Ascend Acoustics Sierra Luna Mini-Monitor Speaker Demo Report

TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Again, how do you know these are "resonances" and not just entirely normal peaks and dips in frequency response? If they were truly resonances, wouldn't they show up in Stereophile's waterfall?
Because loudspeakers are minimum phase devices, so when you see it spiking 2,3, even 5dB above the average sound level in multiple curves, it's ringing.

Combine that with a failure to maintain even a +/- 3dB tolerance on axis. There was clearly more work to be done!
 
B

Beave

Audioholic Chief
So, again, why don't they show up in the waterfall plots?

And since there are dozens of speakers measured by the NRC that have peaks "2,3, even 5dB above the average sound level," does that mean they all have resonances?
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
When you can see pronounced peaks and dips, you know they are resonances when they are visible in all 3 curves and even the Listening Window. The further off axis you go the clearer the culprit frequencies are @ 700, 1200, 1500, 2000 and even a couple low Q break up modes starting at 15khz and something weird going on down low. I'd be guessing if I said that mostly resulted from the coaxial design, but even that is questionable given the very low sensitivity.

Given that its just a coaxial in a box, it was hard not to feel the price matched the performance. Dennis, your AA monitors put them back in their box very quickly! They don't have quite the detail up high, but the midrange was unmistakably better.
If you go through the NRC plots for other speakers, you'll see far worse peaks and dips, and virtually none where they are absent. I'm sure that if I had the AA monitors measured in the NRC anechoic chamber, the same little wiggles would shop up. You see them more prominently on the NRC measurements than on other measurements simply because the true anechoic chamber allows a cleaner plot with greater resolution. A lot of those wiggles are diffraction effects, which are not inherent resonances in the drivers. The Stereophile waterfall plot is indeed very clean, and any significant resonances would show up there. The overall trend of the NRC measurements probably provides a better indication of the LS50's sonic signature than the wiggles. The slight downward trend in the response up to around 2 kHz, followed by the upward shelving at 2k might be evidence of the coloration you were hearing.
 
Last edited:
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Waterfall's are very pretty. But they require you to choose between time/domain/amplitude resolution, can't have them all simultaneously. In other words, you can make them look like whatever you want. You can see how narrow the amplitude is set, so while the bumps are highly suppressed, they are still there. And even Stereophiles low res 1/6 octave measurements have spikes all over the place, in-room. But those are also loudness graphs which are weighted differently than SPL. The NRC measurements are a higher resolution which serves to make the offending frequencies more clear(jagged spike vs broad hump)

If diffraction was the issue, what obstacles are the sound waves coming in contact with 0 through 75deg off axis at all those frequencies? Only the high Q resonance at 2khz is likely diffraction resulting from the coaxial design, and a low crossover frequency that shows a rise in amplitude resulting from differing driver sensitivities. The low overall sensitivity probably explains the crossover choice as the woofer wouldn't have been able to keep up with the tweeter if asked to cover a broader frequency range.

Just to show my perspective, I've been studying the work of Harman/Toole/Olive/Welti/Devantier and realize that the subjective preferences listeners have can be explained in the speakers' frequency response. It's 2017, we know how to measure all of these things, and the hundreds if not thousands of double blind tests performed at Harman confirm that we can predict listener preference with sufficient measurements (70). We as consumers should be DEMANDING comprehensive measurements from every manufacturer. Those KEF's are $1500 and can't maintain +/- 3dB.



Again, it's 2017, and yes the JBL M2 is a top of the line speaker, but many others are capable of reaching a +/- 1 dB threshold as well. I do not purposely pick on KEF here, it's only that I was able to listen to that speaker on several different days and kept coming away with the same impression. A conversation with an engineer is how I found the Soundstage measurements. The correlation between those measurements and what I was hearing compared to 3 other speakers was obvious.

Personally, I feel the Phil 3's ribbons compress too much for movie sfx and are outperformed by beryllium - side by side test with a Focal monitor with inverted dome(highly subjective, me just wanting the best of the best). So, Dennis, I'll be putting your speakers through CTA2034 this fall, actually, so I can design a well paired center channel. If I can get my hands on a single AA, I'll run that too. I really think you are gifted with a true 'golden ear' and your designs will easily meet a +/- 3db threshold. But I need the measurements because I do not have your talent!

Please note I'm taking those measurements solely for my purposes, but I will be happy to share the data with you, privately. The only measurements I'll be posting in the future will be the response of my room after I complete a major overhaul.

