Loudspeaker Crossover Assistance

[AJ Anderson]

Yes, I know there are free Loudspeaker Crossover Calculators on line but I am still a little confuse when using them (the audio frequency separation). So, if someone here can fill in the values for me here – shown below to make life easier. Thanks A Million.

First Order Butterworth - 2 Way
Loudspeaker Woofer: 10Hz to 200Hz - 6db/Octave (at 8 Ohms)
Coil/Inductor Value Should Be What: ???


First Order Butterworth - 2 Way
Loudspeaker Mid-Range: 200Hz to 4000Hz - 6db/Octave (at 8 Ohms)
Coil/Inductor Value Should Be What (if necessary): ???
Capacitor Value Should Be What: ???


and alternative……


First Order Butterworth- 2 Way
Loudspeaker Woofer: 10Hz to 200Hz - 6db/Octave (at 4 Ohms)
Coil/Inductor Value Should Be What: ???


First Order Butterworth - 2 Way
Loudspeaker Mid-Range: 200Hz to 4000Hz - 6db/Octave (at 4 Ohms)
Coil/Inductor Value Should Be What (if necessary): ???
Capacitor Value Should Be What: ???

 

[AJ Anderson]

I just discovered this. I see that DiyAudio & Video has some helpful info (simplifies things so-to-speak): https://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Tables/ButterworthCrossover/1stOrder/

 

[TheWarrior]

Yes, I know there are free Loudspeaker Crossover Calculators on line but I am still a little confuse when using them (the audio frequency separation). So, if someone here can fill in the values for me here – shown below to make life easier. Thanks A Million.

First Order Butterworth - 2 Way
Loudspeaker Woofer: 10Hz to 200Hz - 6db/Octave (at 8 Ohms)
Coil/Inductor Value Should Be What: ???


First Order Butterworth - 2 Way
Loudspeaker Mid-Range: 200Hz to 4000Hz - 6db/Octave (at 8 Ohms)
Coil/Inductor Value Should Be What (if necessary): ???
Capacitor Value Should Be What: ???


and alternative……


First Order Butterworth- 2 Way
Loudspeaker Woofer: 10Hz to 200Hz - 6db/Octave (at 4 Ohms)
Coil/Inductor Value Should Be What: ???


First Order Butterworth - 2 Way
Loudspeaker Mid-Range: 200Hz to 4000Hz - 6db/Octave (at 4 Ohms)
Coil/Inductor Value Should Be What (if necessary): ???
Capacitor Value Should Be What: ???

Check out Vandersteen in all their underwhelming glory of 1st order networks. Most drivers can't work together because of the 90deg phase change of 1st order networks. They build custom drivers to obtain their lauded 'phase coherent' performance - by selling over priced speakers with dirt cheap crossovers.

But you aren't specifying drivers to be used, so you can't arbitrarily select crossover components to achieve a crossover frequency. Further, your proposed frequency ranges for a two way make no sense. And there would only be a single crossover, woofer to tweeter. Keep studying!

 

[AJ Anderson]

Check out Vandersteen in all their underwhelming glory of 1st order networks. Most drivers can't work together because of the 90deg phase change of 1st order networks. They build custom drivers to obtain their lauded 'phase coherent' performance - by selling over priced speakers with dirt cheap crossovers.

But you aren't specifying drivers to be used, so you can't arbitrarily select crossover components to achieve a crossover frequency. Further, your proposed frequency ranges for a two way make no sense. And there would only be a single crossover, woofer to tweeter. Keep studying!

I will be using a Piezo Tweeter (from Parts-Express: 292-446) for the highs for the third loudspeaker which I understand no capacitor is needed which already has a Frequency response: 1,800 Hz-30,000 Hz - SPL: 92 dB 1W/1m. Once the entire loudspeaker system is assembled and built ....I will be using a 10 Band Stereo Audio Frequency Equalizer (similar to: AudioSource EQ 200) to control attenuation.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Check out Vandersteen in all their underwhelming glory of 1st order networks. Most drivers can't work together because of the 90deg phase change of 1st order networks. They build custom drivers to obtain their lauded 'phase coherent' performance - by selling over priced speakers with dirt cheap crossovers.

But you aren't specifying drivers to be used, so you can't arbitrarily select crossover components to achieve a crossover frequency. Further, your proposed frequency ranges for a two way make no sense. And there would only be a single crossover, woofer to tweeter. Keep studying!

