Looking for integrated for B&W CM 6 towers

[Nico]

I currently have a pair of B&W CM 6 towers from the early 2000s which I'd like to use in a music-only system and am looking for an integrated amplifier (new or used) that would mate well with them.
Budget is ~$1500, so I'm considering new and used.

The used market integrated I'm most interested in at the moment is the Krell KAV-400xi. I recall admiring it at the time I bought my speakers, but I can't remember how well it mated to B&W CMs.
Curious which other options I should consider.

For new, I've been recommended the Rotel RA-1572 since Rotel is known for good value.

Source units currently include a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon turntable and Pioneer Elite DV-79avi DVD/SACD/CD player.

Thanks in advance.

 

[TheWarrior]

For that kind of money, you are far better off getting a receiver. There is nothing 'pure' about an integrated amp, they are truly over priced boxes in 2017. With a receiver you'll have the expandability to add other channels in the future, as well as more connectivity options and bass management for subwoofers.

 

[PENG]

B&W recommends 30-120W into 8 ohms unclipped. I agreed with TheWarrior and I would say any mid range D&M, Yamaha AVR will do a good job for you.

The AVR-X4400H is available now, so for $799 you can get a new X4300H and there is money left for adding an external power amp if you want one even if you don't need one.

https://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVRX4300H-technology-featuring-Bluetooth/dp/B01KZRPNIQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1504016284&sr=8-1&keywords=denon+avr-x4400h

If for some reason you must have an integrated amp, instead of getting a used Krell why not go for a new one made by NAD, Yamaha, Anthem, Parasound, Rotel etc., for the same or less money.

 

[TheWarrior]

The AVR-X4400H is available now, so for $799 you can get a new X4300H and there is money left for adding an external power amp if you want one even if you don't need one.

https://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVRX4300H-technology-featuring-Bluetooth/dp/B01KZRPNIQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1504016284&sr=8-1&keywords=denon+avr-x4400h

Yeah, that's a pretty good deal!

 

[Nico]

I'm actually downsizing from 5.1 surround. I haven't used the surround options in longer than I can remember, so I have no interest in a new receiver or multichannel.
Part of my reasoning for wanting an integrated is simplicity. I've had different receivers, including Yamaha and Elite models, and I tend to get tired of the endless options they provide.

Beyond upgrades to the current source units, the only other thing I'd be adding is a subwoofer. For that I am considering the REL T/7i.

Here's the data sheet for the speakers:

They're much more similar to the current CM 8 or CM 9.

 

[TheWarrior]

I'm actually downsizing from 5.1 surround. I haven't used the surround options in longer than I can remember, so I have no interest in a new receiver or multichannel.
Part of my reasoning for wanting an integrated is simplicity. I've had different receivers, including Yamaha and Elite models, and I tend to get tired of the endless options they provide.

Beyond upgrades to the current source units, the only other thing I'd be adding is a subwoofer. For that I am considering the REL T/7i.

Here's the data sheet for the speakers:
View attachment 22067
They're much more similar to the current CM 8 or CM 9.

Do you still have a receiver? Because I completely understand the overwhelming connectivity and setup they have as being a hassle, but if you still have an AVR, I wouldn't consider selling it for what you'd pay for an integrated to even be a fair trade.

But if you're already well on the path to integrated, then please look for models with Bass Management (meaning they will have a dedicated LFE channel) and as many HDMI connections as possible.

REL makes quality products. My only thought on that is to give the Internet Direct options a chance as they are as equally capable and could save you some money. Rythmik, HSU, SVS and all the other usual suspects are always highly recommended!

 

[everettT]

I agree with the others, adding an integrated isn't simplifying. Bass management, DSD over hdmi, etc is much easier via an avr.

 

[Pogre]

Do you still have a receiver? Because I completely understand the overwhelming connectivity and setup they have as being a hassle, but if you still have an AVR, I wouldn't consider selling it for what you'd pay for an integrated to even be a fair trade.

But if you're already well on the path to integrated, then please look for models with Bass Management (meaning they will have a dedicated LFE channel) and as many HDMI connections as possible.

REL makes quality products. My only thought on that is to give the Internet Direct options a chance as they are as equally capable and could save you some money. Rythmik, HSU, SVS and all the other usual suspects are always highly recommended!

SVS offers a 45 day in home trial. If you don't like what you hear, send it back and they'll pay shipping. There's almost always an opportunity in upgrading to a better sub. Unless you already have some really good subs, it's much more worthy way to spend money on an upgrade than buying an integrated, imo.

One of the main factors for me in getting an avr for 2.1 listening is bass management. They make it very easy to set a crossover point and blend everything together. What do you have right now? I like Denon/Marantz myself for Audyssey's room correction.

 

[TheWarrior]

SVS offers a 45 day in home trial. If you don't like what you hear, send it back and they'll pay shipping. There's almost always an opportunity in upgrading to a better sub. Unless you already have some really good subs, it's much more worthy way to spend money on an upgrade than buying an integrated, imo.

