Car Audio: 2-ohm vs. 4-ohm speakers

[speakerman39]

After I stopped doing car audio, I moved into servicing boats and when I went to Mastercraft ski boat service training, we discussed the upcoming hybrid cars, which use a 48VDC system that has the starter mounted concentrically with the drive shaft. It requires less current to crank an engine at 48V than at 12V. The accessories were powered by one of the 12V batteries, with some of the early systems using four batteries, in series or a large battery with a 12V tap. This training session was in 1998.

We have had several golf carts and/or ATV's that had like 4-6 12v batteries wired in series. Both of which had a BIG sound system in it......LOL!!!! Wished I had taken some pics! Those were the fun days!


Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

They use(s) proprietary load speakers to prevent people from using something other than theirs as replacements. It's their way of saying "MINE!". It's the same reason ford had that stupid football-shaped head unit in their Taurus- it took a while for Metra, Scosche and American International to make a kit so a standard DIN size head unit could be installed.

Oh yeah the Taurus and the Sables were so much fun to do......LOL!!! We used Best Kits for the most part. However, Best Kits has now been bought by Scosche. Back in the day Escorts were no fun either b/c there were no or very few interfaces to use when by-passing the factory amp(s). Much easier and less time consuming today. That is, with the right interfaces.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[highfigh]

Oh yeah the Taurus and the Sables were so much fun to do......LOL!!! We used Best Kits for the most part. However, Best Kits has now been bought by Scosche. Back in the day Escorts were no fun either b/c there were no or very few interfaces to use when by-passing the factory amp(s). Much easier and less time consuming today. That is, with the right interfaces.


Cheers,

Phil

I remember when AAMP came out with Best kits- IIRC, the company was started by a former Metra employee, but that was over 20 years ago, so I may have that wrong.

 

[highfigh]

We have had several golf carts and/or ATV's that had like 4-6 12v batteries wired in series. Both of which had a BIG sound system in it......LOL!!!! Wished I had taken some pics! Those were the fun days!


Cheers,

Phil

One of my residential customers owns a boat that has twin Diesel engines and it has two fiberglass battery boxes, each with four batteries. He brought it to Milwaukee from Door County (North of Green Bay) so I could work on it since he gave up on the marina's people doing the wiring. He has had to replace two sets of engine sensors, at $3000/set and I suspect it was because something may have been connected incorrectly when the battery switches were on, or connected it incorrectly and then turned the switches on. When I asked what the boat needed aside from re-wiring the transom speakers (they were wired as common ground, which isn't done with high powered head units with floating ground), he said the head unit turned on, but the amp didn't. I went to the boat and measured for DCV at the amp and had nothing when I connected to its + and - power terminals, so I moved the - probe to the chassis of the satellite dish controller and saw that the + was fine, it just wasn't grounded. I went into the engine room and crawled back to the batteries to remove the cover and sure enough, the ground wire was connected to the adjacent battery which, fortunately, isn't connected to the same battery that was used for the amplifier's + cable. I moved it to the correct battery and had music- start to finish might have taken five minutes.

All those years doing car audio sure make working on boats a lot easier.

 

[speakerman39]

I remember when AAMP came out with Best kits- IIRC, the company was started by a former Metra employee, but that was over 20 years ago, so I may have that wrong.

Yes, it was AAMP! Scosche bought them out about 3-4 years ago. You have a good memory.....LOL!!!!!


Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

One of my residential customers owns a boat that has twin Diesel engines and it has two fiberglass battery boxes, each with four batteries. He brought it to Milwaukee from Door County (North of Green Bay) so I could work on it since he gave up on the marina's people doing the wiring. He has had to replace two sets of engine sensors, at $3000/set and I suspect it was because something may have been connected incorrectly when the battery switches were on, or connected it incorrectly and then turned the switches on. When I asked what the boat needed aside from re-wiring the transom speakers (they were wired as common ground, which isn't done with high powered head units with floating ground), he said the head unit turned on, but the amp didn't. I went to the boat and measured for DCV at the amp and had nothing when I connected to its + and - power terminals, so I moved the - probe to the chassis of the satellite dish controller and saw that the + was fine, it just wasn't grounded. I went into the engine room and crawled back to the batteries to remove the cover and sure enough, the ground wire was connected to the adjacent battery which, fortunately, isn't connected to the same battery that was used for the amplifier's + cable. I moved it to the correct battery and had music- start to finish might have taken five minutes.