Let's not lump Vandersteen into the "dirt cheap crossover" category. True first order acoustic slope crossovers, such as used by Vandersteen, are usually very complex--more so than a lot of 4th order. it takes a lot of shaping to achieve 1st order acoustic slopes over a sufficiently wide range. Simple first order electrical circuits (a cap and a coil) almost never produce 1st order acoustic slopes. The usual result is closer to 2nd order due to the natural roll-off of the drivers.

 

[TheWarrior]

I will be using a Piezo Tweeter (from Parts-Express: 292-446) for the highs for the third loudspeaker which I understand no capacitor is needed which already has a Frequency response: 1,800 Hz-30,000 Hz - SPL: 92 dB 1W/1m. Once the entire loudspeaker system is assembled and built ....I will be using a 10 Band Stereo Audio Frequency Equalizer (similar to: AudioSource EQ 200) to control attenuation.

Third loudspeaker? You said this is a 2 way. I can't tell what you are trying to build.

Keep studying and working on your design. This is quite complex stuff to just pick up, so don't quit. But there's more work to be done to develop your design!

 

[TheWarrior]

Let's not lump Vandersteen into the "dirt cheap crossover" category. True first order acoustic slope crossovers, such as used by Vandersteen, are usually very complex--more so than a lot of 4th order. it takes a lot of shaping to achieve 1st order acoustic slopes over a sufficiently wide range. Simple first order electrical circuits (a cap and a coil) almost never produce 1st order acoustic slopes. The usual result is closer to 2nd order due to the natural roll-off of the drivers.

The effort put in to Vandersteen designs is commendable, if you're ok buying speakers that have to have specially designed rooms for auditioning. I always appreciate your comments Dennis. But your work makes Vandersteen look like a snake oil salesman. The Model 7 with it's dixie cups that lift the cables off the ground to not 'dirty' the signal going to it's dedicated amps, for example.

 

[Swerd]

Is this your first effort at DIY speaker building? Your confusion about choosing crossover designs suggests that. I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm, but your posts display a misunderstanding of how to design a speaker. Don't worry, no one is born knowing how to do this, but you do seem to have a lot to learn.

It looks to me like your initial design is based on what looks like the thumbnail descriptions of driver performance in the Parts Express catalog. Designing this way will, almost certainly, produce poor results.

Read the attached pdf named Crossovers 101. It describes how you go about designing a crossover based on measurements of drivers already mounted in a suitable cabinet. Read that, and then ask questions. Note that it only discusses crossover design, and not woofer selection or cabinet design for proper bass performance.

It is also available here: http://www.salksound.com/blogtopic.php?id=5. A recent revamp of that web site resulted in chopping off the end of the article. The attached pdf has the full version.

 

[ATLAudio]

@TheWarrior @Dennis Murphy

"The effort put in to Vandersteen designs is commendable,"

so wait, The Vandy designs aren't dirt cheap anymore?

"if you're ok buying speakers that have to have specially designed rooms for auditioning."

This is an assumption and it's not true. If you're referring to the 7s at HiFi Buys, why wouldn't a dealer put their flagship speakers in their best room? None of their speakers require specially designed rooms.

"I always appreciate your comments Dennis. But your work makes Vandersteen look like a snake oil salesman."

Dennis' speakers are an incredible value. I'm not sure how that makes Vandersteen's speakers any less appreciable.

"The Model 7 with it's dixie cups that lift the cables off the ground to not 'dirty' the signal going to it's dedicated amps, for example."

This is an exaggeration. Those cups and cables are not a requirement for those speakers, but an attempt at the retailer to sell everything they offer; ie exotic cables, and cable elevators.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

The effort put in to Vandersteen designs is commendable, if you're ok buying speakers that have to have specially designed rooms for auditioning. I always appreciate your comments Dennis. But your work makes Vandersteen look like a snake oil salesman. The Model 7 with it's dixie cups that lift the cables off the ground to not 'dirty' the signal going to it's dedicated amps, for example.

Vandersteen no doubt has a more viable business model than I do. I've heard the Model 7 in your standard audio show hotel room, and it sounded splendid once they bowed to my request to play a decent CD rather than the poorly engineered LP's they were spinning.

 

[ATLAudio]

Vandersteen no doubt has a more viable business model than I do. I've heard the Model 7 in your standard audio show hotel room, and it sounded splendid once they bowed to my request to play a decent CD rather than the poorly engineered LP's they were spinning.

