Need help on choosing mid ranged amp

[Camicasee]

Hi,
i am new in this question but run throught a lot of forums and got totally messed up and would be really happy if You would help me on this.

I currently have used pair of Triangle Celius ESW speakers and 300w Klipsch R-10SW subwoofer.
I am using it in pretty small room, siting possition is ~ 2,7-3 m. from speaker. I have used them with used home cinema Pioneer VSX - 821 amplifier which just burned out. Now i am planning to buy stereo amplifier and need help for that.

Specifications of speakers:Triangle Celius ESW


Bi-wirable
Bass driver Triangle T16 DR110C (x2)
Mid driver Triangle T16 PP122o
Tweeter Triangle TZ202
Sensitivity (dB/W/m) = 92
Freq Response (+- 3Db) = 45Hz-20kHz
Continuous Power = 120 W - at 8 Ohms
Peak Power = 240 W - at 4 Ohms
Nominal Impedance = 8 Ohms
Minimal Impedance = 5 Ohms
Low Frequency Roll Off/Crossover = 400 Hz
High Frequency Roll Off/Crossover = 4 Hz
Dimensions = 44.5 x 8.7 x 11.7 (H x W x D)

QUESTIONS (sry if they are stupid)

First of all i want to ask dumbest question of all:
1. What is mine loudspeaker impedance 8 ohms or 4 ohms - which amplifier I should look in to at first place working with 8 Ohms or 4 Ohms.
As far as understand my loadspeakers are rated 8 Ohms, but what is confusing they are Bi-wirable (two ,,+" and two ,,-" connection on each of loadspeaker) and i dont use this I just connect them with metal swich connecting both minuses and pluses (making actual one ,,+" and one ,,-" on each speaker).

Doesn't that mean that it becomes 4 Ohms (8*8ohms/8*8ohms) ( as on same loudspeaker 2 speakers 8 ohms high speakers + other part of pair 8 Ohms are connected together)? I mean does 8 ohms are rated for whole speaker no mater u are bi wiring or not or not?


2. I have calculated I need somewhere 105-120W RMS power amplifier for channel (in calculators distance from source 3 m, desirable level ~100 dbSPL, speaker sesivity 92 db, amplifier headroom 3 db.
All mid ranged recommend stereos I can find under (500-600 eur.) are with low power output 60-80 W per channel for example Cambridge Audio CXA60. All i could find in this area to fit power needs are: Yamaha A-S701 or Yamaha R-N402D.
2.1 Is this the correct amp. Choice, maybe you can recommend some?
2.2 Do I really need such powerfull amp to power those speakers?

3. I read everywhere that if i use only 2.1 system stereo amplifier is better choice than cinema amplifiers is it really true?


Sry a lot for long post and thanks a lot in advance for you answers

 

[killdozzer]

Hi,

i am new in this question but run throught a lot of forums and got totally messed up and would be really happy if You would help me on this.


I currently have used pair of Triangle Celius ESW speakers and 300w Klipsch R-10SW subwoofer.

I am using it in pretty small room, siting possition is ~ 2,7-3 m. from speaker. I have used them with used home cinema Pioneer VSX - 821 amplifier which just burned out. Now i am planning to buy stereo amplifier and need help for that.


Specifications of speakers:Triangle Celius ESW



Bi-wirable

Bass driver Triangle T16 DR110C (x2)

Mid driver Triangle T16 PP122o

Tweeter Triangle TZ202

Sensitivity (dB/W/m) = 92

Freq Response (+- 3Db) = 45Hz-20kHz

Continuous Power = 120 W - at 8 Ohms

Peak Power = 240 W - at 4 Ohms

Nominal Impedance = 8 Ohms

Minimal Impedance = 5 Ohms

Low Frequency Roll Off/Crossover = 400 Hz

High Frequency Roll Off/Crossover = 4 Hz

Dimensions = 44.5 x 8.7 x 11.7 (H x W x D)

QUESTIONS (sry if they are stupid)


First of all i want to ask dumbest question of all:

1. What is mine loudspeaker impedance 8 ohms or 4 ohms - which amplifier I should look in to at first place working with 8 Ohms or 4 Ohms.

As far as understand my loadspeakers are rated 8 Ohms, but what is confusing they are Bi-wirable (two ,,+" and two ,,-" connection on each of loadspeaker) and i dont use this I just connect them with metal swich connecting both minuses and pluses (making actual one ,,+" and one ,,-" on each speaker).


Doesn't that mean that it becomes 4 Ohms (8*8ohms/8*8ohms) ( as on same loudspeaker 2 speakers 8 ohms high speakers + other part of pair 8 Ohms are connected together)? I mean does 8 ohms are rated for whole speaker no mater u are bi wiring or not or not?

Don't bother with bi-wiring. Your speakers are nominal 8Ohm. It's not a fixed number. 4 is minimal.

