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Omni mic 2, I believe was the measurement device and the chamber of silence thing ... get real. Who has access to that in the DIY community? Dennis Murphy designs speakers without the benefit of an anechoic chamber also. I'm not trying to convince you these speakers sounded good. I'm relaying the news that his speakers were well regarded by a community of folks passionate about building original and established designs. Or, is that not important?How well do they measure in the chamber of silence?
Or, that is not important?![]()
I'm talking about speaker cables. Sorry for getting the name wrong. That's my mistake. Thanks for the heads up.BTW MIT's aren't cables. Anything with a box of components in the middle is something else entirely.
I saw him helping out another DIY'er with an original design. It was kind of a big deal as the guy needing help traveled from NH to RI with big speakers to have this guy measure and recommend reversing the tweeter polarity to even out the frequency response. It worked. I was impressed. I had never seen anything measured before.And how well does the guy measure? Be sure it's DBT, there are some thing neither of you wants to see.
Yep, you don't have to. You may believe anything you want.I would not dismiss out of hand the experiences of those who say cable break-in can have an audible effect.
Cables have capacitance, inductance and resistance. All are measurable, and electrically form what is referred to as an LCR network.
It would be much better to know than to believe.Thus over time we form Belief Systems that control our behaviour day-to-day.
Don't think you know much about that, especially when it comes to audio perceptions and beliefs.Finally there is consumer Psychology .
After all, he is in business to make money.A good reseller should allow you to audition any interconnect ....
A cable exhibits capacitance. All capacitors change value over time when not charged by a current, all capacitors require forming with a current to fix the capacitive value. The "empirical evidence" is so vast that to be unaware of the evidence simply means that the literature has not been examined.Yep, you don't have to. You may believe anything you want.
Do you have any empirical evidence that any of those values change over time in a cable??? Better be credible, not speculation about leakage.
It would be much better to know than to believe.
Don't think you know much about that, especially when it comes to audio perceptions and beliefs.
After all, he is in business to make money.
But, as soon as the evidence presents itself for this cable nonsense, may reconsider.
In the meantime there are more important things to consider in audio that this silliness.
Perhaps stick with EE as this "belief system" is complete gibberish. You may be well versed in the EE field and thus throwing in some "self-help" grade references from Oprah Show psychology will only discredit your EE knowledge.The second factor is another brain-related condition. Whether we admit it or not, our minds work inside what is referred to as a "Belief System". It is formed within our subconscious as a sort of "short cut" that reduces the processing needed to carry on day-to-day. As anyone who has struggled to study a difficult subject in school, or to solve a puzzle, or take an exam, thinking is "hard" and takes energy. The brain is always looking for ways to reduce the energy it consumes by difficult thought.
Thus over time we form Belief Systems that control our behaviour day-to-day. The Belief System allows us to make decisions without reverting to difficult, energy consuming thought, by simply applying a sort of rule to the problem, the rule based on previous experience.
Thus if your Belief System is based on experience whereby you have not noticed much (or any) difference in cables, and thus holds that cables "do not matter" then you are unlikely to hear a difference during or after a cable break-in period, regardless of the actual effect.
Similarly, if your Belief System involves an experience in the past whereby you did hear a difference while auditioning a change involving only a cable, you are more likely to accept the idea that cable break-in might affect performance.
This is the first time I have ever heard anyone mention forming in crossover caps or wire, in my 40+ years dealing with audio, electronics and in discussing these topics with EEs. In power supply caps, sure- they're exposed to much higher voltages and sometimes, the current is close to the upper limit of their operating range but when we're dealing with speaker wire, the voltage and current limits are rarely discussed except WRT gauge and length. Even then, it's not really presented as voltage & current limits, more about resistance and voltage drop (which are related).I would not dismiss out of hand the experiences of those who say cable break-in can have an audible effect.
Cables have capacitance, inductance and resistance. All are measurable, and electrically form what is referred to as an LCR network.
The most common form of LCR network is a passive loudspeaker crossover.
Taking capacitance alone, it is known to vary based on age. If you research the current literature from capacitor manufacturers, you will learn that they leave the factory at a different value than they are expected to perform at in-circuit by the end user. The effect is partly age alone, and partly the "forming" of a capacitor once installed in a circuit excited by AC signals (audio waveforms).
For the age aspect, the caps leave the factory at a value that is expected to equal the marked specification after shipping and distribution and final delivery to commercial end users; most capacitor manufacturers assume this will take three months. So, the capacitor should meet spec after three months.
That is partly why most capacitors are rated at x value +/- 20%. Although the manufacturer expects them to meet the rated value at a much tighter spec at the three month period, if measured earlier or if measured after a prolonged period in the distributor's inventory, they will meet the +/- 20% spec but may not be equal to the value measured at three months.
Once formed, the value generally remains consistent over time at the operating temperature typical of the component they are used in.
Both effects could possibly be encountered by a cable "break-in" procedure.
The effect is assumed to be subtle and may not be evident in all systems, depending on the resolution capability of the system. The type of dielectric used and the geometry of the cable in question, as both greatly affect capacitance, may result in more or less change in the values and perhaps the sonics.
Reverse engineering a cable to perform a certain way might be done by simply making several cables in slightly different ways, measuring the characteristics and using them before re-measuring. If they fall within the acceptable range for their purposes, they continue to manufacture the cables in that way and come up with a marketing campaign. Whether this includes dipping the cables in BS is up to the manufacturer.Imagine the difficulty in designing a cable so that after break in occurs, the cable sounds the way you intended from the start. The reverse engineering must be incredible. So yeah, that's why they are so expensive. Less expensive cables don't need break in because they don't need to be reverse engineered. It all makes perfect sense.