Absolutely, Richard Vandersteen is a vinyl geek for sure. lol

I run into the same thing at the local boutique which sells Vandys. While I do have a turntable, my approach to it is to enjoy it for the novelty of it all. However, when auditioning serious speakers like the Model 7s, gimmie some digital.

 

[TheWarrior]

Ok, so this thread got derailed because I stated my opinion about Vandersteen. It seemed @Dennis Murphy and I were having a respectable discussion on our differing opinion of the brand.

Vandersteen no doubt has a more viable business model than I do. I've heard the Model 7 in your standard audio show hotel room, and it sounded splendid once they bowed to my request to play a decent CD rather than the poorly engineered LP's they were spinning.

I too thought the Model 7 sounded great. Far better than any of their other products that I heard, that had me feeling 'underwhelmed'. But when you factor the cost, plus the recommended mono block amps you're talking six-figures. That's why I criticize the Model 7. I've heard a lot of speakers that sounded great, but I don't get excited about any company claiming a pair of speakers is worth that much, especially after being underwhelmed by several of their four-figure offerings.



@ATLAudio You hotlink insults when I state my opinion on Audyssey, and now you take my words out of context to belittle me. It's an internet forum. People state their opinions. And they also reach out for help. Like I was doing with the OP when I made this terribly offensive analogy to Vandersteen. So check your specs, cause the room that had the 7's was tailored to Vandersteen's design. I was told that is the only way they let dealers have a pair to show. So yeah, I'm insulted by a company that goes to that much effort to preserve the sound (by covering the back wall in diffusors) and puts the over insulated cables on melted plastic cups.



I hope @AJ Anderson has not run off. @Swerd is able to offer some great resources to help along the path to loudspeaker design. It's just a TON of information to absorb, but one helluva hobby! Like I said, keep at it!

 

[ATLAudio]

@TheWarrior

"Ok, so this thread got derailed because I stated my opinion about Vandersteen. It seemed @Dennis Murphy and I were having a respectable discussion on our differing opinion of the brand."

LMAO Oh sorry to interrupt your “respectful conversation” wow… You made definitive claims (which by definition aren’t opinions) that I felt should be challenged.

"… you're talking six-figures. That's why I criticize the Model 7. I've heard a lot of speakers that sounded great, but I don't get excited about any company claiming a pair of speakers is worth that much, especially after being underwhelmed by several of their four-figure offerings."

Expensive? Yes. But I was addressing your other criticisms, such as “dirt cheap components," and special demands."

“You hotlink insults when I state my opinion on Audyssey”

LMAO… Only the most fragile ego would consider anything in those links to be so scornful, as to be considered insulting. I was simply being critical of your logic.

“and now you take my words out of context to belittle me.”

Such as?

“It's an internet forum. People state their opinions. And they also reach out for help.”

And said opinions aren’t shielded from criticism.

“Like I was doing with the OP when I made this terribly offensive analogy to Vandersteen.”

Your emotional appeals aside, I just simply thought you were wrong. Not offensive, only inaccurate.

“So check your specs, because the room that had the 7's was tailored to Vandersteen's design. I was told that is the only way they let dealers have a pair to show. So yeah, I'm insulted by a company that goes to that much effort to preserve the sound (by covering the back wall in diffusors) and puts the over insulated cables on melted plastic cups.”

Clearly we have different ideas of what’s insulting. Again, HiFi Buys incorporates these premium items into their premium show room, which also has their premium speakers. If HIfI Buys didn't offer Series 7 as their premium model, something else would be in there with the same diffusion panel, cables, et al. There are Vandy dealers all across the country with 7s that doesn’t have that same set up. Vandy doesn't have diffusion panels at trade shows, and HiFi Buys didn’t have them a year ago at their old store. If someone DID tell you this, I’d take it with a grain of salt.

 

[AJ Anderson]

Ok, so this thread got derailed because I stated my opinion about Vandersteen. It seemed @Dennis Murphy and I were having a respectable discussion on our differing opinion of the brand.



I too thought the Model 7 sounded great. Far better than any of their other products that I heard, that had me feeling 'underwhelmed'. But when you factor the cost, plus the recommended mono block amps you're talking six-figures. That's why I criticize the Model 7. I've heard a lot of speakers that sounded great, but I don't get excited about any company claiming a pair of speakers is worth that much, especially after being underwhelmed by several of their four-figure offerings.



