New to speakers and these forums!

[Swerd]

You should ask yourself these questions: Are you interested in hearing your own playing at low to middle volumes, but with accurate tones? Or are you interested in hearing your playing at loud volumes and with accurate tones? The difference will be the cost.

 

[TheWrench]

Wow, monitors for a Baldwin church organ are a tall order! Does your organ already have built-in speakers and an amplifier to drive them?

I'd forget Martin Logan speakers. In the price range you have mentioned ~$1500 per pair, ML speakers are only OK. You'd have to go much higher, to roughly $10,000 per pair to get really good MLs . I am assuming that as a musician, you are interested in good sound and accurate frequency response across the entire music range, not just in the bass frequencies.
To get speakers that perform well in the octave below 50 Hz, you will probably need floor standing speakers. You can get very good floor standers for under roughly $3,000 a pair that deliver an honest 33 Hz at loud levels, but as you get down to 25 or 20 Hz, it will cost a lot more money. Speakers that produce sound below that are probably best used for movie sound effects, and not music.

For example, Salk Song3 speakers, a 3-way floor stander sells for $3,000 per pair. They can produce sound with a flat frequency response (±3 dB) as low as 33 Hz to 40,000 Hz (well beyond what is audible). You can see the dimensions and weight on the web link. To get down to an honest 25 Hz, there is the Philharmonic 3, selling for $3,500-3,700 per pair (depending on cabinet & finish). At even higher prices is the Song3 Encore, a beefed up version of the Song3, with a larger and more potent woofer and more robust mid range and tweeter, selling for $5,900 per pair. You can see where this is going.

The only bookshelf speaker I can think of that might do the job for you is the BMR Philharmonitor. It claims it goes down to 30 Hz, and sells for as low as $1,350 per pair (depending on cabinet and finish).

All four of these speakers are designed by a concert musician, Dennis Murphy (violin, viola, piano), who also knows a thing or two about building speakers. You should definitely contact him by email to get his thoughts on using any of these speakers as organ monitors. All these speakers were meant for listening to recorded music, not as musical instrument monitors. Also be sure to ask him about speakers with transmission line cabinets, as this is important for good bass response.

You may have noticed how I repeatedly used the word honest to describe low bass response in speakers. Many of the most widely marketed commercial loudspeakers report exaggerated low bass frequency response as well as exaggerated overall loudness levels (speaker sensitivity) because they know many buyers are swayed by such numbers. The Philharmonic Audio and Salk speakers are known for honest, even conservative ratings.

You should also be aware that both makers sell by Internet Direct sales only. There are no distributors, retail stores, or other middle men that elevate the price.

There are other good speakers available, but I am most familiar with these.

All these speakers require a good amplifier, capable of delivering at least 50-100 watts per channel. Wait on choosing an amp until you know what speakers you are getting.

Well the organ plays notes as low as the teens in Hz, and I know the "fundamental frequency of a 32 foot pipe is 16 hz" but I'd like a little headroom. And the lows are what make the organ sound so amazing, the sheer power of a 3 manual 20 rank organ from the highs to the extreme chest rattling lows are what make it so fun to play.
Organ is one of the things that's more fun to play than it is to listen to lol, and I like the chest rattling lows.

What I would want is speakers up to 30 kHz (because above 20 kHz adds a slight amount of detail) and sub that will go down to 20 hz +/- 1 db, and I'd accept down to 12 or 13 with -6 db. You don't need to have full volume on the 32 foot rank (not just one pipe in that rank, full octave) but it needs to be present enough that on full volume you feel it in your chest.

Any good bookshelf speakers in the $500 to $600 range per pair, so I can find a sub and amp with the rest of the budget?

 

[TheWrench]

You should ask yourself these questions: Are you interested in hearing your own playing at low to middle volumes, but with accurate tones? Or are you interested in hearing your playing at loud volumes and with accurate tones? The difference will be the cost.

I will practice with low to medium volume, but sometimes I want to get my Rode Nt1 out and record myself playing so I don't have to drive all the way to the pipe organ at Iowa state as it's 30 minutes or more to get there. Part of the reason I got the organ console for my house.
When I record, or when people come over and I want to show them the organ, or if I want to watch a movie (quite rare these days, but the organ is in my entertainment room next to my TV so I wouldn't have to move speakers) I'd like them to have a loud volume with accurate sound.

As for questions about things built into the organ, the whole console is essentially a DAC and there is a built in Preamp, but not an amp. The church it came out of had it hooked up to powered speakers but they were old and pretty much garbage so I didn't ask for them.

 

[Swerd]

Well the organ plays notes as low as the teens in Hz, and I know the "fundamental frequency of a 32 foot pipe is 16 hz" but I'd like a little headroom. And the lows are what make the organ sound so amazing, the sheer power of a 3 manual 20 rank organ from the highs to the extreme chest rattling lows are what make it so fun to play.
Organ is one of the things that's more fun to play than it is to listen to lol, and I like the chest rattling lows.

