Denon x3300, klipsch rp280s and rp450center

[bradymartin]

11x11 room

avr and speakers are brand new, so is amazon basic wires im using. i received the speakers today and set them up.

very underwhelming sound. something is wrong, cant figure it out.

ran audyssey, settings are good. distances are accurate, levels for speakers -10, center -8.5 i think

i had an old pioneer bs22 pair hooked up with the avr in the meantime waiting for the klipsch, and it got pretty loud at 60 or so. and they sound better.

with the klipsch that are more sensitive i need to get to 70 to sound as loud, but sounds weak and sort of hollow, not as good as the bs22s.

i expected to be wowed especially since i had a pair of 160ms connected to my computer and a cheap lepai amp and they sounded awesome.

not sure what is happening here. i used some 5 year old banana plugs with the klipsch. maybe ill try without the plugs.

also, i had arc on at first, but turned all that crap off. with arc off they sound slightly better do i need to break the speakers in for a week? what is going on?

any ideas?

 

[DubPlate]

11x11 room

avr and speakers are brand new, so is amazon basic wires im using. i received the speakers today and set them up.

very underwhelming sound. something is wrong, cant figure it out.

ran audyssey, settings are good. distances are accurate, levels for speakers -10, center -8.5 i think

i had an old pioneer bs22 pair hooked up with the avr in the meantime waiting for the klipsch, and it got pretty loud at 60 or so. and they sound better.

with the klipsch that are more sensitive i need to get to 70 to sound as loud, but sounds weak and sort of hollow, not as good as the bs22s.

i expected to be wowed especially since i had a pair of 160ms connected to my computer and a cheap lepai amp and they sounded awesome.

not sure what is happening here. i used some 5 year old banana plugs with the klipsch. maybe ill try without the plugs.

also, i had arc on at first, but turned all that crap off. with arc off they sound slightly better do i need to break the speakers in for a week? what is going on?

any ideas?

 

[KEW]

Only plug one speaker into the AVR at a time and see how they sound.
This would reveal which connections are bad if that is the problem (unless all are bad).
If they sound strong individually, then it is a good bet that one of the speakers is wired out of phase (negative and positive reversed). In this case, one woofer is going out when the other is going in and they partially cancel each other so the sound is not as strong as it should be.

Break-in is not the issue.

For now, run the AVR in Pure Direct Mode to eliminate any settings effecting the sound.

You are, of course, right that the Klipsch should be recognizably more efficient.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

11x11 room

avr and speakers are brand new, so is amazon basic wires im using. i received the speakers today and set them up.

very underwhelming sound. something is wrong, cant figure it out.

ran audyssey, settings are good. distances are accurate, levels for speakers -10, center -8.5 i think

i had an old pioneer bs22 pair hooked up with the avr in the meantime waiting for the klipsch, and it got pretty loud at 60 or so. and they sound better.

with the klipsch that are more sensitive i need to get to 70 to sound as loud, but sounds weak and sort of hollow, not as good as the bs22s.

i expected to be wowed especially since i had a pair of 160ms connected to my computer and a cheap lepai amp and they sounded awesome.

not sure what is happening here. i used some 5 year old banana plugs with the klipsch. maybe ill try without the plugs.

also, i had arc on at first, but turned all that crap off. with arc off they sound slightly better do i need to break the speakers in for a week? what is going on?

any ideas?

Did you try turning Audyssey Dynamic EQ to ON and Dynamic Volume to OFF?

For everything, I always set Audyssey to "Audyssey Bypass L/R" + Dynamic EQ to On and Dynamic Volume to Off.

I own two Denon 3000 series, and both sound fantastic with speakers like Linkwitz Orion 3.2.1, Philharmonic 3, and B&W 802 D2.

 

[bradymartin]

dynamic eq is on, dynamic volume is off. i tried direct and same weak sound. ill check polarity but the denon running audyssey didnt say anything was out of phase.

 

[DubPlate]

The specs for the x3300 indicate 105w at 8 ohms, two channels driven. You may have considerable less power where in excess of two channels are driven contemporaneously, especially at high levels.

Which brings me to my main point, the real world sensitivity of the 280s differ substantially from that reported by Klipsch. Also, the 280s spend quite some time at 4 ohms and below. See: http://hometheaterreview.com/klipsch-rp-280fa-tower-speaker-reviewed/?page=2

In essence, despite there relatively high sensitivity, and 8 ohm rating, it appears you need some power to make the 280s shine. I say this based on personal experience, and based on posts I have read where folks replace relatively high sensitivity speakers with the 280s, with the understanding that the 280s are rated even higher in sensitivity, but end up being disappointed as the they don't seem to play as loud as the speakers being replaced.

In your case, as well as that of many others, the real world sensitivity of the 280s may in fact be lower than the speakers being replaced.

In theory, given the rated sensitivity of the 280s, a true 50 wpc amp at 8 ohm should be plenty, but for the reasons stated above, you may need more if you like to listen at high levels.

