Best Floorstanding? Ascend Towers vs CANTON vs KEF, etc?

[bizmord]

Hi guys,

I am finally moving into my new house and will have more freedom with sound treating, and overall sound system. The home theater / kids playroom is 18 ft by 12 ft.

I currently use Ascend Sierra-1 NRT bookshelf speakers as my main L/C/R and Ascend HTM-200 as rear bookshelves. For a sub I use Rythmic 12". So, before I go ahead and spend another $2,000 on floorstanding speakers, I am trying to see if I should get the Ascend Sierra Towers OR go for something like
CANTON Vento 890.2 8" or CANTON Vento 890DC 8" or some KEF models that some may argue are better for Mohies than what Sierra Tower can do? So ultimately I'd have a 7.1 system with Sierra-1 becoming my rear and HTM-200 becoming side speakers.

Why I am thinking about other floorstanding speakers and not just Ascend?

I will use this system 70% movies/shows and 30% music listening. I am concerned that Ascend Sierra Towers are more suited for music AND they are maybe a bit more fragile and easier to flip over? (remember sometimes I'll have my kids playing around in that room and that's one of the reasons I want to upgrade to floorstanding rather than bookshelves on stands.

What do you guys think? Stick with Ascend? or go for other models more suited for Home Theater and a bit heavier/stable?

 

[Tankman]

First best wishes with the move.
As for the speakers All three are very nice picks it would be a tough decision for me to choose between the three. Maybe one of the ole timers will jump in cause especially speakers that's the one aspect in this hobby that I lack a bunch of knowledge in. Meaning high-end speakers or entry level audiophile speakers. I have had many different speaker brands on my journey with this Hobby. Over 40 years with this hobby and I am still learning. If I ever decide to take the plunge and spend some money on some nice high-end speakers Legacys are at the top of my list. Just saying but I have research the three brands your talking about again all three are good choices. Best of luck and happy hunting!

Mike

 

[shadyJ]

Hi guys,

I am finally moving into my new house and will have more freedom with sound treating, and overall sound system. The home theater / kids playroom is 18 ft by 12 ft.

I currently use Ascend Sierra-1 NRT bookshelf speakers as my main L/C/R and Ascend HTM-200 as rear bookshelves. For a sub I use Rythmic 12". So, before I go ahead and spend another $2,000 on floorstanding speakers, I am trying to see if I should get the Ascend Sierra Towers OR go for something like
CANTON Vento 890.2 8" or CANTON Vento 890DC 8" or some KEF models that some may argue are better for Mohies than what Sierra Tower can do? So ultimately I'd have a 7.1 system with Sierra-1 becoming my rear and HTM-200 becoming side speakers.

Why I am thinking about other floorstanding speakers and not just Ascend?

I will use this system 70% movies/shows and 30% music listening. I am concerned that Ascend Sierra Towers are more suited for music AND they are maybe a bit more fragile and easier to flip over? (remember sometimes I'll have my kids playing around in that room and that's one of the reasons I want to upgrade to floorstanding rather than bookshelves on stands.

What do you guys think? Stick with Ascend? or go for other models more suited for Home Theater and a bit heavier/stable?

My advice is to stick with the Ascend Sierra bookshelf speakers and get a pair of good sized subwoofers to place them on as speaker stands. Sell your existing sub, it is not big enough. Look for subs that, if you set your bookshelf speakers on top of them, the tweeter will be at ear level. Your kids can knock over a bookshelf speaker stand and maybe a tower speaker, but they will never knock over a hefty subwoofer. As a bonus, you can run the subs at a much higher crossover point without worrying about localization. You also get way more dynamic range in bass, from both your subs and your main speakers, and less distortion from your speakers. Consider that many tower speakers are essentially just bookshelf speakers built on top of a weak subwoofer in design.

 

[bizmord]

My advice is to stick with the Ascend Sierra bookshelf speakers and get a pair of good sized subwoofers to place them on as speaker stands. Sell your existing sub, it is not big enough. Look for subs that, if you set your bookshelf speakers on top of them, the tweeter will be at ear level. Your kids can knock over a bookshelf speaker stand and maybe a tower speaker, but they will never knock over a hefty subwoofer. As a bonus, you can run the subs at a much higher crossover point without worrying about localization. You also get way more dynamic range in bass, from both your subs and your main speakers, and less distortion from your speakers. Consider that many tower speakers are essentially just bookshelf speakers built on top of a weak subwoofer in design.

