• DTS 96/24

At the time it was pretty cutting edge though this was before HDMI became popular. I used a Pioneer Elite Universal Disc Player that had DVD/DVD-A/SACD processing. I had 5 discreet RCA cables coming from my Pioneer Player into my Pre/pro if I can remember right it had something to do with keeping the signal PCM and bypassing any additional digital mixing.



Nope ... it will closely resemble the picture . Lots of glass, very open, beamed ceilings, etc. Though the back wall and about 1/4th of the side walls (where the audio equipment will be located) will be acoustically treated with paneling, curtains and a dedicated circuit exclusively for my audio equipment. It's all a little give and take.

So guys can you clarify a couple things for me please?

1. Do you need floor standing speakers to implement Dolby Atmos or can this be all done with in-ceiling? If it can be done, can you name some brands I should look into?

2. What is the minimum speakers I should consider pre-wring my house for if I might want to try Atmos in the future? One person above mentioned 13, but there's no way I want to install 13 in-ceiling speakers into all that wood unless they were super tiny .

There’s no way to place two speakers along the sides for surround on speaker stands? I can’t stress enough, you really want to avoid in ceiling speakers.

As far as how many speakers, that depends on budget, and seating arrangement. You could go as far as 7 speakers on the floor, and 4 speakers overhead, or you could do a simple 5.1 setup with 2 heights. If you had access to stupid levels of cash, you could also use a trinnov altitude and have a maximum of 32 channels.



If you’re an imaging and detail freak, I’m sure you will appreciate what Dolby surround can do for music. I can tell you I have attended more live orchestras than I can count, even with the best imaging, stereo doesn’t do it justice.

When a symphony is recorded using something like a standard stereo pair, deck tree, or mid-side stereo setup, the direct and reflected sound arrives at the mic at different times and at different phase angles relative to the direct sound. Dolby surround extracts extra channels by splitting the sound into multiple frequency bands, and then comparing the differences in the time domain and level domain.

For example, if a car were recorded using a single pair of stereo mics passing on the left side from the front to back, the level would be louder in the left channel, as the car approaches and passes behind, the timing difference and phase of the sound will continuously change, Dolby surround extracts this in routes it to the surrounds with extreme precision.

Height channels are derived from diffuse elements in the sound, if a sound from above hit a pair of stereo mics, it would be out of phase and non directional in comparison to the direct sound, and this gets picked up and extracted by dsu.

Prologic II sucks in comparison, especially with music. You might not like it, but I’d definitely give it a try.


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