What I would want is speakers up to 30 kHz (because above 20 kHz adds a slight amount of detail) and sub that will go down to 20 hz +/- 1 db, and I'd accept down to 12 or 13 with -6 db. You don't need to have full volume on the 32 foot rank (not just one pipe in that rank, full octave) but it needs to be present enough that on full volume you feel it in your chest.

Any good bookshelf speakers in the $500 to $600 range per pair, so I can find a sub and amp with the rest of the budget?

In my experience, what you seek is a tall order for any speaker.

Down to roughly 30 Hz is not common, but doable and expensive. Down to about 25 Hz is a realistic lower range for loudspeakers. Separate sub woofers can extend that down to 20 Hz or lower, but they come with a large price tag.

I'm not certain you can get that for speakers selling in the $500-600 per pair range. Amplifier and sub woofer will cost extra.

I really recommend you talk with both Dennis Murphy, and Jim Salk. They have knowledge and experience – we have favorites and opinions . Tell them what you mentioned above.

 

[TheWrench]

In my experience, what you seek is a tall order for any speaker.

Down to roughly 30 Hz is not common, but doable and expensive. Down to about 25 Hz is a realistic lower range for loudspeakers. Separate sub woofers can extend that down to 20 Hz or lower, but they come with a large price tag.

I'm not certain you can get that for speakers selling in the $500-600 per pair range. Amplifier and sub woofer will cost extra.

I really recommend you talk with both Dennis Murphy, and Jim Salk. They have knowledge and experience – we have favorites and opinions . Tell them what you mentioned above.

That's what I meant, $500-$600 for only speakers, and $1500.. maaaaybe $1750 left for separate sub and amp.

 

[KEW]

Dollar for dollar with emphasis on value, I really don't think anything beats Dennis Murphy's Philharmonic Audio speakers.
Salk are equally neutral/accurate (also being Dennis Murphy's designs), but from a value standpoint you are paying for a top-notch furniture grade finish (which many of us are willing to pay for).
The Philharmonics come with cabinets more in keeping with what you would see on the floor at Best Buy. They look nice, but no ones going to do a double take over their finish.
Contact Murphy and see what ideas he has.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Wow lots of replies! That's great! I can't believe I forgot room size. It's 14 feet by 28 feet. It's a big room, not worried about floor space, I just wanted them to fit on the organ console and that total size is 54" across and 30" deep where I have room. I have crap speakers that are on the floor to my right but I'd like the sound to either surround me, or be directed at my face, but that said I COULD put them behind me, there's absolutely no issue with space there.

Yes I know organ monitors is an interesting use case but my practice organ at Iowa state is a full pipe organ and I'd like to get close to replicating that sound within reason (I know it will never be exact and won't have the pure power of a 1 million dollar pipe organ)

I was going to temporarily use the preamp built into my Schiit magni 2 uber until I built an amp or bought one (is diy amp's a thing in speakers? I soldered up a bottlehead crack and speedball for a friend and loved it, just couldn't afford it at the time)
I believe the uber has up to like 4-6 watts per 32 ohm but it would only be until I got a proper amp.

Lots of options hmm.... I have the room for floorstanding speakers. Weight isn't an issue, the organ weighs 400 pounds lol, and I got that in the house with only 1 other person using ramps, levers and other tools, I'm sure we can figured out something to get it in haha.

I appreciate all the replies, I'll look more into bowers and rbh svt and the rest you have recommended.

For organ, you'll definitely want something that can go down to 20Hz or close to it @ -3dB. This usually means a separate subwoofer.

Or something like the JTR and RBH SVT tower.

The SVT tower is a 61" modular tower, but the bass cabinet is actually a TRUE big subwoofer with dual 12" woofers.

I just placed an order for the SVT tower. I plan on setting the towers up as monitors + subwoofer. My Denon AVR will power the top cabinets for tweeters and midrange. The SA-500DSP subwoofer amplifier will be powering the bottom subwoofer cabinets.

But a separate Subwoofer + speakers is usually more economical and easier to install by yourself due to weight of the components.

 

[2channel lover]

@Swerd

Good post.

In hindsight, I think you're right for the purpose that the OP wants to use the speakers. The MLs are not a good choice...not w/o a sub for sure.

Generally speaking, I'm willing to vouch for the ML Motion 40. It's more than $1500 for the pair, ($2k), but I think this is better than average floor stander for moderate size rooms. I'm willing to bet the Salk Towers will out perform them for slightly less money, but that's another topic.

 

[TheWrench]

So By the sounds of it I want to spend $500 on a single or pair of speakers, leaving the entire rest of my budget for a sub and amp. I love the clarity of electrostatic though... is there an electrostatic single speaker without a sub (so I can buy my own sub to match) I can get around 500 or 600 dollars? I mean realistically it's primary use is for organ, and I don't need surround sound for that, I'd prefer clarity first, stereo sound second.
I think the sub I want to go with is the VTF 15H mark ii, I don't care too much about the finish.

