External DAC. Pick one...

[bullitt5094]

I would like opinions on which of these 3 externals DACs are likely to give the best sound quality. They will be fed lossless FLAC files from my HT PC. I currently own an iFI Micro iDSD. It is doing a very good job, but I am considering either the new OPPO Sonica DAC https://www.oppodigital.com/sonica-dac/sonica-dac-Images.aspx or the Emotiva Stealth DC-1 as possible upgrades. https://emotiva.com/products/dacs/electronics/dacs/stealth-dc-1 or just keep the iFI if the opinion is no appreciable difference would be seen from the other two.
Again, I am less concerned with functionality as I am with sound quality. If there are other suggestions for under $1K, I would love to have input on those.

Current system includes Tekton Double Impacts, Denon 4520ci (about to be upgraded to separates) and home built sub powered by Crown amps.

Thank you in advance for your time and opinions.

 

[lovinthehd]

Likely you'd not tell the difference among any of them....one of the most over-thought (marketed?) subjects in audio.

 

[lovinthehd]

I would like opinions on which of these 3 externals DACs are likely to give the best sound quality. They will be fed lossless FLAC files from my HT PC. I currently own an iFI Micro iDSD. It is doing a very good job, but I am considering either the new OPPO Sonica DAC https://www.oppodigital.com/sonica-dac/sonica-dac-Images.aspx or the Emotiva Stealth DC-1 as possible upgrades. https://emotiva.com/products/dacs/electronics/dacs/stealth-dc-1 or just keep the iFI if the opinion is no appreciable difference would be seen from the other two.
Again, I am less concerned with functionality as I am with sound quality. If there are other suggestions for under $1K, I would love to have input on those.

Current system includes Tekton Double Impacts, Denon 4520ci (about to be upgraded to separates) and home built sub powered by Crown amps.

Thank you in advance for your time and opinions.

Also, I currently run a Denon 4520 and several XLS1500s on my diy subs as well as in a separate-based 2ch setup....an external dac wouldn't even be on my buying radar.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I couldn't find any objective reviews of these speakers, but subjective reviews seem fairly positive.
That said the thing is not all Tektons are great speakers, some overly hyped ultra sensitive towers both measure like crap and sound as much as well. However this remark, is possibly not related to your unusual speakers at all.
The golden rule in achieving best sound is a) speakers b) room treatments c) careful measurements and applying fixes (first physical and then DSP) and only dead last is electronics.

My advice, which likely you'll ignore is if you love your speakers invest in measuring equipment and mini-dsp as well as some carefully used room treatments.

If you open to try new speakers - do. But replacing electronics would not give you better sq.

p.s: You could find lots of OBJECTIVE dac measurement here:
https://archimago.blogspot.com/search?q=dac

tl;dr: This $85 dac is measured as well any other dacs including ones which cost x10 times.

 

[bullitt5094]

As for the Tektons, that I doubt you've even heard, are awesome speakers for the money. I was surprised when they displaced my B&W 804s as mains. But that's why I took a chance on the Tekton 60 day trial. I was convinced in my own listening environment and with my individual measurements. Not internet BS. But thank you for your uninformed opinion based on zero knowledge and parroting internet expert posts from other uninformed non-owners.

"The golden rule in achieving best sound is a) speakers b) room treatments c) careful measurements and applying fixes (first physical and then DSP) and only dead last is electronics."
I have A) Tektons B) A dedicated home theater with treatments developed using C) Careful measurements and applied DSP. So I am now down to Electronics. Thus the very specific question. But thanks for the Home Stereo 101.

And just for the record, the iFI showed a very noticeable improvement over the Denon internal DSP. If you can't hear a difference between the internal Denon DAC vs a good quality external one, you have something else in your signal path that's problematic. I have a feeling after almost 5000 posts you feel you are an expert and aren't going to take that as constructive criticism. And the fact I actually own the components and have tested them, will have no bearing on that stance. But I'm just responding to your comment.