I am sorry my man but that's a horrible advice. Why would I sell a great sub? Why would I buy two others and place them where my speakers are. The whole point of 2 subs is ability to place them at possibly opposite sides of the room to achiever more precise feel. Instead you're suggesting for me to now use my 2 subs in place where it may not be the most optimal. I appreciate the effort but don't agree.

 

[Tankman]

I am sorry my man but that's a horrible advice. Why would I sell a great sub? Why would I buy two others and place them where my speakers are. The whole point of 2 subs is ability to place them at possibly opposite sides of the room to achiever more precise feel. Instead you're suggesting for me to now use my 2 subs in place where it may not be the most optimal. I appreciate the effort but don't agree.

I surely wouldn't use a Sub as a speaker stand? I am still trying to get pass that image in my mind or as a matter of fact putting anything on top of a sub. I know audio can be a very subjective subject. I have seen some set-ups that logic just couldn't explain. No pun intended. @bizmord: trying to understand the logic in his post myself..

Mike

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Speakers are super subjective. Do you like the Sierra's currently? If you do, I'd be inclined to stay with them. The Sierra towers are beautiful to look at. Also, IMO if you switch L/R you'll have a harder time timber matching. Some will say it's not a big deal but I think it is. Even front to back. The new KEF 950's have my interest personally, but if you like the ascends I'd stay there. I prefer towers because they're usually more sensitive, easier to drive, have more dynamics with bigger/more drivers and since they normally roll off lower, can be easier to integrate with some subwoofers/rooms. Which Rythmik do you have? You probably thought of it, but a second one would be good too. I'm also surprised that shady recommended the subs as stands. Saw this in another thread recently and if memory serves , we've agreed on more than one occasion that powered towers(with "subs" built in) benefit from the flexibility(and capabilities) of outboard subs. This seems curious. Also, if a speaker is great with music, it will be for movies too. Speakers aren't generally focused on HT vs music imo, unless the company has a bass ackward marketing dept. movie soundtracks do contain a lot of bombastic dynamics, but also a great deal of subtlety and nuance. Wouldn't worry about stability/weight personally either. Just teach the kids about respecting things. I have 7 neices, and 3 kids, not once have they messed up my speakers or gear.

 

[shadyJ]

Speakers are super subjective. Do you like the Sierra's currently? If you do, I'd be inclined to stay with them. The Sierra towers are beautiful to look at. Also, IMO if you switch L/R you'll have a harder time timber matching. Some will say it's not a big deal but I think it is. Even front to back. The new KEF 950's have my interest personally, but if you like the ascends I'd stay there. I prefer towers because they're usually more sensitive, easier to drive, have more dynamics with bigger/more drivers and since they normally roll off lower, can be easier to integrate with some subwoofers/rooms. Which Rythmik do you have? You probably thought of it, but a second one would be good too. I'm also surprised that shady recommended the subs as stands. Saw this in another thread recently and if memory serves , we've agreed on more than one occasion that powered towers(with "subs" built in) benefit from the flexibility(and capabilities) of outboard subs. This seems curious. Also, if a speaker is great with music, it will be for movies too. Speakers aren't generally focused on HT vs music imo, unless the company has a bass ackward marketing dept. movie soundtracks do contain a lot of bombastic dynamics, but also a great deal of subtlety and nuance. Wouldn't worry about stability/weight personally either. Just teach the kids about respecting things. I have 7 neices, and 3 kids, not once have they messed up my speakers or gear.

Of course I know that the point of emission for bass frequencies is rarely ideal as those of upper frequencies. I have a lots of different measurements of subwoofer response from placements all over my room. The thing is, most people rarely have the luxury of placing the subs where they will get the best response. Corner placement can boost lower frequencies but how many instances have you seen where a single sub in a corner gets a great response?