All those years doing car audio sure make working on boats a lot easier.

Oh yeah we also do a lot of boats. Especially, this time of the year. So may people come in and say I hook up my after market cd player and there is no sound. I am like did you by-pass the factory amp? They are like no it is not coming on. Then, I suggest just running a wire from the amp to the key fob so that the amp will power on when the vehicle starts. Just amazing how many times we had to do something like that which is so simple to do. Now, there are a lot of interfaces that just makes everything so much more simple. Unfortunately, the interfaces can also be expensive.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[highfigh]

Yes, it was AAMP! Scosche bought them out about 3-4 years ago. You have a good memory.....LOL!!!!!


Cheers,

Phil

Calling to place orders at least twice a week for three years will do that.

My shop at the last place did at least $5K/month, and topped out at about $12K with three bays. The top performing shop in the company averaged about $12K/month and the first year I was there, I was just an installer with another full-time installer and the manager installed part-time. He came out and asked if we wanted to guess the number of cars we did that year, so we came up with numbers in the 1200-1500 range. 2900 in one year, which included the head unit + four speakers, at least one amp, designing and building a sub box with carpet or trunk lining and the all day alarm systems with all of the bells and whistles. Sometimes, we had cars for a week, many for multiple days. We also did a 19 point electrical check when they came in and before they left. We were doing head units in most cars in 20 minutes, sometimes less. We also had almost no come-backs and if we had a noise problem, it was rare and we were able to eliminate it quickly. We must have had some weird chemistry because we would ask a technical question while we worked on something else and it would turn into a discussion, without us missing a beat or taking our minds off of what we were doing.

 

[highfigh]

Oh yeah we also do a lot of boats. Especially, this time of the year. So may people come in and say I hook up my after market cd player and there is no sound. I am like did you by-pass the factory amp? They are like no it is not coming on. Then, I suggest just running a wire from the amp to the key fob so that the amp will power on when the vehicle starts. Just amazing how many times we had to do something like that which is so simple to do. Now, there are a lot of interfaces that just makes everything so much more simple. Unfortunately, the interfaces can also be expensive.


Cheers,

Phil

I got my approval to sell Fusion Marine electronics last week- if you haven't seen that stuff, check it out.

 

[speakerman39]

Calling to place orders at least twice a week for three years will do that.

My shop at the last place did at least $5K/month, and topped out at about $12K with three bays. The top performing shop in the company averaged about $12K/month and the first year I was there, I was just an installer with another full-time installer and the manager installed part-time. He came out and asked if we wanted to guess the number of cars we did that year, so we came up with numbers in the 1200-1500 range. 2900 in one year, which included the head unit + four speakers, at least one amp, designing and building a sub box with carpet or trunk lining and the all day alarm systems with all of the bells and whistles. Sometimes, we had cars for a week, many for multiple days. We also did a 19 point electrical check when they came in and before they left. We were doing head units in most cars in 20 minutes, sometimes less. We also had almost no come-backs and if we had a noise problem, it was rare and we were able to eliminate it quickly. We must have had some weird chemistry because we would ask a technical question while we worked on something else and it would turn into a discussion, without us missing a beat or taking our minds off of what we were doing.

We were a much smaller outfit. But, at times things were rolling very well. Custom work was our forte in the day. But, that is a dying breed. Most of it now is just a simple deck and maybe a set of speakers. Every now and then you get a full install. Some Pre-Fab stuff is decent. Most of it is junk inmho. You know you get what you pay for.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

I got my approval to sell Fusion Marine electronics last week- if you haven't seen that stuff, check it out.