That said, I expect it would be difficult to differentiate between the three I listed. I agree with you there. Just looking for some informed opinions.

Lastly, it would be really nice if posters would read and respond to my actual question. I'm not new into AV. I'm not asking about the Denon DSP. I feel it's inferior from direct, personal testing. I'm not asking for opinions on the Tektons. I'm asking for informed opinions on hardware/electronics that I'm not already fully informed about. I just put the other information out there as a reference.

 

[Pogre]

As for the Tektons, that I doubt you've even heard, are awesome speakers for the money. I was surprised when they displaced my B&W 804s as mains. But that's why I took a chance on the Tekton 60 day trial. I was convinced in my own listening environment and with my individual measurements. Not internet BS. But thank you for your uninformed opinion based on zero knowledge and parroting internet expert posts from other uninformed non-owners.

"The golden rule in achieving best sound is a) speakers b) room treatments c) careful measurements and applying fixes (first physical and then DSP) and only dead last is electronics."
I have A) Tektons B) A dedicated home theater with treatments developed using C) Careful measurements and applied DSP. So I am now down to Electronics. Thus the very specific question. But thanks for the Home Stereo 101.

And just for the record, the iFI showed a very noticeable improvement over the Denon internal DSP. If you can't hear a difference between the internal Denon DAC vs a good quality external one, you have something else in your signal path that's problematic. I have a feeling after almost 5000 posts you feel you are an expert and aren't going to take that as constructive criticism. And the fact I actually own the components and have tested them, will have no bearing on that stance. But I'm just responding to your comment.

That said, I expect it would be difficult to differentiate between the three I listed. I agree with you there. Just looking for some informed opinions.

Lastly, it would be really nice if posters would read and respond to my actual question. I'm not new into AV. I'm not asking about the Denon DSP. I feel it's inferior from direct, personal testing. I'm not asking for opinions on the Tektons. I'm asking for informed opinions on hardware/electronics that I'm not already fully informed about. I just put the other information out there as a reference.

Boy, you're gonna get lots of help with that attitude...

 

[bullitt5094]

You're correct. I withdraw my request and I'll move along to other sources. Thanks for your time.

 

[PENG]

I would like opinions on which of these 3 externals DACs are likely to give the best sound quality. They will be fed lossless FLAC files from my HT PC. I currently own an iFI Micro iDSD. It is doing a very good job, but I am considering either the new OPPO Sonica DAC https://www.oppodigital.com/sonica-dac/sonica-dac-Images.aspx or the Emotiva Stealth DC-1 as possible upgrades. https://emotiva.com/products/dacs/electronics/dacs/stealth-dc-1 or just keep the iFI if the opinion is no appreciable difference would be seen from the other two.
Again, I am less concerned with functionality as I am with sound quality. If there are other suggestions for under $1K, I would love to have input on those.

Current system includes Tekton Double Impacts, Denon 4520ci (about to be upgraded to separates) and home built sub powered by Crown amps.

Thank you in advance for your time and opinions.

I have never heard any Emo DAC, between the Oppo and the iFI Micro iDSD in a properly done AB test you likely won't hear a difference, so if it is not for features I think you can just keep the iFI. There aren't that many DACs out there that can beat the iDSD in specs. The iDSD apparently has the DSD1792 chip, that is still TI/BB's flagship.

It is difficult to set up proper comparison listening tests for the internal DAC of a prepro or AVR and an external one, but if you can hear a clear difference between the internal DAC of the 4520 and the iFI in a properly conducted AB comparison test then good for you. I would be interested to know how to a real apple to apple test though.

I have tried quite a few external DACs, amps and pramps, and still found the quality of the media source is by far the determining factor, given that the speakers and the room are not the weak link.

