PSA S7201

[ATLAudio]

@shadyJ

I'll do an experiment, it's subjective, but you do raise a good point. I'll incorporate a 20 low shelf which will kill anything that is happening below that, and test the difference just using my ears with F* Irene. I might even do the same at 16, 12 and so on until I just don't hear/sense/ESP(or whatever lol) the sound is doing in a beneficial way.

Of course this begs the question, have you done anything like this?

Mark Seaton did and he claimed his test audience preferred the lower end extension. Of course he has the Earthworks 9000 (or whatever model) and his knowledge qualifies as you detailed. He also has subs to sale but I don't associate him with being the least bit dishonest.

 

[Steve81]

at what point does 7 Hz become discernible? TLS Guy would say it is not audible at all...So the question is, how do you know what you are hearing is 7 Hz?

As I said on the infrasonic extension thread, audibility is wholly irrelevant to the question of whether extension to the single digits in room is worthwhile. I'll go even further: the "audible experience" is almost entirely irrelevant to the difference between even 20Hz extension and 25Hz extension. When is the last time you heard a Cap owner talk about how well they could hear 20Hz content in a movie? Compare that with the last time you heard a Cap owner talk about the last time they could feel low end content.

 

[shadyJ]

@shadyJ

I'll do an experiment, it's subjective, but you do raise a good point. I'll incorporate a 20 low shelf which will kill anything that is happening below that, and test the difference just using my ears with F* Irene. I might even do the same at 16, 12 and so on until I just don't hear/sense/ESP(or whatever lol) the sound is doing in a beneficial way.

Of course this begs the question, have you done anything like this?

Mark Seaton did and he claimed his test audience preferred the lower end extension. Of course he has the Earthworks 9000 (or whatever model) and his knowledge qualifies as you detailed. He also has subs to sale but I don't associate him with being the least bit dishonest.

I have done tests like that for myself, for example, switching between operating modes on variable tuned subwoofers in mid scene on content that could illustrate the difference (War of the Worlds 'pods rising' scene will forever be the best example of this). It was not exactly a rigorous test, just something for my own curiosity. If you want to run your experiment better, have someone else apply the filters for you without telling you what filter is active. Have them record the results. Your own knowledge of the operation of the subs already contaminates the results.

Mark is a standup guy, however if he had told his test audience what filters are active during testing, then that basically invalidates the results of the hypothesis that extreme low frequencies make a significant difference, if that was what actually he was testing for. Do you have a link handy to where he outlines his test?

On a minor semantic note, 'begs the question' is a name for a logical fallacy that is not quite the correct phrase here. The phrase you want to use is 'raises the question.'

 

[lovinthehd]

Some of the descriptions of such infrasonics have been feelings of nausea (in a good way)...

 

[Steve81]

Some of the descriptions of such infrasonics have been feelings of nausea (in a good way)...

Fear and awe as well. Good reason to put an organ in a church

 

[shadyJ]

As I said on the infrasonic extension thread, audibility is wholly irrelevant to the question of whether extension to the single digits in room is worthwhile. I'll go even further: the "audible experience" is almost entirely irrelevant to the difference between even 20Hz extension and 25Hz extension. When is the last time you heard a Cap owner talk about how well they could hear 20Hz content in a movie? Compare that with the last time you heard a Cap owner talk about the last time they could feel low end content.

Somewhere below 20 Hz maybe, and that's a big maybe, but not at 20 Hz and above. Above 20 Hz, it can be heard, and it can be heard more easily than it can be felt, at least if we are talking about the tactile feeling of sound pressure waves¹. 20 Hz sounds different than 25 Hz, it is a different musical note; 20 Hz is an E and 25 Hz is a G.

Of course, feeling it can be pretty fun too.

1. Bolanowski Jr, Stanley J., George A. Gescheider, Ronald T. Verrillo, and Christin M. Checkosky. "Four channels mediate the mechanical aspects of touch." The Journal of the Acoustical society of America 84, no. 5 (1988): 1680-1694.

