Best Floorstanding? Ascend Towers vs CANTON vs KEF, etc?

[everettT]

I'm such a music head that I was tempted to leave off the ctr channel and just go with the S3E...trust me I was.

In the end, this will be a music/HT space...I'm not that enamored with HT, I mostly watch sports on TV, but the wife will come up to the loft sometimes for movies so I at least wanted to do HT right. So, I am slated to buy a pair of subs maybe by Fri...HSU ULS15 mk2 is #1 on my list right now.

When I mentioned to Jim Salk about the subs...he said save the $2k and go with the S3A.

With the wide dispersion, you probably run them as a phantom center

 

[2channel lover]

With the wide dispersion, you probably run them as a phantom center

C'mon man...you know I'm on the edge!

Serious, he (Jim Salk) mentioned running a phantom ctr as an option if I wanted to wait on the new ctr he's working on. It's not going to have the Accuton mid so I decided to go with the SCSC.

Sounds like you were there too. The few people that I've chatted with that heard the S3A and S3E at AXPONA back in APR say the E is definitely a nicer speaker, but the bigger difference was the low end. Dennis Murphy was noted to say the mid is slightly better on the E in his opinion but the bottom is what really separates them and Jim echoed that feeling.

He really liked the S3A w/ the subs...FWIW I bought a pair of HSU VTF3 mk5 today...Memorial Day sale.

Bringing it back to the OP.

Obviously, I agree 100% on the Song3...I'm not sure what the new price will be tomorrow, but it might stay under $3k.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

C'mon man...you know I'm on the edge!

Serious, he (Jim Salk) mentioned running a phantom ctr as an option if I wanted to wait on the new ctr he's working on. It's not going to have the Accuton mid so I decided to go with the SCSC.

Sounds like you were there too. The few people that I've chatted with that heard the S3A and S3E at AXPONA back in APR say the E is definitely a nicer speaker, but the bigger difference was the low end. Dennis Murphy was noted to say the mid is slightly better on the E in his opinion but the bottom is what really separates them and Jim echoed that feeling.

He really liked the S3A w/ the subs...FWIW I bought a pair of HSU VTF3 mk5 today...Memorial Day sale.

Bringing it back to the OP.

Obviously, I agree 100% on the Song3...I'm not sure what the new price will be tomorrow, but it might stay under $3k.

While it's certainly true that I liked the Encore better than the Accuton version at Axpona, the same wasn't really true when I listened to them in my living room. I think I know what the issue was at Axpona, although that's ancient history and not worth going into here. The main difference is in bass extension, as has been noted.

 

[2channel lover]

While it's certainly true that I liked the Encore better than the Accuton version at Axpona, the same wasn't really true when I listened to them in my living room. I think I know what the issue was at Axpona, although that's ancient history and not worth going into here. The main difference is in bass extension, as has been noted.

Thanks for cleaning that up for me.That (bass extension) lines up with why Jim suggested the S3A if I was going with subs.

In any event, I'm looking forward to getting them in a few months time.

 

[Swerd]

In any event, I'm looking forward to getting them in a few months time.

I'm sure that time will just fly by .

A necessary part of being a Salk owner is lending support to people who suffer through the wait between ordering and receiving their speakers. So sound-off all you want. I've been there myself before, and know what it's like first hand. Trust me, it's really worth the wait .

I wonder how @Bucknekked is doing? He ordered SongTowers earlier this spring. He might be getting them soon.

@2channel lover, I think you mentioned your present B&W 804 speakers that are about 20 years old. You mentioned wondering whether you should sell them or pass them off to your son. I was in the same boat with my 10-year-old SongTowers. Jim Salk suggested I initially ask $1600 if I want to sell them. But before I ever got their replacements, my son (age 32) asked if I would give them to him. I did. In the past month, I finally got them to him and he is now going through the same delighted initiation as I first went through in 2007. He recently said "these speakers definitely have some magic going on".

My advice: Keep the B&Ws long enough to compare them side-by-side with your new Song3-As. Then give them to your son.