With that said, I would recommend that you do not run them full range. Cross them at say 60 Hz.

Listen in stereo mode, at least for music, to allow max power to the mains.

Place the 280s closer to the back wall.

More brake in will obviously help.

I do minimal toe in, to where the speakers are pointed substantially beyond my shoulders. But if you toe in more, you get a sense of increased volume, with some trade offs of course.

Get a two channel amp for your mains.

 

[bradymartin]

im novice and i dont know all about specs etc. i just expected the klipsch towers to be as loud and better sounding as the bs22s at the same volume. though i bought the klipsch from a online website adorama which is suspect to me now because of the customer service disaster i went through to get them, everything looks new though so ill rule adorama out.

that said i think there might be something true about break in. they are sounding slightly better. the more i listen to them.

dont have a sub yet, waiting for the hsu mk5 or the outlaw 12 to go on sale.

one thing i noticed is i do need to bring up the volume to at least 50, and the higher i raise the volume the better they sound. but i dont want to push them since the speakers are new and i want to break them in more. i suspect if i go to 70 or so on the x3300 they will sounds awesome like i expected.

but when i auditioned the 280s at frys electronics at 62 on their receiver was plenty loud.

 

[lovinthehd]

im novice and i dont know all about specs etc. i just expected the klipsch towers to be as loud and better sounding as the bs22s at the same volume. though i bought the klipsch from a online website adorama which is suspect to me now because of the customer service disaster i went through to get them, everything looks new though so ill rule adorama out.

that said i think there might be something true about break in. they are sounding slightly better. the more i listen to them.

dont have a sub yet, waiting for the hsu mk5 or the outlaw 12 to go on sale.

one thing i noticed is i do need to bring up the volume to at least 50, and the higher i raise the volume the better they sound. but i dont want to push them since the speakers are new and i want to break them in more. i suspect if i go to 70 or so on the x3300 they will sounds awesome like i expected.

but when i auditioned the 280s at frys electronics at 62 on their receiver was plenty loud.

Break in is more often about you getting used to the gear....there's little mechanical break in involved. The volume scale you use doesn't necessarily translate to other volume scales/calibrations of same. Sensitivity specs are what can give you an idea about loudness with a given wattage input. The sensitivity of a Pioneer BS22 is 85 dB (at 1m/2.83V), most likely the Klipsch towers are much more sensitive and yield much more performance from the same amp

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

i just expected the klipsch towers to be as loud and better sounding as the bs22s at the same volume.

Wait. What is the Speaker Channel Level before and after you installed the Klipsch?

If the Speaker Channel Level is now -12.0, then it won't sound as LOUD.

Consumer Audyssey will set the speakers to 75dB, while the commercial theaters are set to 85dB.

So if loudness is the issue, just increase all the Speaker Channel levels up by + 5dB so the levels are 80dB.

 

[bradymartin]

i dont know about the break in issue, seems like its true to my ears but could be the placebo effect.
for 2 days now ive been breaking in the speakers at 50 to 60.

now, the speakers sound pretty awesome, but the tweeter seems underwhelming until i raise volume up to 70, then all hell breaks loose. they sound incredible, and loud. the tweeter opens up and reminds me why i spent the money.

ill do a couple more days of breakin and then see what they sound like at 80, cant imagine going all the way up to 98, dont want to damage them.

loudness is an issue if im listening at lower volumes. around 50 they just dont sound great, but i guess any speaker wouldnt. starting to think these speakers need to be played loud to hear their potential. at lower volumes nothing to brag about, and i should have bought something else

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No speakers will sound awesome at low volume.

Speaker "break-in" is a myth. It's all psychological.

And adding more amps won't make your speakers sound louder if your Speaker Channel levels are set low.

 

[bradymartin]

Wait. What is the Speaker Channel Level before and after you installed the Klipsch?

If the Speaker Channel Level is now -12.0, then it won't sound as LOUD.

Consumer Audyssey will set the speakers to 75dB, while the commercial theaters are set to 85dB.

So if loudness is the issue, just increase all the Speaker Channel levels up by + 5dB so the levels are 80dB.

im sort of new to this stuff, so what you are saying by consumer audyssey (im using a denon x3300), it is setting my speakers to 75db? audyssey set front left and center to approx -10, center channel is like half foot behind the towers, audyssey set it at -8 i think. ill need to check.

so if i increase the speaker channels by 5db, it wont mess up the whole audyssey correction etc.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It won't "mess" up Audyssey.

That's what I do. I increase all my speaker Channel levels by +5.0. This means my speakers' reference Level is set to 80dB, instead of 75dB.

At the movie theaters (IMAX uses Audyssey too), the speakers are all set to 85dB, instead of 75dB.

