Wanting to build a pair of top quality bookshelf speakers - Help!

[TLS Guy]

You need to make these speakers happen, even if no one will ever use them. They should have substantiated existence, so they can be more than a platonic ideal. I say, make them, measure them, and if they pan out to be good performers, then share the plans on various DIY groups with the measurements there as proof of concept.

I might get them built. I can't build them any time soon. Unfortunately I have a hip giving me lots of trouble. I'm scheduled for a hip replacement November 2.

I recently had to change the hydraulic pump on one of my tractors and that was difficult.

When I have recovered I will consider it.

 

[TLS Guy]

TSL guy, sounds like you are truly an expert on this subject, and I am clearly not. I apologize for that. I also apologize for not building the correct top bookshelf unit for this use. Actually the placement of my existing top bookshelf unit shown was an afterthought. Originally we built the lower unit hence the location of the in wall speakers. Later we added the upper unit and the only thing I could do is leave the in-wall speakers and build around them. I am the first to admit it is indeed a terrible location for them which is the reason for my wanting to abandon them and move on. I suppose from your post my option of building stands outside of the bookshelf is not an option either.

Although my wife has been know to loose here senses once in a great while, she actually is very level headed.

Since my wall unit is so wide I would be afraid that building small towers would leave them greatly separated and might not be ideal. I just don't know the answers to these questions.

Just trying to work with what I have to get a great sounding system.

I'm totally unclear on where you intend to place those stands. Please clarify.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

If OP is willing to consider towers, this is the DIY design I'd build:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-diy-mtm-towers-designed-by-dennis-murphy-and-paul-kittinger.68531/
Unfortunately Photobucket removed most of original images, but below pdf has the important images preserved:
https://meniscusaudio.com/product/er18mtm-dome-pair/
https://meniscusaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/ER18-MTM-Dome-Ribbon-Write-up.pdf

lots of folks build theirs: here's one:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?40185-ER18-MTM-build

 

[shadyJ]

I might get them built. I can't build them any time soon. Unfortunately I have a hip giving me lots of trouble. I'm scheduled for a hip replacement November 2.

I recently had to change the hydraulic pump on one of my tractors and that was difficult.

When I have recovered I will consider it.

Hip replacement, ouch! Last I heard, there was a minimally invasive procedure that makes recovery a lot easier, so hopefully you are having that done.

Anyway, make your recovery quick, because I want to see what your design can do!

 

[Winkleswizard]

Btw, had not seen the pic until just now... You do have a challenge. I live with a comparable one - a beautiful solid wood wall unit that looks like it was designed for a rear projection tv. That said, what you have is even worse as it has closed shelves (read resonant cavities).

If you have to use the same room for your more critical listening, would pick speakers that you could put on stands when doing so and "store" them on the shelf when doing more casual listening.

While would optimize toward the stand mounting, if you want fewer issues on the shelf, would go for a small, sealed design.

Ww

 

[Steve1580]

Would suggest looking at a couple of sites: Speakerdesignworks.com and zaphaudio.com. If you do not know whether the speakers will land on shelf or stand, both these sites have designs with different crossover options for baffle step compensation.

Since you have a subwoofer, you will generally get better sound reproduction with a sealed box design. I have built several of the Zaph ZA5s and they sound great. I also have the Dayton Audio 621 and am struggling with their sound. I like Bagby's designs too, but have not had the need to try to build any of them...

Madisound has Zaph kits and some very nice high end ones too. Other than the ZA5s, would suggest looking into the Linkwitz LXmini too.

Ww

Thank you very much for pointing me in that direction. The statement on the performance of the ZA5 is pretty hard to ignore. I hope that with my (not planned correctly) wall unit that I will be able to come up with something that will greatly enhance my music listening enjoyment.
Thanks for your help, greatly appreciated.

 

[Steve1580]

Btw, had not seen the pic until just now... You do have a challenge. I live with a comparable one - a beautiful solid wood wall unit that looks like it was designed for a rear projection tv. That said, what you have is even worse as it has closed shelves (read resonant cavities).

If you have to use the same room for your more critical listening, would pick speakers that you could put on stands when doing so and "store" them on the shelf when doing more casual listening.