 

[Bucknekked]

I'm sure that time will just fly by .

A necessary part of being a Salk owner is lending support to people who suffer through the wait between ordering and receiving their speakers. So sound-off all you want. I've been there myself before, and know what it's like first hand. Trust me, it's really worth the wait .

I wonder how @Bucknekked is doing? He ordered SongTowers earlier this spring. He might be getting them soon.

swerd
You are correct: I am in the throws of waiting a long, long, time. I queried Jim Salk earlier in May and he thought end of May was possible but made no promises. The end of May has come and gone. I am anxious to see my speakers but relatively helpless at this point. The progress indicator hasn't moved in a number of weeks. I ordered on Feb 2nd. Its June 2nd (or close enough). That's 4 months.

 

[Tankman]

Of course I know that the point of emission for bass frequencies is rarely ideal as those of upper frequencies. I have a lots of different measurements of subwoofer response from placements all over my room. The thing is, most people rarely have the luxury of placing the subs where they will get the best response. Corner placement can boost lower frequencies but how many instances have you seen where a single sub in a corner gets a great response?

So yeah, you do not get the optimal response by using subs as speaker stands, but you do get to have a much higher crossover frequency without risking localization, and you get a speaker stand that will absolutely not tip over. I would seriously bet that two subwoofers as speaker stands will get a better response than one sub in a corner in almost any normal room. Using subs in opposite sides of the room for a more "precise feel"? Nonsense. The only way to get accurate playback from a subwoofer in room is to measure and then place correspondingly. It is trial and error, and there is no really successful rule of thumb regarding placement that is a shortcut from that. And yes I have read the Harman papers, Geddes papers, etc on the subject. It is good stuff but not very meaningful for anyone who does not measure their response.

Umm. no pun intended, but putting bookshelf speakers on top of a sub? You really feel that is a viable option? Again no pun intended, what would keep the bookshelf speaker from sliding, moving around on the subwoofer not to mention all the speaker cabinet noise from vibrations of the two? I guess if it is done up with velcro, or some other type of insulation between the two could help with vibration noise. I just don't believe in a set up its a viable option in a home set up. I have seen just that in home set ups with others you mentioned in your post. To me not a good way to go with bookshelf speakers...

Mike

 

[everettT]

I've run Subs as stereo Subs with bookshelves on top. Used a berhinger dcx2596 for proper integration. The subs were dual opposed so no vibrations or walking.

Umm. no pun intended, but putting bookshelf speakers on top of a sub? You really feel that is a viable option? Again no pun intended, what would keep the bookshelf speaker from sliding, moving around on the subwoofer not to mention all the speaker cabinet noise from vibrations of the two? I guess if it is done up with velcro, or some other type of insulation between the two could help with vibration noise. I just don't believe in a set up its a viable option in a home set up. I have seen just that in home set ups with others you mentioned in your post. To me not a good way to go with bookshelf speakers...

Mike

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Umm. no pun intended, but putting bookshelf speakers on top of a sub? You really feel that is a viable option? Again no pun intended, what would keep the bookshelf speaker from sliding, moving around on the subwoofer not to mention all the speaker cabinet noise from vibrations of the two? I guess if it is done up with velcro, or some other type of insulation between the two could help with vibration noise. I just don't believe in a set up its a viable option in a home set up. I have seen just that you mentioned in your post. To me not a good way to go with bookshelf speakers...

Mike

Have you seen pictures of the Salk Soundscape 12 and Philharmonic 3 towers?

Each tower is made up of 2 actual separate cabinets. The Bottom cabinet houses the bass/woofers and the Top cabinet houses the tweeters/midrange. The Top Cabinet sits ON TOP of the bottom cabinet just like what ShadyJ is talking about. The 2 separate cabinets are separated by soft isolation cushions between them.

When I had the KEF 201/2 bookshelf and Funk 18.0 subs, I placed the KEF bookshelf atop a metal speaker stand that sits on top of the Funk subwoofer. I also used soft isolation cushions below and on top of the speaker stands.