I really cant ever fully enjoy my audio system because even though all components are surely broken in by now, I always have this nagging feeling that I didn't break them in exactly right. Like should I break them in at night or during the day? Oh well.
Whats even more frustrating is that I can't really hear anything above 12K hz so I know my ears are not the ones to decide. But I know I can trust the cable companies to help me make the right decision. I remember during the 80's when my hearing was perfect and I was first introduced to Randall Research cables. "Isn't the difference amazing?" the audio expert asked me. I couldnt hear any difference at all. But of course I answered "yes, wow, it's amazing!" cuz I didnt want to sound uneducated, unrefined, tone deaf, and foolish.![]()
And, you didn't spend near enough $$$ on your cables. You disgusting lowlife. lolImagine the difficulty in designing a cable so that after break in occurs, the cable sounds the way you intended from the start. The reverse engineering must be incredible. So yeah, that's why they are so expensive. Less expensive cables don't need break in because they don't need to be reverse engineered. It all makes perfect sense.
I really can't ever fully enjoy my audio system because even though all components are surely broken in by now, I always have this nagging feeling that I didn't break them in exactly right. Like should I break them in at night or during the day? Oh well.
Whats even more frustrating is that I can't really hear anything above 12 Khz so I know my ears are not the ones to decide. But I know I can trust the cable companies to help me make the right decision. I remember during the 80's when my hearing was perfect and I was first introduced to Randall Research cables. "Isn't the difference amazing?" the audio expert asked me. I couldn't hear any difference at all. But of course I answered "yes, wow, it's amazing!" cuz I didn't want to sound uneducated, unrefined, tone deaf, and foolish.![]()
You used logic when I was trying to make an intentionally silly post. Touche'Reverse engineering a cable to perform a certain way might be done by simply making several cables in slightly different ways, measuring the characteristics and using them before re-measuring. If they fall within the acceptable range for their purposes, they continue to manufacture the cables in that way and come up with a marketing campaign. Whether this includes dipping the cables in BS is up to the manufacturer.
Your last sentence is something that is relied on in sales of audio equipment and has been for a long time. The more it costs, the more people want to see/hear/feel/notice a difference after the sale. Pre-sale, these feelings are somewhat different, but it's more similar to wanting to be seen as 'worthy'. Post sale, it's a matter of wanting to believe that the money was well-spent.
jinjuku:As a moderator here my job is manifold:
1. Promote reasonably courteous discourse. If you are way out there with unsupportable claims sorry. You're going to get some flack.
You still have yet to show capacitance or inductance or resistance change in cables caused by any time on the usage clock. We are waiting for this credible evidence.A cable exhibits capacitance. ....
speedskaterA good reality check would be:
Does a new 10 foot cable sound significantly different than a new 11 foot cable of the same model number? I don't think so.
That was a 10% change in R,L,C values. It's extremely unlikely that burn-in will cause even a 1% change in R,L,C values.
No chance at all of hearing a difference.
Perhaps no one claimed an LCR change in cables caused by burn in?speedskater
That's probably the best de-bunk example I have seen. I wonder why we haven't seen this idea before?
....
So tell us about your cables/interconnects under evaluation...A cable exhibits capacitance. All capacitors change value over time when not charged by a current, all capacitors require forming with a current to fix the capacitive value. The "empirical evidence" is so vast that to be unaware of the evidence simply means that the literature has not been examined.
It's in every EE textbook, countless papers, and academic studies. Capacitor manufacturers, from the mundane to the boutique, do not disagree amongst themselves regarding the empirical evidence. The most adamant proponents amongst EE's whom hold that the circuit itself and alone determines performance do not disagree on this point.
I said nothing about leakage. Nor did I advocate for or against whether cable break-in is real or imagined. I merely pointed out some possible mechanisms that may, or may not, create an audible effect in a given listener's perception. Do not construct straw man arguments.
I did not at any time suggest there is "proof" that these factors will certainly be evident in an interconnect, I only said that it's possible. I assume from your post you adhere to the idea that it is impossible. Your input is welcome and certainly you are free to advocate any position you wish, as am I.
As for "it would be much better to know than to believe", it is not borne out by human behaviour. People claim to "know" that UFOs exist, but in reality they simply "believe" they exist. When we believe something we act as if it were true; in fact we cannot act as if we believe it is not true. If you "believe" your lover is cheating on you you will act as if he or she was cheating on you regardless of the actual facts. That is just the way we are built, and it can't be over-ridden unless something happens to positively change our belief.
I have no idea what you mean regarding your comment about Consumer Psychology, but the field is well established, in particular by retailers and advertisers, and supported by academia, and was a mature science by the 1960's. Nothing learned in the meantime changes those old conclusions.
There may well be "more important" things to consider in audio. However, 'if cable break-in is real or imagined' is the actual topic of the thread, thus it's reasonable to expect comment on it.
That may be due to the fact that nobody worried about how cables sounded until some knob decided that un-measurable differences would make huge audible improvements in the sound by using verbage that seemed plausible to people who didn't understand it, but wanted others to think they did. Read the white papers from cable manufacturers and the IEEE- that's where you'll find facts, not in product marketing department's drivel.You used logic when I was trying to make an intentionally silly post. Touche'![]()