While would optimize toward the stand mounting, if you want fewer issues on the shelf, would go for a small, sealed design.

Ww

WOW, WOW, WOW, something that i would have never thought of. Great idea, for casual listening keep them on the shelf and when I want to really air them out, pull out my newly built stands and let them rip. Sounds like a great idea. Who would you suggest I talk to about components (Madisound)?

 

[Swerd]

If OP is willing to consider towers, this is the DIY design I'd build:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-diy-mtm-towers-designed-by-dennis-murphy-and-paul-kittinger.68531/
Unfortunately Photobucket removed most of original images, but below pdf has the important images preserved:
https://meniscusaudio.com/product/er18mtm-dome-pair/
https://meniscusaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/ER18-MTM-Dome-Ribbon-Write-up.pdf

lots of folks build theirs: here's one:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?40185-ER18-MTM-build

I have the full length write up for the ER18 MTM tower speakers, with crossover schematic diagrams and cabinet plans, that skyline used in that thread. I've attached the plans below, plus a parts list with more recent prices.

Meniscus Audio uses it for their kit, but deleted much of the original, rather long, document.

 

[Steve1580]

I have the full length write up for the ER18 MTM tower speakers, with crossover schematic diagrams and cabinet plans, that skyline used in that thread. I've attached the plans below, plus a parts list with more recent prices.

Meniscus Audio uses it for their kit, but deleted much of the original, rather long, document.

Thank you for the recommendation, I think with size (width) of my wall unit and having to place them at either side, towers wouldn't be the best fit for me. Thank you again for your help.

Steve

 

[Winkleswizard]

WOW, WOW, WOW, something that i would have never thought of. Great idea, for casual listening keep them on the shelf and when I want to really air them out, pull out my newly built stands and let them rip. Sounds like a great idea. Who would you suggest I talk to about components (Madisound)?

If you think you want to do the Zaph MT, yes Madisound has a great kit at around $250 for the pair. It includes built crossovers with quality components. See https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/zaph|audio-za5.2-tm-2-way-pair/

Ww

 

[Swerd]

@Steve1580 – I just got up to speed by actually reading this whole thread.

If I understand correctly, you have a room with about 20'×15' listening space. It has built-in bookshelves that have at least two shelves. The lower shelf is 16" deep × 16" high × 30" wide and the upper shelf is 16" deep × 30" high × 30" wide. I saw the attached picture of one of the shelves. What that photo doesn't show is how the shelves are placed in the room.

From that photo, I can see one of the shelves in which you might place a speaker, but I don't understand how you would use speakers mounted on stands. Where would the stands go? And why are floorstanding speakers not suitable? They have a similar footprint to speaker stands.

I agree with TLS Guy when he said "Putting speakers inside shelves can be problematic." It is important that the speakers be located so that the tweeter, or a point mid-way between the woofer and tweeter, is at a similar height to the listeners' faces (or ears) while they are seated. In bookshelves, it is also important that any speaker be placed such that its front panel (often called the 'front baffle' in speaker building) be at the front edge of the bookshelves, or even protruding a bit. Finally, if the speaker cabinet has a port tube, it would be better to locate the tube on the front baffle instead of at the rear of the cabinet. If a cabinet design shows a rear mounted tube, it can be relocated on front as long as the cabinet width and interior volume are unchanged. It may make the cabinet taller or deeper than in the original plans.

For any speaker with multiple drivers in one cabinet, it is important for acoustic reasons that the cabinet sit vertical and not sideways. Each driver should be arranged above or below the other drivers. Work with your wife on questions of cabinet finish, appearance, and general location, but do not compromise on the vertical alignment or the height above the floor of the speaker cabinets.

If you can fit a speaker cabinet that is 8" wide × 18.5" tall × 12" deep, you might consider building pair of the Zaph Audio ZA5.3 MTM speaker kits available through Madisound. Cabinet plans are included at that web site. MTM speakers, with two mid-woofers, will do better in a room of your size.

Somewhere in your posts, you mentioned using hardwood in your build. For speaker cabinets solid hardwood should be avoided. Instead, use MDF or good quality plywood such as Baltic birch. You can finish those cabinets with any veneer or paint you wish.