So yeah, you do not get the optimal response by using subs as speaker stands, but you do get to have a much higher crossover frequency without risking localization, and you get a speaker stand that will absolutely not tip over. I would seriously bet that two subwoofers as speaker stands will get a better response than one sub in a corner in almost any normal room. Using subs in opposite sides of the room for a more "precise feel"? Nonsense. The only way to get accurate playback from a subwoofer in room is to measure and then place correspondingly. It is trial and error, and there is no really successful rule of thumb regarding placement that is a shortcut from that. And yes I have read the Harman papers, Geddes papers, etc on the subject. It is good stuff but not very meaningful for anyone who does not measure their response.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Of course I know that the point of emission for bass frequencies is rarely ideal as those of upper frequencies. I have a lots of different measurements of subwoofer response from placements all over my room. The thing is, most people rarely have the luxury of placing the subs where they will get the best response. Corner placement can boost lower frequencies but how many instances have you seen where a single sub in a corner gets a great response?

So yeah, you do not get the optimal response by using subs as speaker stands, but you do get to have a much higher crossover frequency without risking localization, and you get a speaker stand that will absolutely not tip over. I would seriously bet that two subwoofers as speaker stands will get a better response than one sub in a corner in almost any normal room.

Agreed, a single sub in a corner won't usually deliver a "great" response, but it depends on the corner. I didn't pick up on that the op was restricted in placement, and figured that being in a basement, the overall dims were larger than the 18x12(I think) and would naturally yield a little better response. And hope he could pick up a second Rythmik to help further. I might take you up on that bet just for fun.But like you said, unless you measure....
Also, simply curiosity. You mentioned a higher XO as a benefit. How does that play out? Just looking for insight.

 

[shadyJ]

The Sierra has a 5.25" woofer. That is a nice size for a midwoofer, but I wouldn't want it to try to tackle bass very much. It will be limited. The more you raise the crossover on a design like that, the more dynamic range you get. Even a middle-of-the-road 12" will blow it away for dynamic range. And that means less distortion as well. The only reason most setups use an 80 Hz crossover to subs is because of localization, but many subs are very capable well beyond 80 Hz. If you had a floorstanding speaker with a 12" bass driver in it, you would not use a 80 Hz crossover point. You would probably use something like 120 Hz to 200 Hz, maybe higher, depending on the design. The higher you cross over the bass driver, the more you alleviate the midwoofer, and the happier the midwoofer will be. Also, your speakers will be less affected by floor bounce effect if you have more of the bass coming from near the floor rather than near ear level. This is usually most severe in the 150 Hz to 300 Hz range, but it depends on listening distance from the speaker and room modes too.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yep. 5.25 isn't very big, and even though they claim 30hz(iirc), I'd never run them that low. Funny you mentioned towers with 12's. I have towers with 12's and I've tried them crossed all over, and in my room, and with my subs the best implementation has been 100hz. Any higher didn't show any advantage, and I like to let my mains cover as much as they can. IME the presentation is just better. I have plenty of power, and my mains don't mind so... Oh. All measurements with umik-1 and REW.
I'd really like to know the total airspace for the op. Maybe just another sub would satisfy, but I'm a believer in towers and he has budget so...

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Consider that many tower speakers are essentially just bookshelf speakers built on top of a weak subwoofer in design.

I agree. The KEF 207/2, Revel Salon2, & B&W 800D are examples of monitor-atop-a-weaker-subwoofer in design. The tweeter & midrange are the monitor section, and the woofers are subwoofer section.

But it seems most people either don't care or not willing to accept this concept.

AJ's Soundfield Audio Overture speaker system is like that.
http://www.soundfieldaudio.net/1812-overture.html

Each Philharmonic-3 tower comes in 2 pieces - a monitor that sits atop the bottom bass cabinet, but is wired into a single speaker system so it behaves like a single speaker.

Modular speakers like Gene's $50K RBH/Status Acoustics 8T towers are 2-piece (monitor/subwoofer) speaker systems.

http://www.statusacoustics.com/8t.php

So is the new RBH SVT Modular Tower:

https://rbhsound.com/svt.php

People like to say things like "best placements", but when it ACTUALLY TRULY comes down to it, people will do what's available and practical and try to also make things AESTHETICALLY PLEASING.

As if people are going to actually place a subwoofer smack in the middle of a room if that's truly the "best placement".

And I don't know of many people who could place a big subwoofer right in the MIDDLE of the front wall.

Let's be real (like what you and I are saying). Most people have a TV atop a TV stand in the MIDDLE of the front wall. The sofa will be placed the MIDDLE of the back wall if the room isn't too big.

We won't find many people who could place a big subwoofer in the middle of the back wall either.