But of course, the green stuff.......LOL!!! We carried some Fusion. Never really sold much of it though. We were much bigger into Pioneer and Alpine, as well as, Rockford and Memphis. Mostly Pioneer head units and Alpine amps and speakers. It used to be 85% Rockford until we started to carry Memphis. Clarion is making a slow come back. JVC never sold well at any of our shops. Memphis marine has really taking off here.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[highfigh]

We were a much smaller outfit. But, at times things were rolling very well. Custom work was our forte in the day. But, that is dying breed. Most of it now is just a simple deck and maybe a set of speakers. Every now and then you get a full install. Some Pre-Fab stuff is decent. Most of it is junk inmho. You know you get what you pay for.


Cheers,

Phil

Have the automakers continued to integrate the head units and other systems, to save wire? The first time I saw this was Honda, who routed one of the car's alarm wires to the OEM head unit and if the head unit was removed, the alarm wouldn't work. We would fasten it inside of the console with brackets, so it wouldn't rattle.

The Fusion, with four zones of line out and independent control over each is great in boats that are large enough to benefit from it. I saw the price of the MS-IP700 and was amazed it was so inexpensive, then tried to buy it from the two marine distributors where I had an account- neither of them had anyone smart enough to realize why it was a model they should stock and wanted me to buy cases of four units before they would create a SKU. Then, I saw that idiots were offering it online for about $25 over cost before they even reached the US, which A) is really stupid and B) degrades the value of the item. They have since (recently) started to require potential dealers to apply for the line and to uphold their pricing policies. The fact that it works with NMEA 2000 devices is great, too- no need for the wired remote when it can be controlled by the touch screen on the GPS.

 

[speakerman39]

Have the automakers continued to integrate the head units and other systems, to save wire? The first time I saw this was Honda, who routed one of the car's alarm wires to the OEM head unit and if the head unit was removed, the alarm wouldn't work. We would fasten it inside of the console with brackets, so it wouldn't rattle.

The Fusion, with four zones of line out and independent control over each is great in boats that are large enough to benefit from it. I saw the price of the MS-IP700 and was amazed it was so inexpensive, then tried to buy it from the two marine distributors where I had an account- neither of them had anyone smart enough to realize why it was a model they should stock and wanted me to buy cases of four units before they would create a SKU. Then, I saw that idiots were offering it online for about $25 over cost before they even reached the US, which A) is really stupid and B) degrades the value of the item. They have since (recently) started to require potential dealers to apply for the line and to uphold their pricing policies. The fact that it works with NMEA 2000 devices is great, too- no need for the wired remote when it can be controlled by the touch screen on the GPS.

Well GM was the first and most aggressive when it came to needing peripheral interfaces. Go from a $16-$18 harness to an interface that cost at least $100 and customers are like WTH? Now, some are much more expensive b/c of integrating factory amps, navigation, and /or security systems. Most of the time they are needed to make everything work. Not to mention is saves a lot of time albeit labor. Unfortunately, the trade off is that many are very expensive.

When it comes to protecting MAP pricing nobody is more aggressive at it than Memphis Audio. Their reps are trained to watch their districts very closely. Some have come into the shop and checked our daily tickets. No other reps ever did that. I agree in that selling so cheap above costs does undercut the true value of a given product.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[highfigh]

Well GM was the first and most aggressive when it came to needing peripheral interfaces. Go from a $16-$18 harness to an interface that cost at least $100 and customers are like WTH? Now, some are much more expensive b/c of integrating factory amps, navigation, and /or security systems. Most of the time they are needed to make everything work. Not to mention is saves a lot of time albeit labor. Unfortunately, the trade off is that many are very expensive.

When it comes to protecting MAP pricing nobody is more aggressive at it than Memphis Audio. Their reps are trained to watch their districts very closely. Some have come into the shop and checked our daily tickets. No other reps ever did that. I agree in that selling so cheap above costs does undercut the true value of a given product.