 

[Pogre]

TSL guy, sounds like you are truly an expert on this subject, and I am clearly not. I apologize for that. I also apologize for not building the correct top bookshelf unit for this use. Actually the placement of my existing top bookshelf unit shown was an afterthought. Originally we built the lower unit hence the location of the in wall speakers. Later we added the upper unit and the only thing I could do is leave the in-wall speakers and build around them. I am the first to admit it is indeed a terrible location for them which is the reason for my wanting to abandon them and move on. I suppose from your post my option of building stands outside of the bookshelf is not an option either.

Although my wife has been know to loose here senses once in a great while, she actually is very level headed.

Since my wall unit is so wide I would be afraid that building small towers would leave them greatly separated and might not be ideal. I just don't know the answers to these questions.

Just trying to work with what I have to get a great sounding system.

If you're willing to build stands, small towers will have about the same footprint as a bookshelf on a stand.

And yes, TLS is a speaker genius. He really knows what he's talking about, if a little rough with his bedside manner. If you can get your wife to loosen up a little you have a very rare opportunity in that he's willing to help you get them tuned properly. I wouldn't hesitate to take him up on it.

 

[Swerd]

And yes, TLS is a speaker genius. He really knows what he's talking about, if a little rough with his bedside manner. If you can get your wife to loosen up a little you have a very rare opportunity in that he's willing to help you get them tuned properly. I wouldn't hesitate to take him up on it.

This is a good option. Too bad TLS Guy is ailing, but there may be a way around that.

If you and he decide on a suitable design, you can build one cabinet, unfinished is fine, as long as the dimensions are correct. Ship it to him along with the drivers for one cabinet. With that "mule" cabinet and drivers, TLS Guy can make all the acoustic and electronic measurements that are needed to custom design the crossover. I think he might be more willing to go through the crossover design process without having to do the grunt work that cabinet building requires.

@TLS Guy – What do you think? Sorry to hear about your hip. I hope the surgery goes well in November.

 

[Steve1580]

@Steve1580 – I just got up to speed by actually reading this whole thread.

If I understand correctly, you have a room with about 20'×15' listening space. It has built-in bookshelves that have at least two shelves. The lower shelf is 16" deep × 16" high × 30" wide and the upper shelf is 16" deep × 30" high × 30" wide. I saw the attached picture of one of the shelves. What that photo doesn't show is how the shelves are placed in the room.

From that photo, I can see one of the shelves in which you might place a speaker, but I don't understand how you would use speakers mounted on stands. Where would the stands go? And why are floorstanding speakers not suitable? They have a similar footprint to speaker stands.

I agree with TLS Guy when he said "Putting speakers inside shelves can be problematic." It is important that the speakers be located so that the tweeter, or a point mid-way between the woofer and tweeter, is at a similar height to the listeners' faces (or ears) while they are seated. In bookshelves, it is also important that any speaker be placed such that its front panel (often called the 'front baffle' in speaker building) be at the front edge of the bookshelves, or even protruding a bit. Finally, if the speaker cabinet has a port tube, it would be better to locate the tube on the front baffle instead of at the rear of the cabinet. If a cabinet design shows a rear mounted tube, it can be relocated on front as long as the cabinet width and interior volume are unchanged. It may make the cabinet taller or deeper than in the original plans.

For any speaker with multiple drivers in one cabinet, it is important for acoustic reasons that the cabinet sit vertical and not sideways. Each driver should be arranged above or below the other drivers. Work with your wife on questions of cabinet finish, appearance, and general location, but do not compromise on the vertical alignment or the height above the floor of the speaker cabinets.

If you can fit a speaker cabinet that is 8" wide × 18.5" tall × 12" deep, you might consider building pair of the Zaph Audio ZA5.3 MTM speaker kits available through Madisound. Cabinet plans are included at that web site. MTM speakers, with two mid-woofers, will do better in a room of your size.

Somewhere in your posts, you mentioned using hardwood in your build. For speaker cabinets solid hardwood should be avoided. Instead, use MDF or good quality plywood such as Baltic birch. You can finish those cabinets with any veneer or paint you wish.