What most people have AVAILABLE for practical subwoofer locations are the spaces in close proximity to the front left and right main speakers, which is similar to having the monitors atop the subwoofers in the same locations as the front mains.

For example, if the room is 18FT wide, the usual locations for the mains might be 3-4FT from the side walls and 10-12FT apart from each other. Good locations for the 2 subwoofers could also be 3-4FT from the side walls (1/4-wall placement of subs).

I think one barrier to this monitor-atop-subwoofer concept is the aesthetics. I think most people think this looks ugly. Or they are just not USED to this idea. It seems very odd and foreign to them, which is understandable.

When I had the KEF 201/2 monitors, I placed them atop the Funk Audio 18.0 subwoofers using VTI metal speaker stands (with isolation cushions on the bottom of the stands and under the monitors). It worked great.

For me and probably most people, the HT system needs to not only SOUND GREAT, but also LOOK pleasing and practical.

When people do a crawl test and find that best subwoofer location is right smack in the center of the room, they are NOT going to place a subwoofer right smack in the center of the room, so people need to give it a rest with this statement.

But bottom line, there is always more than 1 way of doing things that will sound great to people.

We all don't need to do things the same way.

Darn, I feel like I'm in court or something.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

ADTG, it seems like some of your points were made with my comments in mind so I'll go. I respect your opinion a lot so keep that in mind. I agree with a lot of what you said and 1/4 corner placement is definitely where most setups get put, or very close to. But many rooms, for aesthetics, or possibly performance don't lend to front wall sub placement. I've seen plenty of rooms with subs along the side walls, and far more commonly in the rear(corners)of the room. I used that for a long time very successfully. I love the RBH modular system and if I had the money, would very likely buy them. My point was that L/R speakers will many times provide better SS&I, and smoother bass out in the room 4-5', and I think mostly subs don't perform that well, that far in to the room. Probably could have articulated that better. A fair point would be to say most people won't bring their mains that far out either. Fair enough, but some will. And I also didn't mean "best" as without compromise(i.e.:center of the room), but within reason.
You're right again too, we don't need to do things the same way. Thankfully.
The defense rests...

 

[lovinthehd]

One thought is that a kid, unrestrained and talented enough, can knock a speaker off a sub, too. Might think of way to anchor towers to the floor if worried about knocking 'em over. Teaching them to be respectful of the gear may work too (didn't with me as a young kid tho, when I punched a hole in one of my dad's speakers....he had to go mono again after that!).

Adding another Rythmik sub sounds like a good idea in any case, tho. I'd also like to know more about the room total volume open to the sub....

I also like (and have S-1 NrTs, several 200SEs and 170SEs) Ascend speakers and would love to try the Towers/Horizon up front. I wouldn't worry about the music vs HT thing much but just what spl do you plan playback at?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

ADTG, it seems like some of your points were made with my comments in mind so I'll go. I respect your opinion a lot so keep that in mind. I agree with a lot of what you said and 1/4 corner placement is definitely where most setups get put, or very close to. But many rooms, for aesthetics, or possibly performance don't lend to front wall sub placement. I've seen plenty of rooms with subs along the side walls, and far more commonly in the rear(corners)of the room. I used that for a long time very successfully. I love the RBH modular system and if I had the money, would very likely buy them. My point was that L/R speakers will many times provide better SS&I, and smoother bass out in the room 4-5', and I think mostly subs don't perform that well, that far in to the room. Probably could have articulated that better. A fair point would be to say most people won't bring their mains that far out either. Fair enough, but some will. And I also didn't mean "best" as without compromise(i.e.:center of the room), but within reason.
You're right again too, we don't need to do things the same way. Thankfully.
The defense rests...

Wait just a minute here. I thought I was the Defense?

I'm sure we all recommend to others what have worked best for us personally.

I think the point that ShadyJ and I were making was that although there are many options, placing the bookshelf speakers atop the subwoofers (if you have 2 subwoofers) is one option that most people have not considered.

If you don't have room for subs in the front, then, of course, placing them elsewhere is also an option.

It's definitely nice to have a door in your HT room that you can lock up when you want.

 

[everettT]

If you consider the towers, look at the Salk Song 3, it's the same price as the nrt and has much lower extension +-3db at 33hz .

 

[2channel lover]

If you consider the towers, look at the Salk Song 3, it's the same price as the nrt and has much lower extension +-3db at 33hz .