Cheers,

Phil

I would argue that Pioneer has shown themselves to be one of the most aggressive, but that was for home AV- they actually cut off Amazon because of the pricing by some of their sellers.

WRT MAP, that only applies to advertised prices- it can be sold for less, but the manufacturers don't like it if word gets out. They can't explicitly tell us how to price items because that amounts to price fixing. Price maintenance is another area that gets dicey- Bose and a few others (Apple) by making their dealers see that if they drop prices, they end up competing with other Bose or Apple dealers and "They're all in it together".

 

[speakerman39]

I would argue that Pioneer has shown themselves to be one of the most aggressive, but that was for home AV- they actually cut off Amazon because of the pricing by some of their sellers.

In terms of car audio Pioneer is a stickler to MAP pricing. They feel that customers should NOT have to squander over price per se, but put more pressure on their respective dealers to go that extra step to earn someone's business. That is, offer good prices on installations or even the way customers are treated and the overall service experience that they receive. Simply put, we had to be a cut above our competitors.

Memphis is very similar in that regard, but have been known to come into the shop and actually check out tickets for that specific day. No other brands we carried had their reps ever do that. Memphis is also very strict with on-line purchasing. Basically, there aren't any. Just fairly recently Crutchfield has been allowed to sell Memphis online. Prior to, it was practically non-existent. Even so, Memphis would deny any kind of warranty. They sure made a believer out of me.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[highfigh]

In terms of car audio Pioneer is a stickler to MAP pricing. They feel that customers should NOT have to squander over price per se, but put more pressure on their respective dealers to go that extra step to earn someone's business. That is, offer good prices on installations or even they way customers are treated and the overall service experience that they receive. Simply put, we had to be a cut above our competitors.

Memphis is very similar in that regard, but have been known to come into the shop and actually check out tickets for that specific day. No other brands we carried had their reps ever do that. Memphis is also very strict with on-line purchasing. Basically, there aren't any. Just fairly recently Crutchfield has been allowed to sell Memphis online. Prior to, it was practically non-existent. Even so, Memphis would deny any kind of warranty. They sure made a believer out of me.


Cheers,

Phil

Sure beats having to deal with online pricing. So many of those idiots who advertise the lowest prices can't get what they're offering, won't tell anyone about it, take peoples' money and hold it until they're pissed and tell them it's back-ordered and offer something else, saying it's as good or better, at the same price. Then, they end up with something that's NOT as good, doesn't do what they want at the same price they paid months ago. Sometimes, it's a distributor that has a retail outlet or some other BS setup. I'm dealing with that now- B&H Photo was on the 'Unauthorized Dealers' list for a company that makes security cameras, DVRs, NVRs, and accessories. I googled a model number and saw that B&H is offering them for super low prices and when I called about it, they said B&H is buying them from one of the biggest distributors and I told the guy that it's their choice- stop it or dealers AND other distributors will end the arrangement and they'll ultimately be in a much worse place than they are.

 

[speakerman39]

Sure beats having to deal with online pricing. So many of those idiots who advertise the lowest prices can't get what they're offering, won't tell anyone about it, take peoples' money and hold it until they're pissed and tell them it's back-ordered and offer something else, saying it's as good or better, at the same price. Then, they end up with something that's NOT as good, doesn't do what they want at the same price they paid months ago. Sometimes, it's a distributor that has a retail outlet or some other BS setup. I'm dealing with that now- B&H Photo was on the 'Unauthorized Dealers' list for a company that makes security cameras, DVRs, NVRs, and accessories. I googled a model number and saw that B&H is offering them for super low prices and when I called about it, they said B&H is buying them from one of the biggest distributors and I told the guy that it's their choice- stop it or dealers AND other distributors will end the arrangement and they'll ultimately be in a much worse place than they are.