So given those stats, knowing I'll be buying amp, and sub to compensate for lows, what speakers 40-50 hz and up would you guys recommend? It could be a single speaker too if that means I get much better clarity (like... electrostatic Haha)

 

[TheWrench]

Hey guys so I've been reading around. What do you guys think of having 2 ML 4i's for $500, and the vtf 15h mk ii for a sub, and since those speakers are relatively easy to drive supposedly, what would you guys say for an amp or avr to run it through? The remainder of my budget for the amp or Avr or both would be $600

 

[NINaudio]

That sub should get you the bass output you desire for reproducing the lowest notes of the organ. I'm not familiar with the ML's though.

You can get some quality AVR's for what's left in your budget from accessories for less. Denon and Yamaha come highly rated. I'd probably go for the Denon x3300 with that leftover budget.

 

[shadyJ]

The VTF15H mk2 can be tuned to precisely 16 Hz making it perfect for deep pipe organ music. In fact, Hsu ships their subs out with a sampler disc which contains a tremendous organ recording, an excerpt from saint saenz organ symphony. I believe Dr. Hsu has historically tuned his subs for precisely such music, his older VTF-3 models were tuned to 16 Hz.

As for the ML speakers, I am a bit skeptical of that design, that would not be my first choice. I would get something that is a proven performer. At $500, I would be looking at maybe Ascend Acoustics CBM-170s, Hsu Research HB-1 mk2s, Monoprice Monolith K-BAS. If the AVR that you get has pre-outs, I would take a real close look at getting some JBL LSR308 speakers, and they might be my first choice at $500.

 

[TheWrench]

The VTF15H mk2 can be tuned to precisely 16 Hz making it perfect for deep pipe organ music. In fact, Hsu ships their subs out with a sampler disc which contains a tremendous organ recording, an excerpt from saint saenz organ symphony. I believe Dr. Hsu has historically tuned his subs for precisely such music, his older VTF-3 models were tuned to 16 Hz.

As for the ML speakers, I am a bit skeptical of that design, that would not be my first choice. I would get something that is a proven performer. At $500, I would be looking at maybe Ascend Acoustics CBM-170s, Hsu Research HB-1 mk2s, Monoprice Monolith K-BAS. If the AVR that you get has pre-outs, I would take a real close look at getting some JBL LSR308 speakers, and they might be my first choice at $500.

I just found the jbl 308's, and someone used them and a sub for a church, and he said that he had an issue with them not dropping off enough where the sub kicks in, so there was overlap from 35 hz to 80 hz and it was too loud in that range so he had to turn crossover down to 35 or 40 hz. Shouldn't be much of an issue but it's worth noting.

 

[lovinthehd]

I just found the jbl 308's, and someone used them and a sub for a church, and he said that he had an issue with them not dropping off enough where the sub kicks in, so there was overlap from 35 hz to 80 hz and it was too loud in that range so he had to turn crossover down to 35 or 40 hz. Shouldn't be much of an issue but it's worth noting.

Depends how bass management was employed...good speakers in any case.

 

[KEW]

I just found the jbl 308's, and someone used them and a sub for a church, and he said that he had an issue with them not dropping off enough where the sub kicks in, so there was overlap from 35 hz to 80 hz and it was too loud in that range so he had to turn crossover down to 35 or 40 hz. Shouldn't be much of an issue but it's worth noting.

Not a huge difference, but I would consider the JBL LSR305's.
In addition to saving the cost of an AVR, there is a good chance that you can pick them up locally and have the assurance of a easy return if you find them unsuitable (I think you'll be impressed)!

 

[shadyJ]

I just found the jbl 308's, and someone used them and a sub for a church, and he said that he had an issue with them not dropping off enough where the sub kicks in, so there was overlap from 35 hz to 80 hz and it was too loud in that range so he had to turn crossover down to 35 or 40 hz. Shouldn't be much of an issue but it's worth noting.

As has been said, that wouldn't be an issue with the speakers, that is a setup issue. The user wasn't properly using bass management.

 

[TheWrench]

Not a huge difference, but I would consider the JBL LSR305's.
In addition to saving the cost of an AVR, there is a good chance that you can pick them up locally and have the assurance of a easy return if you find them unsuitable (I think you'll be impressed)!

Are you saying that the 308's need an avr and the 305's don't? Besides if I didn't need an AVR I'd put the money towards better speakers.

 

[shadyJ]

Are you saying that the 308's need an avr and the 305's don't? Besides if I didn't need an AVR I'd put the money towards better speakers.

If you want to watch movies with this system, you need an AVR.

The 308s and 305s are essentially the same, but the 308s will have more powerful bass capability.

 

[TheWrench]

If you want to watch movies with this system, you need an AVR.

The 308s and 305s are essentially the same, but the 308s will have more powerful bass capability.

Movies? Meh lol

Do the 305's and 308's have the same tweeter?

 

[shadyJ]

Movies? Meh lol

Do the 305's and 308's have the same tweeter?

If they don't have the same exact tweeter, their tweeter will be very closely alike. For our purposes, they have the same tweeter, especially since they are using the same horn geometry.

If you can skip movies, you can just get the LSR speakers and the subwoofer and skip the AVR. The LSRs and sub have their own amplification. You will still want some way to high-pass the bass out of the LSR speakers. You can get a simple high-pass filter like this one to do that, or you can get something more complex, but more versatile, like this thing.