 

[bullitt5094]

Thanks for your reply Peng. I agree and I'm likely just to stay with the iFI. And to add to the conversation. I test my new equipment with my younger Wife and 28 year old daughter that have better hearing than most members on this forum. They never know what the test includes unless is obvious. Like speakers. But they still don't know what's playing. I blind them the best I can. They both love my system as-is and are biased against any changes. So when they both say the new equipment sounds better than the old equipment, I am pretty sure it does. And I generally set-up the test levels where the new equipment is a close, but lower level to the old equipment. Again biasing against the new product. I'm not sure how I could be more fair on the evaluations in my own environment. Which is really all that counts in my little world.
Again, thanks for everyone's time.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

As for other Tektons I've mentioned earlier, If you really want, I could find the measurements done by 3rd party, but not specifically your model, but I think you've missed that part, I guess due to lack of basic english reading comprehension.
I've been doing this long enough to create at the least somewhat educated opinion based on such graphs.
Your current speakers very unusual twitter array is more than likely to create diffractions and there's near zero chance someone actually modeled this, likely to be designed by ear.

I really feel compelled to mention one detail about iFi audio, company I've never heard before today and my opinion is on zero knowledge of the company, HOWEVER I've noticed this little piece of design on their site.

That "turbo" font, slant and overall design looks mighty familiar. I wonder where did I see it... hmmm...
Maybe here:?

p.s: About this part:

Careful measurements and applied DSP.

I'm calling a BS police. I doubt you've done anything except Auto-Room correction. You surely didn't mention any DSP in your audio path, except Denon avr.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The Oppo looks like exactly what I've been looking for (a network streamer / DAC / balanced pre-amp all-in-one). Emotiva still makes me nervous after a less than satisfying experience. I'm ordering the Oppo.

 

[PENG]

The Oppo looks like exactly what I've been looking for (a network streamer / DAC / balanced pre-amp all-in-one). Emotiva still makes me nervous after a less than satisfying experience. I'm ordering the Oppo.

I have already ordered mine weeks ago, just haven't picked it up yet.

 

[2channel lover]

I would like opinions on which of these 3 externals DACs are likely to give the best sound quality. They will be fed lossless FLAC files from my HT PC. I currently own an iFI Micro iDSD. It is doing a very good job, but I am considering either the new OPPO Sonica DAC https://www.oppodigital.com/sonica-dac/sonica-dac-Images.aspx or the Emotiva Stealth DC-1 as possible upgrades. https://emotiva.com/products/dacs/electronics/dacs/stealth-dc-1 or just keep the iFI if the opinion is no appreciable difference would be seen from the other two.
Again, I am less concerned with functionality as I am with sound quality. If there are other suggestions for under $1K, I would love to have input on those.

Current system includes Tekton Double Impacts, Denon 4520ci (about to be upgraded to separates) and home built sub powered by Crown amps.

Thank you in advance for your time and opinions.

Having read you post and several responses I think LovintheHD is right.

I'm kind of reading the tea leaves here a bit. You upgraded you PC DAC with your IFI Micro. I did something similar with my HiFiman headphones. If you're like me, you noticed a tangible improvement in SQ...now maybe you're wanting to take that next step with another DAC upgrade.

From my experience, you're not going to get another sizeable jump in performance. Even though those DACs you mentioned may be better than what you have, because the DAC you have now is pretty good, the appreciable gain is going to be minimal.

I know next to nothing about your Tektons, but I know quite a bit about the 804s...if you've moved the 804s in favor of the Tektons to your mains...you're in a pretty good place with your music. I would stay put if I were you on the DAC.

Edited to note it was LovintheHD I thought was right about the difference being minor.

 

[MrBoat]

How can you tell exactly how good a receiver's DAC is, in anything but direct mode, comparatively? Isn't the signal being further colored by the receiver's tone controls? Pardon me if this is irrelevant, but something doesn't smell right here.

 

[lovinthehd]

How can you tell exactly how good a receiver's DAC is, in anything but direct mode, comparatively? Isn't the signal being further colored by the receiver's tone controls? Pardon me if this is irrelevant, but something doesn't smell right here.

