Real Output In Each Channel of AVR

S

SAPSEC

Enthusiast
Hi folks,

AVR receivers, nowadays, only rate output capacity with 2 channel driven (ie: 100W / channel with 2 ch driven). When connecting all speakers in either 5.1 or 7.1 set up, it's sure that each channel would output LESS power. How much less : 20% less, 30% less, or 50% less ? Does anyone know ? Is it possible to figure out this information ?
Thanks
 
H

Hetfield

Audioholic Samurai
A lot less is my guess. Audioholics just tested a Yamaha Aventage receiver at 35 watts a channel which is pathetic.

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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
That would certainly depend on the input signal to each channel at the exact same time.
Most programs do not max out a receiver in all channels at the exact same time.
Power is rated as continuous power and may or may not be rated for what is called dynamic power that is a very short burst that can exceed the rated power.

What are you after?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
S

SAPSEC

Enthusiast
That would certainly depend on the input signal to each channel at the exact same time.
Most programs do not max out a receiver in all channels at the exact same time.
Power is rated as continuous power and may or may not be rated for what is called dynamic power that is a very short burst that can exceed the rated power.

What are you after?
Sometimes I run 5ch stereo for music, I use floor speakers (rated 150W). That's why I want to know power outputted by each channel. If not enough power I think using an external Emotiva 5 channels (120W each for 5 channels). Thanks
 
WaynePflughaupt

WaynePflughaupt

Audioholic Samurai

Personally speaking, that’s when I use it...

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
ACD (all channels driven) ratings are overrated as to usefulness. Surround content by design is generally lower level anyways let alone simultaneous. Find an independent bench test for a given avr if you want to see how it does in ACD testing. Here's two for my Denon avrs since the links I have bookmarked
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-4520ci-av-receiver-test-bench
https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-3808ci-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures
Yamaha's and some of the latest marantz receivers seem to do miserably in ACD tests. The best benchmarks I've seen tend to come from Onkyo, even their lower models such as the TX-NR 646 rated at 110w continuous into 2ch managed 90w with 7ch driven. While it's true that not all channels will be called to play at full blast 100% of the time, it most certainly does happen, especially in action movies. A receiver that dips down to 50wpc from 100wpc or worse could be the difference between clipping or not. It might only equate to a 3dB difference when talking about continuous power, but a receiver that can manage closer to its 2ch ratings in ACD tests is much more likely to have the current needed to handle those brief peaks and low impedance dips found in some speakers. Most that can handle it seem to perform much better with peak outputs in bench tests.

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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yamaha's and some of the latest marantz receivers seem to do miserably in ACD tests.

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You could be right about the Yamaha's, but wait, they dropped a lot in ACD tests but those were when "continuously driven". S&V did not do such tests for short term driven conditions. So we really do not know how Yamaha receivers would perform in ACD when amplifying music or movie programs.

For those who use 7 channel stereo a lot, that could become a valid factor, but in practice, unless one listens to higher than average spl in a larger room, even if the ACD output drops from 140W to 50W, the amps would still be well below their clipping point. That is because with all 7 speakers going, you get a few dB boost in spl from your listening positions, and that could be equivalent to having the higher 2Ch power rating back. For party music, it will likely have very little dynamic peaks so then again, 50WX7 simultaneously will most likely be more than enough. Also, even the Emotiva 5 channel 120W amp won't sustain 600W total continuously anyway. Except for amps that are designed for it, the so called "continuous" rating does not imply literally continuous, it is just for long enough duration that can take care of real world music/movie programs without overheating the amp.

All in all, really a moot point. I would take a Yamaha AVR that has superior dynamic output over one (even separates) that offer 2ch output slightly higher than their ACD output, just as an extreme example.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Sometimes I run 5ch stereo for music, I use floor speakers (rated 150W). That's why I want to know power outputted by each channel. If not enough power I think using an external Emotiva 5 channels (120W each for 5 channels). Thanks
But even a stereo signal does not have peaks at the exact same instant in all channels unless it is a mono signal to all and in sink.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
You could be right about the Yamaha's, but wait, they dropped a lot in ACD tests but those were when "continuously driven". S&V did not do such tests for short term driven conditions. So we really do not know how Yamaha receivers would perform in ACD when amplifying music or movie programs.

For those who use 7 channel stereo a lot, that could become a valid factor, but in practice, unless one listens to higher than average spl in a larger room, even if the ACD output drops from 140W to 50W, the amps would still be well below their clipping point. That is because with all 7 speakers going, you get a few dB boost in spl from your listening positions, and that could be equivalent to having the higher 2Ch power rating back. For party music, it will likely have very little dynamic peaks so then again, 50WX7 simultaneously will most likely be more than enough. Also, even the Emotiva 5 channel 120W amp won't sustain 600W total continuously anyway. Except for amps that are designed for it, the so called "continuous" rating does not imply literally continuous, it is just for long enough duration that can take care of real world music/movie programs without overheating the amp.

All in all, really a moot point. I would take a Yamaha AVR that has superior dynamic output over one (even separates) that offer 2ch output slightly higher than their ACD output, just as an extreme example.
AH recently did one. And while you may get an SPL boost, it doesn't reduce the need for power. If you listen at -5dB for movies, and a full blast scene hits, each speaker needs enough power to hit 100dB each. If one has a speaker rated for 89dB at 1m, and they're three meters away, you lose about 9dB. At 50w, you're 4dB short, meaning you really need about 125w

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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
AH recently did one. And while you may get an SPL boost, it doesn't reduce the need for power. If you listen at -5dB for movies, and a full blast scene hits, each speaker needs enough power to hit 100dB each. If one has a speaker rated for 89dB at 1m, and they're three meters away, you lose about 9dB. At 50w, you're 4dB short, meaning you really need about 125w

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There are a few points in your example that I would like to make:

- At 3 meters you lose 9.54 dB but that's in an anechoic chamber, or free field conditions. We both know that is not the case in our HT rooms especially if the rooms are not very big. This factor alone could get the 4 dB short that you referenced to down a notch, if not totally back.

- For the full blast (explosion?) scene you mentioned, it most likely would last only a few seconds and only the first split second would hit the peak spl, it wouldn't just stay at that peak level for the whole duration.

- For movies, most people would have a sub or two, and most would probably crossover at around 80 Hz so that ought to help 2 to 3 dB.

- You mentioned the AH did one that included dynamic power, if you use the one on the RX-A860, the results actually support my argument.

7 channel stereo (I never listen to that..), would in fact be a better example.

There are other factors, but I have not much doubt that the ACD thing is a moot point in real world applications. Like anything else there are always exceptions that one may have not have accounted for, that's why I would also recommend people getting more power than they need. If a good practical online spl calculator say you need 100W, I would get 150W, just as an example.
 
A

Andrein

Senior Audioholic
That works for party situations, but I much prefer listening in stereo. if you want the room filled with sound, turn it up!
I guess it's possible to eq not all speakers individually but Left front/Left surround/Left surr back together and then same for right. So that you fix any raising issues with cancellations, etc but still have higher spl from many speakers.
 
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