Have you seen Gene's system?

Well, in this case, the little bookshelf there is hung over the bass cabinet.

Towers are essentially bookshelf atop the bass cabinet.

 

[Tankman]

yes i have seen aton still not a way I would go.. separate and apart with speakers are the way I like to go...its the main reason I sold off my LSi-15,s..I did not like the sub woofer in the lower cabinet of them speakers..Just Not for me..Could really careless about "stacked" speakers..Polk Audio had that design years back.. sounded great just not for me.. there's that subjective thing again "essentially"..same thing as Damping Factor..lo..Again..No pun intended.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Have you seen pictures of the Salk Soundscape 12 and Philharmonic 3 towers?


Towers are essentially bookshelf atop the bass cabinet.

Exactly. And by separating the woofer section from the upper mid-tweet cabinet, and isolating them with sorbothane feet, you can greatly reduce the bass vibrations reaching the other cabinet.
So, compared with a conventional tower, the stacking of two modules is a superior means of isolating the midrange and tweeter.

 

[everettT]

I see that there are a lot of "audiophiles" hanging out in here. Spending tons of money on audio gear must be making up short comings somewhere else?..lolo

I think we all compromise to get the very best out of our situation. I've run multiple subs of different brands using Dr. Geddes method with decent success, albeit hard to set up.

 

[everettT]

Earl Geddes is an acoustic engineer, along the same lines Floyd Toole. I prefer most of tools theory and Sean Olive, but all have proven audio theory.

Umm..Dr.Geddes..is he a specialist?..umm..like them orthopedic surgeons?..You think you could get me an appointment with him? Cause that last specialist give me a knee implant and now it's causing too much harmonic distortion between my upper and lower joints..and No before you think I am mistaken about his qualifications he did graduate at the top 6% of his Dapper Dan Factor at dat school...umm..think they call that school Death Valley? But don't get me to lying..cause I have heard they to spend a lot of money at that LSU school to on a lot of shortcomings. I should know cause most of them with dem diploma papers can't even tell the the difference between a hooker and a escort girls...umm..all that education I just don't know me.(●●).

 

[Swerd]

swerd
You are correct: I am in the throws of waiting a long, long, time. I queried Jim Salk earlier in May and he thought end of May was possible but made no promises. The end of May has come and gone. I am anxious to see my speakers but relatively helpless at this point. The progress indicator hasn't moved in a number of weeks. I ordered on Feb 2nd. Its June 2nd (or close enough). That's 4 months.

Hang in there. They will come, and you will be glad. But just not as soon as you had hoped.

 

[Tankman]

CHANE SPEAKERS, has done more in a short time with speaker technology and build quality than most marketers in here could ever dream of. Post a photo of speakers..umm maybe I will jump on the wagoner's bandwagon and post up my New (CHANE L7's )Tower Speakers when they come in with my SVS entry level sub.

 

[2channel lover]

I'm sure that time will just fly by .

A necessary part of being a Salk owner is lending support to people who suffer through the wait between ordering and receiving their speakers. So sound-off all you want. I've been there myself before, and know what it's like first hand. Trust me, it's really worth the wait .

I wonder how @Bucknekked is doing? He ordered SongTowers earlier this spring. He might be getting them soon.

@2channel lover, I think you mentioned your present B&W 804 speakers that are about 20 years old. You mentioned wondering whether you should sell them or pass them off to your son. I was in the same boat with my 10-year-old SongTowers. Jim Salk suggested I initially ask $1600 if I want to sell them. But before I ever got their replacements, my son (age 32) asked if I would give them to him. I did. In the past month, I finally got them to him and he is now going through the same delighted initiation as I first went through in 2007. He recently said "these speakers definitely have some magic going on".

My advice: Keep the B&Ws long enough to compare them side-by-side with your new Song3-As. Then give them to your son.

Thanks!