Thank you for your response. I have included a better picture of the wall unit. The unit itself is approximately 13 feet wide and goes from floor to almost ceiling height. Like many things in life I didn't account for future uses and certainly should have as I am learning. As you can hopefully tell I have a lot of time and expense in this unit, so removing is not really an option. The reason I am hesitant on Floor standing speakers is that they would be approximately 15 feet apart in a 20 wide room. On the right side of the wall unit is my HSU ULS15 Subwoofer, which would leave me about 18 inches to work with on that side. The left side is a little more spacious. Wouldn't that much separation be problematic?

My thought after a suggestion here would be keep the speakers on the bookshelf for casual listening but I could keep stands in a closet break them out with excess speaker wire and place them in front of the wall unit for the times when I really want to kick back and get into some quality music time. Not ideal, I agree, but again this is what I am working with.

If it would be a better option for towers (as opposed to bookshelves) on either side at that distance I could go that route as well.

Just trying to get the best sound as my situation allows.

On the ply versus hardwood, I imagine plywood is better because of expansion. Fortunately there is a place relatively near me that sells semi exotic plys (Sapele, Cherry, etc.) and since the quantities are so low on a build like this the extra cost would be nominal.

Thank you very much for your time and counsel.

Steve

 

[OscarJr]

Would you be prepared to ship them to me after you have built them? If you want high end speakers, then the designer really has to have the speakers to measure them, listen to them and optimize the crossover.

Even then, once they are installed in any room other than the one they were tuned in, the frequency response goes to hell, and top-end reflections/bass decay modes all shift around.

I just tuned the frequency response of my Legacy Studio HD's in a separate thread, and even though these are really good speakers that are supposed to be relatively flat as tuned by Legacy, the room interaction wreaks havoc on even the best of designs/implementations.

 

[Pogre]

Thank you for your response. I have included a better picture of the wall unit. The unit itself is approximately 13 feet wide and goes from floor to almost ceiling height. Like many things in life I didn't account for future uses and certainly should have as I am learning. As you can hopefully tell I have a lot of time and expense in this unit, so removing is not really an option. The reason I am hesitant on Floor standing speakers is that they would be approximately 15 feet apart in a 20 wide room. On the right side of the wall unit is my HSU ULS15 Subwoofer, which would leave me about 18 inches to work with on that side. The left side is a little more spacious. Wouldn't that much separation be problematic?

My thought after a suggestion here would be keep the speakers on the bookshelf for casual listening but I could keep stands in a closet break them out with excess speaker wire and place them in front of the wall unit for the times when I really want to kick back and get into some quality music time. Not ideal, I agree, but again this is what I am working with.

If it would be a better option for towers (as opposed to bookshelves) on either side at that distance I could go that route as well.

Just trying to get the best sound as my situation allows.

On the ply versus hardwood, I imagine plywood is better because of expansion. Fortunately there is a place relatively near me that sells semi exotic plys (Sapele, Cherry, etc.) and since the quantities are so low on a build like this the extra cost would be nominal.

Thank you very much for your time and counsel.

Steve

I have mine 11' apart and I sit 14' away from them. If I could, I'd spread them further apart and get a unilateral triangle between them and my seat. My left speaker is 18" from a side wall tho, so I don't have much more wiggle room. If you spend a little time with positioning and toe in, you should still be able to get good stereo imaging. Provided you have good speakers, that is.

 

[Winkleswizard]

If you're willing to build stands, small towers will have about the same footprint as a bookshelf on a stand.

And yes, TLS is a speaker genius. He really knows what he's talking about, if a little rough with his bedside manner. If you can get your wife to loosen up a little you have a very rare opportunity in that he's willing to help you get them tuned properly. I wouldn't hesitate to take him up on it.

Agree small towers would be generally better sound and comparable footprint to bookshelf with stands. If he can move the subwoofer to the left, maybe could put the towers in the corners and bring them out for critical listening. I will add that my wife would consider this too much stuff across one wall. Fortunately, I have another room that I get more say in its configuration .