2. I have calculated I need somewhere 105-120W RMS power amplifier for channel (in calculators distance from source 3 m, desirable level ~100 dbSPL, speaker sesivity 92 db, amplifier headroom 3 db.

100dB is ear damaging level of noise. You should be careful. Also, you can achieve 100dB with those speakers with 2x75 Wpch (Watts per channel). They are sensitive enough.

All mid ranged recommend stereos I can find under (500-600 eur.) are with low power output 60-80 W per channel for example Cambridge Audio CXA60. All i could find in this area to fit power needs are: Yamaha A-S701 or Yamaha R-N402D.

2.1 Is this the correct amp. Choice, maybe you can recommend some?

2.2 Do I really need such powerfull amp to power those speakers?


3. I read everywhere that if i use only 2.1 system stereo amplifier is better choice than cinema amplifiers is it really true?

Yamaha is a great amp. There's no real need to go over 100Wpch with the amp. One more thing, there are no shortcomings in owning a multichannel AVR even for 2.1 channel music listening. On the contrary, you will have more options for tuning your sound.


You gave a lot of info and that is good, but we need a bit more. What is your budget? Where do you live? What are you going to use this system for - music, movies...? What kind of music/movies? What are your listening room measurements?

Sry a lot for long post and thanks a lot in advance for you answers

Don't worry. Welcome to the forum!

 

[killdozzer]

Yamaha AS-701 has a sub out and R-N402D does not. But R-N402D is a network receiver. This is why we need to know about what are you planing to use this for.

 

[Camicasee]

Yamaha AS-701 has a sub out and R-N402D does not. But R-N402D is a network receiver. This is why we need to know about what are you planing to use this for.

Thanks a lot for quick and warm answer, I really appreciate this.


Regarding additional info:


1. Most important, my budged would be under ~500Eur-600Eur. (know its teardrop for audiophiles J ), but I really don't want to spend a lot at this stage. To be honest I would not search for new amp if the old one still worked J But as I need to buy new I am looking in a way to buy best price/quality ratio product, but this seems to be harder than I thought initially


2. I know Cellios is more for jazz not rock thing, but I actually use them a lot for home cinema (TV -> Amp via optics), like to watch sci-fiction and other movies needing base - that’s why I bought Klipsh sub. Additionally.
In overall when listening to music they are really great (when connected to PC via HDMI) for my ear. It would be great if i could listen to music over wi-fi


3. My room is small 3.5x3.5=~12.25m2, and got high ceiling 2.7 m. So ~33 m3




Hope this will help

 

[killdozzer]

Thanks a lot for quick and warm answer, I really appreciate this.


Regarding additional info:


1. Most important, my budged would be under ~500Eur-600Eur. (know its teardrop for audiophiles J ), but I really don't want to spend a lot at this stage. To be honest I would not search for new amp if the old one still worked J But as I need to buy new I am looking in a way to buy best price/quality ratio product, but this seems to be harder than I thought initially


2. I know Cellios is more for jazz not rock thing, but I actually use them a lot for home cinema (TV -> Amp via optics), like to watch sci-fiction and other movies needing base - that’s why I bought Klipsh sub. Additionally.
In overall when listening to music they are really great (when connected to PC via HDMI) for my ear. It would be great if i could listen to music over wi-fi


3. My room is small 3.5x3.5=~12.25m2, and got high ceiling 2.7 m. So ~33 m3




Hope this will help

According to this, you should look for an AVR. You'll have much more possibilities. You'll be able to upgrade easily. Where do you live? We have to know what's available to you and at what price?

 

[Camicasee]

Where do you live? We have to know what's available to you and at what price?

Hi,
if you mean the country where I live it would be Lithuania, let's say if we would speak about Yamaha AS-701 it would get around ~615 Eur. here. But as long it is EU, the priceses should be more less the same

 

[killdozzer]

For that room you'll probably never use everything the amp has to give. You were asking about 105 - 120 RMS Wpch, but you could get away with far less.

I checked your sub. It doesn't have a lot of options for adjusting. Gain, low pass and phase. You have Line in and LFE connections.

OK, I'm just asking you to see how you feel about, let's say, something like this?

Enough power (more than needed really), a lot of features, two sub out's (you can even add one more sub in the future), you can go surround if you decide, connect your tv and then some, smart phone, USB...

Denon is reliable and if you consider these 4: performance, longevity, features and price, it's always among the top few.

This model should even cost less than your budget.

Don't rush and speak up if that's not what you had in mind.

 

[killdozzer]

I checked the model of your speakers. They were a recommended product of the year in 2001 by well respected Stereophile. That means something.

You should continue connecting your speakers like you did so far. One set of cables and those metal jumpers as shown in your picture. This won't change even when you buy a new amp.