One of the main factors for me in getting an avr for 2.1 listening is bass management. They make it very easy to set a crossover point and blend everything together. What do you have right now? I like Denon/Marantz myself for Audyssey's room correction.

LOL! Then what don't you like about my first post!?

 

[Pogre]

LOL! Then what don't you like about my first post!?

I was like, "wtf are you talking about?" then I looked at your post again. That was supposed to be a checkmark! I'm sorry man! lol. I fixed it. I agreed with you. Fat fingers and little icons.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm with the others on using a receiver or even your current receiver first, what is it? I wouldn't buy a Rel sub at all myself, (unless perhaps majorly discounted) vs the internet direct subs but perhaps you're not in the US either....

 

[Nico]

My receiver is a Pioneer Elite VSX-92TXH which was purchased 10 years ago when I was far more interested in home theatre and surround sound. These days I rarely watch TV or movies, and if I do I tend to use the TV's speakers because it's just easier - I honestly don't care about the sound quality, so long as it's clear.

Where I do care about sound quality is for music, which is why I am interested in an integrated amp (or possibly preamp/amp combo). I've never been particularly impressed with the Elite receiver for music, but it's great for HT use.
I previously owned a B&W ASW700 subwoofer which was fine for HT, but underwhelming for music. My search for a more musical subwoofer led to me REL which I can easily demo locally. I also like REL's design when it comes to connection - sending a full-range signal to the sub and using its internal crossover.

My ultimate goal is to have a music-centric system. I have no interest in items that have more inputs than I'll ever use. I don't stream music, I don't care about HDMI. At most I may add a DAC at some point, but that would basically go in between the disc player and the amp.

TL;DR: I don't want an AVR, please stop suggesting them

 

[PENG]

My receiver is a Pioneer Elite VSX-92TXH which was purchased 10 years ago when I was far more interested in home theatre and surround sound. These days I rarely watch TV or movies, and if I do I tend to use the TV's speakers because it's just easier - I honestly don't care about the sound quality, so long as it's clear.

Where I do care about sound quality is for music, which is why I am interested in an integrated amp (or possibly preamp/amp combo). I've never been particularly impressed with the Elite receiver for music, but it's great for HT use.
I previously owned a B&W ASW700 subwoofer which was fine for HT, but underwhelming for music. My search for a more musical subwoofer led to me REL which I can easily demo locally. I also like REL's design when it comes to connection - sending a full-range signal to the sub and using its internal crossover.

My ultimate goal is to have a music-centric system. I have no interest in items that have more inputs than I'll ever use. I don't stream music, I don't care about HDMI. At most I may add a DAC at some point, but that would basically go in between the disc player and the amp.

TL;DR: I don't want an AVR, please stop suggesting them

For a $1,500 budget, the Anthem 225 is hard to beat:

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/tested-anthem-integrated-225-integrated-amplifier/

The Rotel is good too but if you believe in better DACs, it is better to save the money and get an external one. The build in DAC function of mid range integrated amps are typically limited, not for most people but for audiophiles.

 

[Swerd]

While I agree with the others about the value and utility of an AVR, you clearly don't want that.

• You want a new or used integrated stereo amp for about $1500, and you're looking into a Krell KAV-400xi, a Rotel-1572, or others.
• Your present audio sources are a turntable and a DVD/SACD/CD player.
• Your speakers are B&W CM6 towers.
• You are looking into a different sub woofer.

I looked for impedance specs and suggested power for the CM6 tower speakers, but came up with nothing. Do you know the impedance of your speakers?

Many B&W speakers are said by the maker to have 8 ohm impedance, but when measured by a 3rd party reviewer, the frequency vs. impedance curves often showed impedance dropping to 4 ohms or lower in the bass range. What was the power rating of your old AVR that you want to replace? This becomes important when you read below what Stereophile had to say about that Krell KAV-400xi.

A Stereophile review of the Krell integrated amp sounded some serious warnings. The reviewer encountered major overheating while measuring power output, and warned about using this amp with speakers that drop below 4 ohms impedance. See https://www.stereophile.com/content/krell-kav-400xi-integrated-amplifier-measurements

Summing up the Krell KAV-400xi's measured performance is difficult, as some of its odd behavior will not be an issue when it comes to playing back music at normal listening levels. It is also possible that our sample was defective, though the fact that both channels behaved similarly is evidence for that not being the case. But I would avoid pairing the amplifier with loudspeakers that drop below 4 ohms.​

This may sound mild to you and me. But the reviewer, John Atkinson, is known both for his reserved language and his unwillingness to directly criticize a product under review. This might as well say – STAY AWAY – DANGER!!!

The other integrated amp you mentioned, the Rotel RA-1572, seems OK. At a retail price of $1700 it doesn't seem to be a bargain.