For music listening, a dedicated midrange is better. If TLS guy has time, no doubt having an experienced custom designer would be a great benefit. Otherwise, something like the Holtz's Mini Statements might be his best bet. Link included here for reference:
http://speakerdesignworks.com/MiniStatements.html

The Zaph towers would be a good possibility too, but for an MTM might go with the Murphy ER18 design as it seems higher quality.

Ww

 

[Steve1580]

I have mine 11' apart and I sit 14' away from them. If I could, I'd spread them further apart and get a unilateral triangle between them and my seat. My left speaker is 18" from a side wall tho, so I don't have much more wiggle room. If you spend a little time with positioning and toe in, you should still be able to get good stereo imaging. Provided you have good speakers, that is.

Well then should I be looking to build a pair of tower speakers and ditch the shelf speakers? Sounds like that might be the case...

With that thought, would it be unwise to have a tower speaker directly next to my Subwoofer?

 

[Swerd]

I have included a better picture of the wall unit. The unit itself is approximately 13 feet wide and goes from floor to almost ceiling height. Like many things in life I didn't account for future uses and certainly should have as I am learning. As you can hopefully tell I have a lot of time and expense in this unit, so removing is not really an option. The reason I am hesitant on Floor standing speakers is that they would be approximately 15 feet apart in a 20 wide room. On the right side of the wall unit is my HSU ULS15 Subwoofer, which would leave me about 18 inches to work with on that side. The left side is a little more spacious. Wouldn't that much separation be problematic?

Your last photo made it all very clear. No that much separation would not, in my opinion, be a major problem. The 13' wide built-in unit doesn't rule out narrow (9 or 10" wide) floor standing or stand-mounted speakers in a 20' wide room. It depends on how far away the listeners sit, where further away would be better than closer. For example, I have 2 floor standing towers, each about 8" wide. They stand about 10' or 11' apart, just outside a somewhat similar wall cabinet unit (not built-in). The listening position is a sofa about 9' away. Instead of facing them directly ahead, I "toe" them in, angling them toward the center of the sofa. So, towers or stand-mounted speakers, that far apart could work.

My thought after a suggestion here would be keep the speakers on the bookshelf for casual listening but I could keep stands in a closet break them out with excess speaker wire and place them in front of the wall unit for the times when I really want to kick back and get into some quality music time. Not ideal, I agree, but again this is what I am working with.

If it would be a better option for towers (as opposed to bookshelves) on either side at that distance I could go that route as well.

From your photo, my 1st choice would be floor standing towers located just outside your shelves, or (2nd) vertically stand-mounted Mid woofer-Tweeter-Mid woofer (MTM) speakers in the same location, or (3rd) similar MTM speakers, standing vertically in the large bay in your built-in shelves. I wouldn't go for smaller speakers with one mid woofer and one tweeter (MT) in a room as large as yours.

I'd rather avoid moving speakers back and forth between two locations, but that's just my personal preference.

On the ply versus hardwood, I imagine plywood is better because of expansion. Fortunately there is a place relatively near me that sells semi exotic plys (Sapele, Cherry, etc.) and since the quantities are so low on a build like this the extra cost would be nominal.

Expansion isn't the only problem with a speaker cabinet, a 6-sided box. Hardwoods, good for musical instruments, are not good for loudspeaker cabinets because hardwoods have sound frequencies at which they naturally resonate. That can alter or color the sound. Avoid that with composite woods such as ply or MDF.

Your idea of hardwood veneered plywood could be very nice looking. Based on your work with those built-in cabinets, I guess you can easily do all the wood work. Just the same, I'll ask these questions:

1. Can you make miter cuts for all the cabinet panels so the ply edges don't show at the seams?
2. Do you have a router and a circle cutting jig of some kind? That's the best way to cut holes for flush-mounting the drivers.

 

[Swerd]

Well then should I be looking to build a pair of tower speakers and ditch the shelf speakers? Sounds like that might be the case...

With that thought, would it be unwise to have a tower speaker directly next to my Subwoofer?

No, not a problem, per se. You may find that moving the subwoofer to other locations in the room may actually work better for sound. Determine that by trial & error.