Thank you for the thread jack!
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
Waterfall's are very pretty. But they require you to choose between time/domain/amplitude resolution, can't have them all simultaneously. In other words, you can make them look like whatever you want. You can see how narrow the amplitude is set, so while the bumps are highly suppressed, they are still there.
Thank you for the thread jack!
I haven't heard the LS50's, so I can't really comment on exactly what you're hearing, or whether I think it's a resonance or a frequency domain issue. I very much suspect the latter, because the Stereophile waterfalls have enough resolution to reveal any serious stored energy. Although I try to get my speakers to measure as flat as possible, I can't meet your standards for +/- 1 dB, and I think it would be a waste of money to try and throw enough components into the mix to reduce a little dip here or little peak there. In some cases, you just can't do that with passive components anyhow.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
I haven't heard the LS50's, so I can't really comment on exactly what you're hearing, or whether I think it's a resonance or a frequency domain issue. I very much suspect the latter, because the Stereophile waterfalls have enough resolution to reveal any serious stored energy. Although I try to get my speakers to measure as flat as possible, I can't meet your standards for +/- 1 dB, and I think it would be a waste of money to try and throw enough components into the mix to reduce a little dip here or little peak there. In some cases, you just can't do that with passive components anyhow.
I don't expect the Phil's to pull off a 2 dB range, 6dB will still keep them ahead of the curve for mostly full range floor standers, at any price. I agree completely that (2dB: +/- 1dB) is *mostly* only possible with active speakers, or very specially designed sets of drivers intended to work together. Picking off the shelf drivers to work together presents a whole other challenge, as you know. But also please don't misunderstand my expectations. Ruler flat is a helluva accomplishment, but small peaks are one thing, ringing in the audible frequency range that is evidenced by multiple off axis measurements are (or should be) considered an incomplete design - of course operating budget and expected retail price play a major factor in that. But it would be awesome if consumers were made aware of that before purchasing. Floyd Toole uses car tires as a great example. The side of a tire contains all of the info one could ever need in regards to application and expected performance. But then we trust speaker manufacturers with silly, untested (or at least the test is not made public) designs, that claim very broad performance numbers, that many (according to the Harman database of speakers that have undergone the 'spinorama' of CTA2034) will never achieve.

The fact that you test individual drivers to maintain specification puts you in very thin company. A pair of Revel Salon2's would cost $40k, mostly due to the reproducibility of the design. That confidence in knowing the speakers that show up will meet a very high standard with zero call backs costs an extraordinary sum, and thats part of what one pays for at that level. You've been able to do that at a fraction of the cost, in an incredibly competitive market where pseudo-science and marketing almost dominate. So if a comprehensive measurement standard can further verify your innate abilities, then I am happy to provide!
 
B

Beave

Audioholic Chief
Do you not realize that the M2s have such a flat frequency response because of active amplification and DSP controlled crossovers (ie, eq)?
 
B

Beave

Audioholic Chief
Yes, I saw that in your subsequent post.

Here are some other things you wrote in your two posts:

"Again, it's 2017, and yes the JBL M2 is a top of the line speaker, but many others are capable of reaching a +/- 1 dB threshold as well." (My emphasis added.)

"I agree completely that (2dB: +/- 1dB) is *mostly* only possible with active speakers, or very specially designed sets of drivers intended to work together."

So which is it? Are many others capable of reaching this spec, or is it only possible in very limited cases?

Further, you still haven't convinced me or others that the KEF LS50 exhibits ringing, no matter how many times you state it or reference Toole's name and book. By your claims, the Revel M106 also has multiple resonances/ringing - as does pretty much every speaker ever measured by the NRC. Look at those peaks at 90Hz, 140Hz, 700Hz, 5kHz, etc.

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1358:nrc-measurements-revel-performa3-m106-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Yes, I saw that in your subsequent post.

Here are some other things you wrote in your two posts:

"Again, it's 2017, and yes the JBL M2 is a top of the line speaker, but many others are capable of reaching a +/- 1 dB threshold as well." (My emphasis added.)

"I agree completely that (2dB: +/- 1dB) is *mostly* only possible with active speakers, or very specially designed sets of drivers intended to work together."

So which is it? Are many others capable of reaching this spec, or is it only possible in very limited cases?

Further, you still haven't convinced me or others that the KEF LS50 exhibits ringing, no matter how many times you state it or reference Toole's name and book. By your claims, the Revel M106 also has multiple resonances/ringing - as does pretty much every speaker ever measured by the NRC. Look at those peaks at 90Hz, 140Hz, 700Hz, 5kHz, etc.

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1358:nrc-measurements-revel-performa3-m106-loudspeakers&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153
"Many" may have been a bit too optimistic, but if you can't tell the differences in the M106 plots vs. LS50 then there's not much to discuss.

You either acknowledge that Harman's measurement standard and related subjective listening tests are worthy of their near certainty (.86 coefficient) or are still subscribing to the endless poetry written by reviewers and the biased marketing that our emotional connections naturally gravitate towards. (including myself who has written pages of comments on speakers) I called BS on myself when I sold my Bose, have you?
 
B

Beave

Audioholic Chief
"Many" may have been a bit too optimistic, but if you can't tell the differences in the M106 plots vs. LS50 then there's not much to discuss.