So increase your speaker levels by 5dB and see how the speakers sound to you.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I had a friend named Dennis (RIP) who also owned Klipsch and Denon. He also complained that he had to crank up the volume. He listened to some people in the forum and bought a 200WPC EMO amp. Same darn problem after hooking up the amp.

Audyssey turned down his speaker Channel levels to -10 like your case.

So I told him to increase his speaker Channel levels and problem solved for free.

 

[bradymartin]

im convinced, thanks for the knowledge. one more question
when i get my hsu mk5 sub friday, after running audyssey ill increase speaker levels by 5db
as i understand it, the sub eq on my denon x3300 will set the sub to 75db

should i leave that alone? im assuming audyssey gold sub eq i can raise the gain on back of the sub to 80db to match the changes i did to the speakers?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

im convinced, thanks for the knowledge. one more question
when i get my hsu mk5 sub friday, after running audyssey ill increase speaker levels by 5db
as i understand it, the sub eq on my denon x3300 will set the sub to 75db

should i leave that alone? im assuming audyssey gold sub eq i can raise the gain on back of the sub to 80db to match the changes i did to the speakers?

I would increase everything by 5dB. If you like your subs "hot", you can increase the subwoofer Channel Level by 6, 7, 8dB, etc. I would keep the gain on back of sub at 50%.

 

[PENG]

im sort of new to this stuff, so what you are saying by consumer audyssey (im using a denon x3300), it is setting my speakers to 75db? audyssey set front left and center to approx -10, center channel is like half foot behind the towers, audyssey set it at -8 i think. ill need to check.

so if i increase the speaker channels by 5db, it wont mess up the whole audyssey correction etc.

You did not mention anything about subwoofer so assuming you only 5 speakers, i.e., L/R/C/SR/SL, if Audyssey set them all in the -8.5 to -10 range, definitely something is not right.

You should run it again and follow instructions to the letter. Also keep in mind you have a perfectly square room, 11X11 right. Audyssey may be reasonably good but it can't fix the inherent issue with a square room.

In your small room, those Klipsch should play able to play to ears damaging loud leve, regardless of it's impedance dips.

 

[PENG]

The specs for the x3300 indicate 105w at 8 ohms, two channels driven. You may have considerable less power where in excess of two channels are driven contemporaneously, especially at high levels.

Which brings me to my main point, the real world sensitivity of the 280s differ substantially from that reported by Klipsch. Also, the 280s spend quite some time at 4 ohms and below. See: http://hometheaterreview.com/klipsch-rp-280fa-tower-speaker-reviewed/?page=2

In essence, despite there relatively high sensitivity, and 8 ohm rating, it appears you need some power to make the 280s shine. I say this based on personal experience, and based on posts I have read where folks replace relatively high sensitivity speakers with the 280s, with the understanding that the 280s are rated even higher in sensitivity, but end up being disappointed as the they don't seem to play as loud as the speakers being replaced.

Sensitivity is not an issue with those speakers in his setup, the reviewer (your link) said "The second chart shows the impedance magnitude and phase of the main section of the RP-280FA. No problems here, and considering the speaker's high sensitivity, you should be able to drive it to satisfying volume with practically any amplifier."

Also note that his room is only 11X11.

 

[bradymartin]

You did not mention anything about subwoofer so assuming you only 5 speakers, i.e., L/R/C/SR/SL, if Audyssey set them all in the -8.5 to -10 range, definitely something is not right.

You should run it again and follow instructions to the letter. Also keep in mind you have a perfectly square room, 11X11 right. Audyssey may be reasonably good but it can't fix the inherent issue with a square room.

In your small room, those Klipsch should play able to play to ears damaging loud leve, regardless of it's impedance dips.

ive ran audyssey twice but never the full 8 measurements because im waiting on a subwoofer for friday.

so its just front left right and center. both times i ran audyssey i just ran the first 4 measurements. also, i kept the mic at the same exact position, never moving it to the next position.

friday when i get my sub ill rerun audyssey with surrounds, sub, front left right and center. this time ill run audyssey correctly with all 8 positions.

the room is small so audyssey just setting the speakers with lesser volume to compensate im assuming.

speakers sound great in direct mode listening to music

 

[Pogre]

ive ran audyssey twice but never the full 8 measurements because im waiting on a subwoofer for friday.

so its just front left right and center. both times i ran audyssey i just ran the first 4 measurements. also, i kept the mic at the same exact position, never moving it to the next position.

friday when i get my sub ill rerun audyssey with surrounds, sub, front left right and center. this time ill run audyssey correctly with all 8 positions.

the room is small so audyssey just setting the speakers with lesser volume to compensate im assuming.

speakers sound great in direct mode listening to music

If you're taking measurements for just one seat, follow the pattern in the instructions on the screen, just do it on and around the seat. Audyssey works best the more measurements you take and moving the mic around gives it a better image of your room overall. I measure for one seat also, but I take the first four on the actual seat (following the pattern) and in the last four around the chair that I sit in, following the pattern on the screen.