 

[Camicasee]

Hi,

yes, it is quite a good option - what actualy concerns me:
1. Are you sure the output power is enought as at 8 Ohms 70 watts per channel (8 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, THD 0.08%, 2ch driven)?
2. What would be really nice to have is the option to stream audio via Wi-Fi, but my gues it would come only from higher range of amplifiers >500 Eur. ?
3. Last thing would be in general from your experience - does there actually is noticible difference in sound quality if you compare ~300 Eur. AVR to a bit more pricer ~500 Eur. AVR? Or after all you pay for additional functions but not for improoved sound quality?

 

[killdozzer]

Hi,


yes, it is quite a good option - what actualy concerns me:

1. Are you sure the output power is enought as at 8 Ohms 70 watts per channel (8 ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, THD 0.08%, 2ch driven)?

2. What would be really nice to have is the option to stream audio via Wi-Fi, but my gues it would come only from higher range of amplifiers >500 Eur. ?

3. Last thing would be in general from your experience - does there actually is noticible difference in sound quality if you compare ~300 Eur. AVR to a bit more pricer ~500 Eur. AVR? Or after all you pay for additional functions but not for improoved sound quality?

I'm glad you like the idea.

Let me answer your first question like this, short version; I have no doubt in my mind.

But you can reach for a stronger model if that will make you satisfied.

Long version; my speakers are significantly less efficient than yours at 85dB, I use an AVR with 75Wpch, I start earthquakes in my building with this system. My listening room is a bit larger than yours. My guess is you won't even use the whole 70.

I can check for Wi-Fi, but that's also something you can do yourself. If you're OK with Denon, just look for a model with Wi-Fi in your price range. Denon is good across the range. For example, the next model in line - AVR-X1400H has Wi-Fi and also Dolby Atmos. Slightly more powerful at 80Wpch and fits your budget from what I found.

And third, sound quality, as far as amplification goes will not change. It is, however, possible that more expensive models offer more tuning features. So, you might be able to adjust the sound better. For example, the first model I mentioned, AVR-X540BT, doesn't have Dolby Atmos, the second one does and this is something that can help you set your system properly.


One more thing, two and a half months from now you'll have all sorts of Christmas discounts. If you have something to use for that time, you might even get a better deal. Just a thought.

 

[ski2xblack]

- does there actually is noticible difference in sound quality if you compare ~300 Eur. AVR to a bit more pricer ~500 Eur. AVR? Or after all you pay for additional functions but not for improoved sound quality?

Ideally, there would be no difference in sound quality, by adhering to a few basic conditions. In real life, and particularly with budget gear, it's easy to exceed those conditions. Most often this is due to clipping, or exceeding the amp's clean power limits. How amps behave when clipped, how they recover from such conditions, whether or not some heavy handed protection circuitry is involved, all that can drastically alter how one amp can sound relative to another.

So within your budget, you want as many clean (i.e. before clipping) watts on tap as possible, into the specific load your speakers present.

Your speakers (very cool looking design!) appear to be a three-way with dual woofs, so dollars to donuts they're closer to a 4 ohm load than 8 ohm. To err on the side of caution, you should probably limit your amp or AVR choices to items rated into 4 ohm loads. (I'm fairly certain that both the Yamaha stereo amp and Denon AVR mentioned upthread qualify, and would meet the power needs of probably 95% of folks out there.)

 

[agarwalro]

I'm going to come in late and throw a wrench into this. Sorry to OP considering you've already been turned around in circles before coming here.

Based on the tests in this review, the speaker needs a robust amp.
http://audio.com.pl/testy/stereo/zespoly-glosnikowe/291-triangle-celius-esw
Specifically, [translated from Polish to English]

the manufacturer declares a nominal impedance of 8 Ohms, and we say it is 4 ohms. And in this case, as with Java and Chorus, the manufacturer also gives a minimum impedance value, and according to the catalog these are 4 ohms, and we verify that the impedance module characteristics drop below 3 ohms, between 200 and 500Hz. This is illustrated in Figure 1.

You can try to get away with a lower powered amp. Thanks to the high efficiency, you'll be fine with a low powered amp at lower volume levels. As soon as you crank it up, distortion will rise and your speaker drivers, especially the tweeter, will be at risk of damage.

You need an amp stable putting 150-200W (20Hz-20kHz) 2ch driven into 4 Ohms with 0.1% distortion or less. Based on this, I'd recommend getting a dedicated amp to drive the speakers.

With your budget, I suggest you look for an AV receiver with pre-outs at least for main speakers. The Marantz slim line comes to mind. Combine this with a robust amp to drive the front speakers and you'll be set.

 

[killdozzer]

@agarwalro what do you think about Marantz SR5011?


Having sufficient power is always a better choice.

You should definitely take advice from @agarwalro and @ski2xblack as they know much more about these things.