You either acknowledge that Harman's measurement standard and related subjective listening tests are worthy of their near certainty (.86 coefficient) or are still subscribing to the endless poetry written by reviewers and the biased marketing that our emotional connections naturally gravitate towards. (including myself who has written pages of comments on speakers) I called BS on myself when I sold my Bose, have you?
That seems rather tangential. What does believing Harman's measurement standard or following reviewers have to do with anything being discussed here?

To get back on topic, should I dig through Stereophile's measurements and show the countless examples of bookshelf speakers with resonances that DO show up in their waterfall plots? I'm still trying to grasp why so many speakers JA has measured do have resonances that show up, but somehow the KEF LS50 has significant, audible resonances that evaded his testing.
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
That seems rather tangential. What does believing Harman's measurement standard or following reviewers have to do with anything being discussed here?

To get back on topic, should I dig through Stereophile's measurements ...
Hmmmmm I thought the topic was the Ascend Luna. That seems like a very interesting design. Dave literally went to great lengths (port lengths, that is) to get a tuning point of 60 Hz in such a tiny cabinet. I wouldn't ordinarily think it could work, but the Seas Curve drivers are among my favorites. Excellent bass and extremely smooth response with, ahem, minimal resonances in the breakup region. I would very much enjoy hearing how everything turned out.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
That seems rather tangential. What does believing Harman's measurement standard or following reviewers have to do with anything being discussed here?

To get back on topic, should I dig through Stereophile's measurements and show the countless examples of bookshelf speakers with resonances that DO show up in their waterfall plots? I'm still trying to grasp why so many speakers JA has measured do have resonances that show up, but somehow the KEF LS50 has significant, audible resonances that evaded his testing.
Well before we start discussing the pythagorean theorem, Harman's correlation between subjective listening and objective measurements is what I've been adding to this the thread the whole time. It was a former Harman engineer that discussed the Soundstage measurements with me. My ears knew something was wrong, but my brain didn't have the understanding to make sense of it.

Harman's measurement standard is based off the NRC work that Floyd Toole did while at the NRC Ottawa that Soundstage uses. On axis anechoic measurements are meaningful, but myopic. You need comprehensive measurements (10deg interval all the way around both horizontal and vertical planes - 70 measurements total) to fully understand the contributions of the loudspeaker to a room. Soundstage at least covers a portion of that.

Thanks to that research, we have a clear understanding of how the room influences sound, and how much human perception negates that understanding - not very much! We can listen through rooms, as Floyd's research has demonstrated, despite what paid endorsers will tell you.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
Hmmmmm I thought the topic was the Ascend Luna. That seems like a very interesting design. Dave literally went to great lengths (port lengths, that is) to get a tuning point of 60 Hz in such a tiny cabinet. I wouldn't ordinarily think it could work, but the Seas Curve drivers are among my favorites. Excellent bass and extremely smooth response with, ahem, minimal resonances in the breakup region. I would very much enjoy hearing how everything turned out.
Agreed, and I will end my rantings..... and great sound for all!
 
B

Beave

Audioholic Chief
Hmmmmm I thought the topic was the Ascend Luna. That seems like a very interesting design. Dave literally went to great lengths (port lengths, that is) to get a tuning point of 60 Hz in such a tiny cabinet. I wouldn't ordinarily think it could work, but the Seas Curve drivers are among my favorites. Excellent bass and extremely smooth response with, ahem, minimal resonances in the breakup region. I would very much enjoy hearing how everything turned out.
Haha, good point - I'd forgotten what the original original topic was! Sorry Dave for contributing to the hijacking of a thread that should celebrate a new entry to the Ascend lineup!
 
B

Beave

Audioholic Chief
Well before we start discussing the pythagorean theorem, Harman's correlation between subjective listening and objective measurements is what I've been adding to this the thread the whole time. It was a former Harman engineer that discussed the Soundstage measurements with me. My ears knew something was wrong, but my brain didn't have the understanding to make sense of it.

Harman's measurement standard is based off the NRC work that Floyd Toole did while at the NRC Ottawa that Soundstage uses. On axis anechoic measurements are meaningful, but myopic. You need comprehensive measurements (10deg interval all the way around both horizontal and vertical planes - 70 measurements total) to fully understand the contributions of the loudspeaker to a room. Soundstage at least covers a portion of that.

Thanks to that research, we have a clear understanding of how the room influences sound, and how much human perception negates that understanding - not very much! We can listen through rooms, as Floyd's research has demonstrated, despite what paid endorsers will tell you.
Nothing new to me here.
 
D

davef

Audioholic Intern
Hmmmmm I thought the topic was the Ascend Luna. That seems like a very interesting design. Dave literally went to great lengths (port lengths, that is) to get a tuning point of 60 Hz in such a tiny cabinet. I wouldn't ordinarily think it could work, but the Seas Curve drivers are among my favorites. Excellent bass and extremely smooth response with, ahem, minimal resonances in the breakup region. I would very much enjoy hearing how everything turned out.
Thanks Dennis, although I must say I was enjoying the friendly banter on the LS50.
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top