• 120 wpc at 8 ohms
• power not stated at 4 ohms
• has a built-in phono preamp (MM)
• can handle optical, coaxial, and USB digital sources
• has a sub woofer output jack, but apparently no bass management is provided

I suggest another option, the Outlaw RR2160, at nearly half the price of the Rotel, $799 (Internet Direct).

• power 110 wpc at 8 ohms, 165 wpc at 4 ohms
• built-in phono preamps for MM or MC phonograph pick ups
• bass management for one or two subwoofers
• allows adding an external amp, if wanted
• can handle optical, coaxial, or USB digital sources

 

[Nico]

For a $1,500 budget, the Anthem 225 is hard to beat:

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/tested-anthem-integrated-225-integrated-amplifier/

The Rotel is good too but if you believe in better DACs, it is better to save the money and get an external one. The build in DAC function of mid range integrated amps are typically limited, not for most people but for audiophiles.

Thank you. This is the type of information I am looking for. I was starting to think I had made a mistake by bothering to ask.

 

[Nico]

I looked for impedance specs and suggested power for the CM6 tower speakers, but came up with nothing. Do you know the impedance of your speakers?

Many B&W speakers are said by the maker to have 8 ohm impedance, but when measured by a 3rd party reviewer, the frequency vs. impedance curves often showed impedance dropping to 4 ohms or lower in the bass range. What was the power rating of your old AVR that you want to replace? This becomes important when you read below what Stereophile had to say about that Krell KAV-400xi.

A Stereophile review of the Krell integrated amp sounded some serious warnings. The reviewer encountered major overheating while measuring power output, and warned about using this amp with speakers that drop below 4 ohms impedance. See https://www.stereophile.com/content/krell-kav-400xi-integrated-amplifier-measurements

Summing up the Krell KAV-400xi's measured performance is difficult, as some of its odd behavior will not be an issue when it comes to playing back music at normal listening levels. It is also possible that our sample was defective, though the fact that both channels behaved similarly is evidence for that not being the case. But I would avoid pairing the amplifier with loudspeakers that drop below 4 ohms.​

This may sound mild to you and me. But the reviewer, John Atkinson, is known both for his reserved language and his unwillingness to directly criticize a product under review. This might as well say – STAY AWAY – DANGER!!!

Based on the spec sheet, the impedance is 8 ohms with a minimum of 3 ohms.
I had overlooked the measurement portion of the Stereophile review; it sounds like the Krell might be the wrong option.

I remember seeing Outlaw's name quite a bit several years ago, but I still don't know much about them. I'll do some research into them.

 

[Swerd]

Based on the spec sheet, the impedance is 8 ohms with a minimum of 3 ohms.
I had overlooked the measurement portion of the Stereophile review; it sounds like the Krell might be the wrong option.

I'm guessing here, but I wouldn't be surprised if the 3 ohm impedance minimum occurred in the range of 100-200 Hz. That would definitely make your speakers sound weak in the bass range, unless you have a more powerful amp driving them.

Since writing my previous post, I did notice the link you provided for your Pioneer AVR. It is rated at 130 wpc while driving 2 channels. Unless the Pioneer was over-rated (not unknown in this business), both the Rotel and Outlaw might not provide any more power than you have now.

If so, that might be a good reason to look into that Anthem 225 that PENG mentioned.

I remember seeing Outlaw's name quite a bit several years ago, but I still don't know much about them. I'll do some research into them.

The present Outlaw stereo receiver is a revised version of a previous model. From what I read, it seems to be similar to the older version with the addition of a DAC and modern digital connection features.

The Outlaw RR2150 was reviewed, and well liked, by Audioholics four years ago http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/outlaw-audio-rr2150-receiver-review

The new Outlaw RR2160 was previewed by AH this year http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/outlaw-audio-rr2160

 

[Nico]

Since writing my previous post, I did notice the link you provided for your Pioneer AVR. It is rated at 130 wpc while driving 2 channels. Unless the Pioneer was over-rated (not unknown in this business), both the Rotel and Outlaw might not provide any more power than you have now.

I'm actually running the receiver in a mode that allows you to bi-amp speakers by using the front LR channels and the rear surround LR channels (it still has surround LR available). It's rated at 130 watts per channel, but that is not all channels driven. If I recall correctly, all channels driven is rough 90-95 watts per channel.
In other words, the speakers are bi-amped getting roughly 95 watts to the tweeter/midrange and 95 watts to the woofers. This does not mean I need 200 watts a channel in a 2 channel amp. I have heard 100x2 amps that sound more powerful than other 150x2 amps. It's more about matching the speakers to an amp that can drive them well, which is why I'm hoping someone who is familiar with these speakers will chime in.

 

[KenM10759]

LOL...I think you got some reading to do about bi-amping and bi-wiring.

BTW, NAD C388. Add the BlueOS module later. Incredible amp, very tolerant of low impedance loads.

 

[lovinthehd]

Might need to understand gain structure, too. Difference between a 95w/ch amp and a 200w/ch amp is a bit over 3dB, not a lot.