Right and it makes it bad for everyone. Upholding MAP pricing is very hard to do online. I am very selective what I buy online and where I buy it from. Very good point! So glad I am out of it now. Been so burnt out it is not even funny.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[highfigh]

Right and it makes it bad for everyone. Upholding MAP pricing is very hard to do online. I am very selective what I buy online and where I buy it from. Very good point! So glad I am out of it now. Been so burnt out it is not even funny.


Cheers,

Phil

In the late-'70s, we were able to make money without charging full list price- it was an unspoken rule that nobody would dump their prices because nobody wins when that happens- EVERY dealer had a service department and SERVICE was the thing we all used to make ourselves valuable to customers. If someone came in and asked about a brand we didn't sell, and we all tried to offer brands that the others didn't have, we would counter their objections with facts (well, most of us did, anyway) and that required us to sell ourselves as better than the others. Then, mail order came in and it put a stone in our shoe and eventually, a four-store chain from Madison started coming into our market to have big weekend-long sales at State Fair Park, in one of the buildings. They brought stacks and stacks of equipment, created a buying frenzy and lied their butts off, telling people they could get their stuff serviced anywhere. That wasn't true because most of us, being one store operations, were considered 'self-servicing', which means we serviced what we sold and weren't actually required to service items sold by other dealers unless we wanted to. We usually did warranty work if someone had moved to the area, but because they were basically selling at lower prices in order to get the quick money without needing to do most of the service, they were effectively dumping those customers on us. All we could think of saying was "THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" The first time, we noticed that business slowed and the next time, after we had seen that they weren't really offering what they said they were WRT great prices and deals, we told people we could match their prices AND we would service the goods on-site without forcing them to drive 90 miles. AND, we offered our own 5 years parts/3 years labor warranty on a system with an amplifier, speakers or headphones and a source (could be a tape deck or turntable). Our sales volume went through the roof. Then, the owner of the store where I worked got together with the owner of a store that sold mostly video and they decided to have our own sale, IN THE SAME BUILDING. People actually thanked us for doing it, so they didn't have to go to Madison for service. That was 1982 and it was fun to be in the business. Then, the Walkman's popularity grew to an extreme and the photographic stores in larger cities started bringing gray goods into the country and that caused problems for a while before the manufacturers started to put a sticker on the package with the destination E for Europe, U for US, J for Japan, etc and not honoring the warranty for items bound for other countries. If someone had moved to a different country, we could call for approval.

Then, people started to buy only based on price because the internet gave them all of the info they needed, whether they understood it, or not. They bitched about service, but then they did the same when the manufacturers started to demand that dealers and users send everything to them for service/replacement and only authorize regional service centers.

 

[speakerman39]

In the late-'70s, we were able to make money without charging full list price- it was an unspoken rule that nobody would dump their prices because nobody wins when that happens- EVERY dealer had a service department and SERVICE was the thing we all used to make ourselves valuable to customers. If someone came in and asked about a brand we didn't sell, and we all tried to offer brands that the others didn't have, we would counter their objections with facts (well, most of us did, anyway) and that required us to sell ourselves as better than the others. Then, mail order came in and it put a stone in our shoe and eventually, a four-store chain from Madison started coming into our market to have big weekend-long sales at State Fair Park, in one of the buildings. They brought stacks and stacks of equipment, created a buying frenzy and lied their butts off, telling people they could get their stuff serviced anywhere. That wasn't true because most of us, being one store operations, were considered 'self-servicing', which means we serviced what we sold and weren't actually required to service items sold by other dealers unless we wanted to. We usually did warranty work if someone had moved to the area, but because they were basically selling at lower prices in order to get the quick money without needing to do most of the service, they were effectively dumping those customers on us. All we could think of saying was "THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" The first time, we noticed that business slowed and the next time, after we had seen that they weren't really offering what they said they were WRT great prices and deals, we told people we could match their prices AND we would service the goods on-site without forcing them to drive 90 miles. AND, we offered our own 5 years parts/3 years labor warranty on a system with an amplifier, speakers or headphones and a source (could be a tape deck or turntable). Our sales volume went through the roof. Then, the owner of the store where I worked got together with the owner of a store that sold mostly video and they decided to have our own sale, IN THE SAME BUILDING. People actually thanked us for doing it, so they didn't have to go to Madison for service. That was 1982 and it was fun to be in the business. Then, the Walkman's popularity grew to an extreme and the photographic stores in larger cities started bringing gray goods into the country and that caused problems for a while before the manufacturers started to put a sticker on the package with the destination E for Europe, U for US, J for Japan, etc and not honoring the warranty for items bound for other countries. If someone had moved to a different country, we could call for approval.