 

[Steve81]

Above 20 Hz, it can be heard, and it can be heard more easily than it can be felt, at least if we are talking about the tactile feeling of sound pressure waves¹.

But we're not just talking about the tactile feeling of sound pressure waves in a vacuum. That's where the argument falls apart.

20 Hz sounds different than 25 Hz, it is a different musical note; 20 Hz is an E and 25 Hz is a G.

Let's put it this way: playing CEA bursts of 20Hz and 25Hz doesn't reveal a world of difference. The human ear's sensitivity to pitch at those frequencies is for all intents and purposes non-existent. The reason it's less problematic to hear the difference in real world content centered at 20Hz or 25Hz is because of the accompanying harmonics.

 

[shadyJ]

But we're not just talking about the tactile feeling of sound pressure waves in a vacuum. That's where the argument falls apart.

Since there is no air at all in a vacuum in which to conduct sound pressure waves, there won't be any tactile feeling whatsoever! Good god man, what an absurd example!

Let's put it this way: playing CEA bursts of 20Hz and 25Hz doesn't reveal a world of difference. The human ear's sensitivity to pitch at those frequencies is for all intents and purposes non-existent. The reason it's less problematic to hear the difference in real world content centered at 20Hz or 25Hz is because of the accompanying harmonics.

CEA bursts won't sound hugely different at these frequencies, but they do sound different. Discernment of pitch takes more time for lower frequencies than it does for higher frequencies anyway. Continuous sine waves will sound different and clearly so. Anyone with a computer with REW connected to a subwoofer can demonstrate this for themselves at any time. Human pitch definition between 20 Hz and 25 Hz most certainly exists. It is not as strong as high frequencies, and it does vanish at lower frequencies, but you can see this for yourself by running some test tones.

 

[ATLAudio]

If a system can reproduce 5HZ, and there is source material introduced at 5HZ, then 5HZ will be produced.

Whether you actually hear it or feel nauseated, have neck hair stand on end, or your belly button tickle, etc, you will not receive this stimuli if your system can't produce it.

Your personal value on this is up to you. However, depending on the room, it's not that difficult/expensive, or it can be astronomically expensive and very difficult.

 

[Steve81]

Since there is no air at all in a vacuum in which to conduct sound pressure waves, there won't be any tactile feeling whatsoever! Good god man, what an absurd example!

No kidding!

CEA bursts won't sound hugely different at these frequencies, but they do sound different. Discernment of pitch takes more time for lower frequencies than it does for higher frequencies anyway. Continuous sine waves will sound different and clearly so. Anyone with a computer with REW connected to a subwoofer can demonstrate this for themselves at any time. Human pitch definition between 20 Hz and 25 Hz most certainly exists. It is not as strong as high frequencies, and it does vanish at lower frequencies, but you can see this for yourself by running some test tones.

Let's get realistic here: the fact that you even have to bring up continuous sine waves for X amount of time really kind of proves the point that human pitch definition that low is practically nil. You have to remember, not everyone listens to the weird ass stuff you call music . Even higher in frequency where our ears are much more sensitive, nobody is mistaking a 41Hz CEA burst or a 41Hz continuous sine wave for a bass guitar, nor are they mistaking a bass guitar for a tuba, even if they might share the same fundamental frequency for a given note.

All that said, for the frequencies in question (25Hz on down), I'm not sure the capacity to discern pitch really matters all that much in the first place. When my wife's cousin and his family came over a little while back, I gave him a demo with the Barrel Roll scene from Flight of the Phoenix. Curiously, nobody commented on low frequencies being so easy to hear in my system. Nobody asked "hey, was that 30Hz or 20Hz?" The only real question/comment was if I had bass shakers. Well that, and it scared the poop out of their 8 year old. That with a pretty modest (in the grand scheme of things) bass setup. I can only imagine some of the systems out there are akin to amusement park rides.