We all know speakers are somewhat subjective because we don't all hear exactly the same, but in terms of reproducing the recording as the sound engineer intended...obviously some speakers accomplish this better than others.

That said, I've been going through a total redo of my music/HT system. My speakers (B&W804m) are now approaching 20 yrs old. They still sound pretty good...but, when I started demoing new speakers I realize drivers, crossovers, etc. have improved a lot in 20 yrs.

I first heard a pair of Salk Sound speakers about 3 yrs ago out in Colo. I don't remember that exact model (I think they were SongTowers), but I remember liking the sound a lot. More open thru the mid range than my B&Ws w/o sounding thin.

After demoing roughly a dz speakers over the last 6 months...(including the new B&W 804 and 803 D3, Monitor Audio G300, Golden Ear Triton 1 among them) I placed an order on a pair of Song3-A speakers yesterday.

Granted I did something totally out of character for me...I bought these w/o hearing them. When I spoke with the Songtower owner, he said if you liked the Songtower, you're going to love the Song3A. More accurate mid, cleaner highs, more bass, bigger sound stage. I was sold.

We'll see...worst case I can sell them and recoup some of the money. There seems to be a high demand for used Salks.

 

[everettT]

Congrats on the new speakers ! I love that midrange, heard it on the soundscapes , excellent dispersion..

We all know speakers are somewhat subjective because we don't all hear exactly the same, but in terms of reproducing the recording as the sound engineer intended...obviously some speakers accomplish this better than others.

That said, I've been going through a total redo of my music/HT system. My speakers (B&W804m) are now approaching 20 yrs old. They still sound pretty good...but, when I started demoing new speakers I realize drivers, crossovers, etc. have improved a lot in 20 yrs.

I first heard a pair of Salk Sound speakers about 3 yrs ago out in Colo. I don't remember that exact model (I think they were SongTowers), but I remember liking the sound a lot. More open thru the mid range than my B&Ws w/o sounding thin.

After demoing roughly a dz speakers over the last 6 months...(including the new B&W 804 and 803 D3, Monitor Audio G300, Golden Ear Triton 1 among them) I placed an order on a pair of Song3-A speakers yesterday.

Granted I did something totally out of character for me...I bought these w/o hearing them. When I spoke with the Songtower owner, he said if you liked the Songtower, you're going to love the Song3A. More accurate mid, cleaner highs, more bass, bigger sound stage. I was sold.

We'll see...worst case I can sell them and recoup some of the money. There seems to be a high demand for used Salks.

 

[2channel lover]

Congrats on the new speakers ! I love that midrange, heard it on the soundscapes , excellent dispersion..

Thanks, I'm pretty excited.

Jim Salk said when I was ordering, he wanted to keep the S3 below $3k (price increasing Jun. 1 he said) so he didn't initially put the Accuton mid in there. After making a pair for a customer, the mid details were so impressive during the listening tests he knew he had to add it to the line so the S3A was born. I got a super charged Song Ctr also so I'm almost done with this redo. New source and new rack is it.

 

[everettT]

The 9.5" in the encore plays to 25hz anehoic , and with room gain you could probably get true 20hz to 25khz.at $5500 that's the best price I've seen in a well designed speaker.

Thanks, I'm pretty excited.

Jim Salk said when I was ordering, he wanted to keep the S3 below $3k (price increasing Jun. 1 he said) so he didn't initially put the Accuton mid in there. After making a pair for a customer, the mid details were so impressive during the listening tests he knew he had to add it to the line so the S3A was born. I got a super charged Song Ctr also so I'm almost done with this redo. New source and new rack is it.

 

[2channel lover]

The 9.5" in the encore plays to 25hz anehoic , and with room gain you could probably get true 20hz to 25khz.at $5500 that's the best price I've seen in a well designed speaker.

I'm such a music head that I was tempted to leave off the ctr channel and just go with the S3E...trust me I was.

In the end, this will be a music/HT space...I'm not that enamored with HT, I mostly watch sports on TV, but the wife will come up to the loft sometimes for movies so I at least wanted to do HT right. So, I am slated to buy a pair of subs maybe by Fri...HSU ULS15 mk2 is #1 on my list right now.

When I mentioned to Jim Salk about the subs...he said save the $2k and go with the S3A.