The wait...I think the initial euphoria after the order was placed is pretty strong because I was salivating the day after the order. If it were 2-3 weeks it would probably be a lot more agonizing...3 months is a good ways out. It's prime golf (my other vice) season, plus I'm foolishly starting a rather large landscaping project, building a dry creek bed about 600 sf . Plenty to occupy myself for a while. I'm sure as we get into late JUL/AUG I'll be at full attention, checking progress, etc.

A couple more things to buy still also that have some of my attention...just got subs yesterday so most of the heavy spending is done (thankfully). Still tinkering around with the source, audio rack.

Your gift...great story.

B&Ws...yeah...one of my co-workers wants to buy them and he's willing to wait until my new ones come in...but most likely I'll give them to my son...he's 25, still at home for now. He's got a computer based music system so the speakers would be great for him to start out.

 

[KEW]

My advice: Keep the B&Ws long enough to compare them side-by-side with your new Song3-As.

Bears repeating!
It always amazes me how many people get rid of their old speakers before the new ones arrive.
IME, there is absolutely no substitute for comparing speakers level matched in the same room!
You should make yourself aware, in no uncertain terms of whatever improvements (and liabilities) the new speakers have vs the old.
Also, it is valuable to this community to hear subjective opinions on how speakers compare. I have not heard the 804's but have heard some from the B&W 800 series and think you will be wholly delighted with your new ones (assuming you go with Salk or similar). However, will the new ones do everything better? That is a different question, but worth knowing!

 

[Pogre]

Bears repeating!
It always amazes me how many people get rid of their old speakers before the new ones arrive.
IME, there is absolutely no substitute for comparing speakers level matched in the same room!
You should make yourself aware, in no uncertain terms of whatever improvements (and liabilities) the new speakers have vs the old.
Also, it is valuable to this community to hear subjective opinions on how speakers compare. I have not heard the 804's but have heard some from the B&W 800 series and think you will be wholly delighted with your new ones (assuming you go with Salk or similar). However, will the new ones do everything better? That is a different question, but worth knowing!

I think this is great advice. Some of us don't think like that, but it is a great way to "see for yourself". Hmm... my son still has the Deftech SM55's...

 

[Pogre]

swerd
You are correct: I am in the throws of waiting a long, long, time. I queried Jim Salk earlier in May and he thought end of May was possible but made no promises. The end of May has come and gone. I am anxious to see my speakers but relatively helpless at this point. The progress indicator hasn't moved in a number of weeks. I ordered on Feb 2nd. Its June 2nd (or close enough). That's 4 months.

Buck, I feel ya man. I get squirmy after a week or 2. 4 months might actually tip me over the edge! Tell you what though, I think I could keep myself consoled for what you're getting. You're going to have some of the best speakers made when it's all said and done. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't just a little envious.

 

[shadyJ]

Have you seen pictures of the Salk Soundscape 12 and Philharmonic 3 towers?

Each tower is made up of 2 actual separate cabinets. The Bottom cabinet houses the bass/woofers and the Top cabinet houses the tweeters/midrange. The Top Cabinet sits ON TOP of the bottom cabinet just like what ShadyJ is talking about. The 2 separate cabinets are separated by soft isolation cushions between them.

When I had the KEF 201/2 bookshelf and Funk 18.0 subs, I placed the KEF bookshelf atop a metal speaker stand that sits on top of the Funk subwoofer. I also used soft isolation cushions below and on top of the speaker stands.

Have you seen Gene's system?

Well, in this case, the little bookshelf there is hung over the bass cabinet.

Towers are essentially bookshelf atop the bass cabinet.

A lot of towers are, but not all. It depends on the range that the drivers are playing. For example, if its a two way tower speaker, that certainly isn't using subwoofer drivers to power the bass section. Some towers just aren't using the bass drivers as 'subwoofers'. On the other hand, many high-end speakers certainly are essentially just a bookshelf stacked on subs, like the B&W 800 series.

The only reason why you wouldn't want to stack a bookshelf speaker on a sub is, as has been said, it probably isn't the optimal location for subwoofer placement in the room. But such a configuration does have its advantages.