Going by speakers specs provided by agarwalro, you could use more power. I was also going by your room being 11.5 by 11.5 feet and simply didn't think you'll need it.

600€ makes for 720$ in today's currency exchange. I didn't find an AVR with pre outs and a dedicated amp of 150Wpch into 4Ohms for 720$ in Lithuania. I don't know what agarwalro had in mind.

But I did see that a Lithuania based dealer for Marantz, Acappella, offers a discount on Marantz SR5011. It is going for 720€ (which stretches your budget somewhat). It has all the features and conveniences we were talking about and many more and is much more powerful (Wi-Fi, Dolby Atmos and DTS:X, Audyssey MultEQ XT...).

 

[agarwalro]

@agarwalro what do you think about Marantz SR5011?

But I did see that a Lithuania based dealer for Marantz, Acappella, offers a discount on Marantz SR5011. It is going for 720€ (which stretches your budget somewhat). It has all the features and conveniences we were talking about and many more and is much more powerful (Wi-Fi, Dolby Atmos and DTS:X, Audyssey MultEQ XT...).

The SR5011 is an excellent suggestion with great work done to track it down in Lithuania, if adding a dedicated amp was not imminent.

600€ makes for 720$ in today's currency exchange. I didn't find an AVR with pre outs and a dedicated amp of 150Wpch into 4Ohms for 720$ in Lithuania. I don't know what agarwalro had in mind.

I don't have anything specific in mind. My hope is to split the budget €200 receiver and €400 for the amp. We need a better understanding of the product availability in Lithuania.

 

[ski2xblack]

Audioholics tested the Denon equivalent to the Marantz SR5011, and while the continuous, full bandwidth power is not stated for 4 ohms, they measured 255w@4ohms(1%thd) in their dynamic power test. That should be sufficient for all but the most ridiculous, marching-band-in-your-living-room levels, which is bad for your hearing anyway. It seems a viable option for the OP. He might consider an inexpensive cooling fan too, those Marantz can get quite warm, particularly hooked up to those speakers.

 

[Camicasee]

Thank You all guys for such great advices and big work done - even looking in to Lithuanian pricing
So if not buying separate amp best choice would be Marantz SR5011.
I looked at Marantz SR5011 and u can get it somewhere 720 -750 Eur. in Lithuania... ahh. its over my budged but maybe i need to save for them if it is really the best choice.

Is the fan really must have thing - its starts to sound difficult (separate amps, additional fan) and a bit frightening Ahhh why getting good sound is so expensive

 

[ski2xblack]

Re: the fan, it's not absolutely required, but it is advisable simply because the Marantz will run hot when driving low impedance speakers. Heat will reduce the service life of the unit. The heat factor is is also part of the rationale for using out-board amplification.

As far as expense, you don't have to spend much at all. I use a 3v-12v wall wart supply wired up to a computer fan, plugged into the aux ac outlet on the back of the AVR. It's completely inaudible at the lower voltage settings, and still moves plenty of air to facilitate cooling. Total cost was about $12. I see it as cheap insurance.

I wouldn't consider that particular Marantz model your "best" option. Best is such a subjective term. Practcially speaking, it would provide fairly decent power and a host of useful features, from bass management to networking. It's a very reasonable option that checks a lot of boxes, at or at least near your budget.

Having a closer look at your speakers (hat tip Agwalaro), they could use an amp capable of serious power and current delivery. Over here, the best such values tend to be in the pro realm, with the Crown xls1502 being a perfect example. On our side of the pond, those amps are about $350 or so. Depending on how much you would have to spend on an AVR with pre-outs to feed the amp, you may even beat the cost of the SR5011. Such a setup would have considerably more clean headroom than the SR5011, with no concerns with how difficult a load your speakers present or heat.

Heat is probably what killed your Pioneer.

 

[Camicasee]

Hi,
yes, probably you are right. I am starting to check on used amp. market as good stuff seems to be out of my budget so I will probably check for some powerful used amp in short term as dont want to sit without music at all
For example I just found used but quite new model AVR-X2200W for about ~220Eur.

 

[agarwalro]

For example I just found used but quite new model AVR-X2200W for about ~220Eur.

There's no reason to avoid used. Let us know if you see a used Denon X4000. If you don't need the latest and greatest on video side or Atmos in the foreseeable future, the central audio processing capabilities have not changed since then. Audyssey XT32 processing in the X4000 is a big jump up from any Denon or Marantz with only Audyssey XT.

 

[lovinthehd]

There's no reason to avoid used. Let us know if you see a used Denon X4000. If you don't need the latest and greatest on video side or Atmos in the foreseeable future, the central audio processing capabilities have not changed since then. Audyssey XT32 processing in the X4000 is a big jump up from any Denon or Marantz with only Audyssey XT.

If you did want to add an external amp later on the X2200 doesn't have pre-outs (but the X4000 does).