 

[shadyJ]

I get what you are saying, but I don't accept your argument that low stuff between 20 and 30 Hz is non-musical or that pitch definition in that range is practically non-existent. There is no research that suggests this, nor do I feel this is true from my own experience. I agree for most people it doesn't really make a difference, as the content of their music just doesn't reach that low. For most people's experiences, content under 30 Hz is mere effects noises. But there is musical content out there that goes well below 30 Hz, and my music world is richer for including those subterranean depths.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I get what you are saying, but I don't accept your argument that low stuff between 20 and 30 Hz is non-musical or that pitch definition in that range is practically non-existent. There is no research that suggests this, nor do I feel this is true from my own experience. I agree for most people it doesn't really make a difference, as the content of their music just doesn't reach that low. For most people's experiences, content under 30 Hz is mere effects noises. But there is musical content out there that goes well below 30 Hz, and my music world is richer for including those subterranean depths.

Fwiw I have to agree with you here. I have a nice tone generator on my phone and can AirPlay to my avr. It's super fast and easy to choose whatever tones you want and starting at say, 25hz and bumping the frequencies down one hz at a time until about 15hz where my low rent stuff is out of gas, every single frequency is clearly reproduced from the next. And also I can easily tell a difference in movies that have a shelf at 30, 25, 20 or none.

 

[Steve81]

I get what you are saying, but I don't accept your argument that low stuff between 20 and 30 Hz is non-musical or that pitch definition in that range is practically non-existent.

By themselves, they are what they are. If you want to consider it musical, no sweat off my back. Having listened to enough test tones, I can't say I'd consider short bursts or continuous sine waves to be much more than non-musical noise, even if there is a perceptible difference listening to continuous sine waves of 20Hz vs 25Hz vs 30Hz.

As part of full range content, musical or otherwise, obviously that's a very different story. IME of rapidly switching between full range speakers that could reproduce that kind of content and bass limited bookshelf speakers using musical content, the difference is pretty clear. OTOH, it's not something I'd readily define as a difference in pitch, more a sense of spaciousness.

Edit: At least I'm in good enough company with that opinion, old Yoda himself (Bill Fitzmaurice) doesn't seem to think much of the concept of low bass vs pitch definition either.

http://www.billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19806#p215351

It's nonsense. Most of the qualities that laymen call 'musical', like pitch definition and transient response, don't even occur in the subwoofer pass band.

 

[KEW]

Fwiw I have to agree with you here. I have a nice tone generator on my phone and can AirPlay to my avr. It's super fast and easy to choose whatever tones you want and starting at say, 25hz and bumping the frequencies down one hz at a time until about 15hz where my low rent stuff is out of gas, every single frequency is clearly reproduced from the next. And also I can easily tell a difference in movies that have a shelf at 30, 25, 20 or none.

Are you sure you are not keying off of harmonics distortions?
I read an interesting article once talking about how the human mind will use the harmonics and overtones to fill in the fundamental if it is missing. That was in the context of normal instruments, which have overtones/harmonics (that is a lot of how we discriminate between different instruments playing the same pitch). Test tones should be of a single pitch and if your gear is good enough to avoid harmonic distortion, you should be getting a pretty pure fundamental pitch.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Are you sure you are not keying off of harmonics distortions?
I read an interesting article once talking about how the human mind will use the harmonics and overtones to fill in the fundamental if it is missing. That was in the context of normal instruments, which have overtones/harmonics (that is a lot of how we discriminate between different instruments playing the same pitch). Test tones should be of a single pitch and if your gear is good enough to avoid harmonic distortion, you should be getting a pretty pure fundamental pitch.

Well Kurt, that's a fair question, that I figured might be asked in some capacity. I should've added that my mains are powered by a Yamaha pro amp and is easily turned off. This allows me to get a pretty good idea without the mains interfering. Can't say about distortion, but I'm always aware of excursion and very careful with tones, as not to cause damage. Also used REW for a couple years.