Then, people started to buy only based on price because the internet gave them all of the info they needed, whether they understood it, or not. They bitched about service, but then they did the same when the manufacturers started to demand that dealers and users send everything to them for service/replacement and only authorize regional service centers.

It is very much the same today. People buy from online retailers then come to our shop for service when something goes wrong. They get upset b/c we charge them for what we do. Likewise, the same can be said when they buy online and come to us to install it. We charged more for installations when product is not bought from us. That really gets customers in an uproar.

Once we install gear we did not sell and they need service, all we can do is check our install. If it is product issues, we explain b/c we did not sell them originally not much we can do for free. Oh boy talking about getting upset. We gladly assisted in these situations but not for free. If it turned out is was our install, then we took care of that. So, I know exactly what you are talking about. Just glad I am out of it for good!


Cheers,

Phil

 

[slipperybidness]

It is very much the same today. People buy from online retailers then come to our shop for service when something goes wrong. They get upset b/c we charge them for what we do. Likewise, the same can be said when they but online and come to use to install it. We charged more for installations when product is not bought from us. That really gets customers in an uproar.

Once we install gear we did not sell and they need service, all we can do is check our install. If it is product issues, we explain b/c we did not sell them originally not much we can do for free. Oh boy talking about getting upset. We gladly assisted in these situations but not for free. If it turned out is was our install, then we took care of that. So, I know exactly what you are talking about. Just glad I am out of it for good!


Cheers,

Phil

As a customer, when I buy online, I realize that I am pretty much "on my own" if something goes wrong. And, of course I don't expect warranty work from a local B&M if I don't buy it from them.

That's the risk/reward of buying online! I save $, but I risk more hassle for that $.

I am also very supportive of local business, but I will purchase online when I see a large price difference. But, if I go into a B&M and spend my time demoing their gear, then I don't go home and purchase online. That just isn't fair to the local business! Now, if I audition many pieces of gear and find many items that I like and maybe consider a future purchase, then I will absolutely buy from that store. But for future purchases, if I know what I want due to previous time and auditions (after I have supported local business), then I may consider online purchases based upon those previous experiences.

Perfect example, I recently purchased a new bike. I have been looking at some excellent bikes online that are not available in my local market, at very similar prices or better prices than I could get locally. However, after spending about an hour in a local bike shop one Saturday morning, I pulled the trigger on a bike order to be delivered and assembled at the bike shop. Only after talking to the guy for about 45 minutes and me specifically asking how long he had been there, that's when he said "I'm the owner". The bottom line is that I bought into that bike shop just as much as I bought into that particular bike! The reason was simple, I liked the vibe there, the owner loves bikes, and I believe that he genuinely wants his customers to enjoy biking, not that he is simply there to put a buck in his pocket.

Furthermore, the particular style of bike that I wanted has only been on the market for a couple of years, and this was the 4th bike shop I had gone into, and none of them yet actually had stock of this style of bike. So, it was becoming clear that this was going to be a special order just about any way I sliced it. That is where the value of a supportive local business really comes into play. But, since I had to order on blind faith, I got a very good deal on this bike!

 

[slipperybidness]

@speakerman39 @highfigh

Somewhat related, and shady as hell! The bottom line is that I would avoid the store-supplied WiFi to avoid this sketchy practice!

https://www.engadget.com/2017/06/15/amazon-online-shopping-control-in-stores/