Because DAC chip differences are minute as usually are their implementation. You can look at specs but most are inaudible differences. Using tone controls is like using eq; not really relevant to the DAC in use.

 

[PENG]

Thanks for your reply Peng. I agree and I'm likely just to stay with the iFI. And to add to the conversation. I test my new equipment with my younger Wife and 28 year old daughter that have better hearing than most members on this forum. They never know what the test includes unless is obvious. Like speakers. But they still don't know what's playing. I blind them the best I can. They both love my system as-is and are biased against any changes. So when they both say the new equipment sounds better than the old equipment, I am pretty sure it does. And I generally set-up the test levels where the new equipment is a close, but lower level to the old equipment. Again biasing against the new product. I'm not sure how I could be more fair on the evaluations in my own environment. Which is really all that counts in my little world.
Again, thanks for everyone's time.

I appreciate your response but my question remains, how do
you do a real apple to apple comparison he internal pcm1795 dac with an external one? I mean the physical set up part. I have done many AB comparisons of external ones but I have yet to find a good valid and easy way to compare the one in the prepro with an external one.

 

[MrBoat]

Because DAC chip differences are minute as usually are their implementation. You can look at specs but most are inaudible differences. Using tone controls is like using eq; not really relevant to the DAC in use.

Right, with the regard to the inaudible. That's what I have been told by people who actually build/prototype this stuff for major brands and brands we haven't even heard of yet. That's how I found out that the DAC in my ancient Denon is still viable today and still being used on newer products. The DAC is not the hurdle that needs to be jumped anymore.

An audibly superior DAC would be the easiest, and likely the least expensive way to improve overall SQ of at least the top brands flagship models, if such a thing existed.

It was this: "If you can't hear a difference between the internal Denon DAC vs a good quality external one, you have something else in your signal path that's problematic." How does one determine the audible difference is the DAC? Bear with me. I'm new to all this tech stuff. Isn't the rest of the receiver's tone control that's what's in the signal path?

 

[MrBoat]

As for other Tektons I've mentioned earlier, If you really want, I could find the measurements done by 3rd party, but not specifically your model, but I think you've missed that part, I guess due to lack of basic english reading comprehension.
I've been doing this long enough to create at the least somewhat educated opinion based on such graphs.
Your current speakers very unusual twitter array is more than likely to create diffractions and there's near zero chance someone actually modeled this, likely to be designed by ear.

I really feel compelled to mention one detail about iFi audio, company I've never heard before today and my opinion is on zero knowledge of the company, HOWEVER I've noticed this little piece of design on their site.

That "turbo" font, slant and overall design looks mighty familiar. I wonder where did I see it... hmmm...
Maybe here:?

p.s: About this part:

I'm calling a BS police. I doubt you've done anything except Auto-Room correction. You surely didn't mention any DSP in your audio path, except Denon avr.

This was a good catch. That would do it for me.

 

[shadyJ]

Having read you post and several responses I think ShadyJ is right.

Uh I didn't contribute anything to this discussion but I am glad at least somebody thinks I am right about something.

 

[PENG]

Right, with the regard to the inaudible. That's what I have been told by people who actually build/prototype this stuff for major brands and brands we haven't even heard of yet. That's how I found out that the DAC in my ancient Denon is still viable today and still being used on newer products. The DAC is not the hurdle that needs to be jumped anymore.

An audibly superior DAC would be the easiest, and likely the least expensive way to improve overall SQ of at least the top brands flagship models, if such a thing existed.

It was this: "If you can't hear a difference between the internal Denon DAC vs a good quality external one, you have something else in your signal path that's problematic." How does one determine the audible difference is the DAC? Bear with me. I'm new to all this tech stuff. Isn't the rest of the receiver's tone control that's what's in the signal path?

Pure direct should bypass any tone controls. I do know how to hook things up to compare the internal DAC to an external one, but it won't be simple or a truly apple to apple comparison. I also don't believe the DACs will be the weak link.