@ATLAudio You hotlink insults when I state my opinion on Audyssey, and now you take my words out of context to belittle me. It's an internet forum. People state their opinions. And they also reach out for help. Like I was doing with the OP when I made this terribly offensive analogy to Vandersteen. So check your specs, cause the room that had the 7's was tailored to Vandersteen's design. I was told that is the only way they let dealers have a pair to show. So yeah, I'm insulted by a company that goes to that much effort to preserve the sound (by covering the back wall in diffusors) and puts the over insulated cables on melted plastic cups.



I hope @AJ Anderson has not run off. @Swerd is able to offer some great resources to help along the path to loudspeaker design. It's just a TON of information to absorb, but one helluva hobby! Like I said, keep at it!

Nope still here ....please read my new post below.

 

[AJ Anderson]

I got Parts-Express Technical Support Team to help me sort through this. They recommended the following:

Note: I am new to this; originally, I said 2 Way - but I should have said 3 Way as noted to me by Parts-Express and others. I was mainly concerned about the Woofer & Midrange Crossover - since I would be using a Piezo Tweeter which mainly takes care of itself (No Capacitors or Inductors Needed). With a Frequency response range: 1,800Hz thru 30,000Hz. Which is my main reason for calling it a 2 Way originally.

First Order Butterworth - 3 Way

Midrange (at 8 Ohms/200Hz to 4000Hz - 6db/Octave): 113.4uF Film Capacitor with an Induction Coil: .28mH
Midrange (at 4 Ohms/200Hz to 4000Hz - 6db/Octave): 226.8uF Film Capacitor with an Induction Coil: .14mH

First Order Butterworth - 3 Way

Woofer (at 8 Ohms/10Hz to 200Hz - 6db/Octave): 5.3 mH Induction Coil
Woofer (at 4 Ohms/10Hz to 200Hz - 6db/Octave): 2.7 mH Induction Coil

And I already suggested to Parts-Express regarding the tweeter; the following:

I will be using a Piezo Tweeter (from Parts-Express: 292-446) for the highs for the third loudspeaker which I understand no capacitor is needed which already has a Frequency response: 1,800 Hz-30,000 Hz - SPL: 92 dB 1W/1m. Once the entire loudspeaker system is assembled and built .... I will be using a 10 Band Stereo Audio Frequency Equalizer (similar to: Audio Source EQ 200) to control attenuation when needed.

 

[everettT]

Since there have no specific drivers and ts parameters listed , this thread is useless

 

[everettT]

Yawns, *been here before*

 

[AJ Anderson]

I appreciate everyone’s help and not to say that “I know everything” because I don’t. Which is my reason why I am here.

I have built a large stereo audio loudspeaker system in the past (many years ago – before the internet) for my mobile disc jockey business that filled ballrooms/reception halls/convention halls/etc., easily the size of a basketball court and received raved reviews from the audience. I even got offers for others to build them a speaker system like the ones I was using.

But I was able to cure any flaws easily (if any existed) with a ten band per channel electronic stereo equalizer. Which is also what I will be using with new loudspeaker design.

So, I will take all of this forum recommended suggestions (including recommendations from other audio forums) including Parts-Express techs and see what happens.

 

[TheWarrior]

I appreciate everyone’s help and not to say that “I know everything” because I don’t. Which is my reason why I am here.

I have built a large stereo audio loudspeaker system in the past (many years ago – before the internet) for my mobile disc jockey business that filled ballrooms/reception halls/convention halls/etc., easily the size of a basketball court and received raved reviews from the audience. I even got offers for others to build them a speaker system like the ones I was using.

But I was able to cure any flaws easily (if any existed) with a ten band per channel electronic stereo equalizer. Which is also what I will be using with new loudspeaker design.

So, I will take all of this forum recommended suggestions (including recommendations from other audio forums) including Parts-Express techs and see what happens.

In the age of mobile computers and plug n play measurement equipment, that style of design is simply outdated. Not wrong, just that technology has allowed for better ways to predict frequency response and model speaker systems. This strategy might be more work than learning how to use the software.

But without providing any meaningful data on your project, we can't help ya!

 

[ATLAudio]

@AJ Anderson

Have you considered just building a DIY speaker kit to get your feet wet again?