Budget turntable under $500

[TLS Guy]

TLS Guy,

Could you give an example or two of the Far East Turntables which are not fit for purpose, and full of basic errors? Also, what are the basic errors? Would the Technics SL-1200GR be among the units you do not like?

I have a 43 year old Sony PS-4750 with Shure V15V-MR and sometimes Shure M97xE which might be what you consider Far East; but, it seems to get me results which I can only distinguish from CD's of same material and in all perimeters when I hear an occasional pop or click.

I believe you have a highly informed opinion of Hi-Fi, so I'd like a few details if you have the time.

The trouble with those Technics turntables is that the PU arm awful unless you use a low compliance cartridge then the cartridge/arm resonance is right in the wrong place.

The Far East has sent us a blizzard of this sort of stuff over the years.

The tone are is crude, and has to drag levers with the arm to work the auto mechanism, adding friction to were there is an absolutely audible downgrade. Whenever anybody has brought those in for repair, I always take out the auto mechanism.

 

[lovinthehd]

I come up with 7.28hz for my SL1200mk2/Shure M97xE combo using this calculator.

I don't have any particular issues with this or other cartridges I've used on this tt; does the stabilizer help mitigate any issues? How does going above/below the 8-12hz "ideal" range of resonance manifest itself in terms of audible or tracking issues?

The trouble with those Technics turntables is that the PU arm awful unless you use a low compliance cartridge then the cartridge/arm resonance is right in the wrong place.

The Far East has sent us a blizzard of this sort of stuff over the years.

The tone are is crude, and has to drag levers with the arm to work the auto mechanism, adding friction to were there is an absolutely audible downgrade. Whenever anybody has brought those in for repair, I always take out the auto mechanism.

 

[MR.MAGOO]

Automatic turntables are best avoided. The lack of adjustment is also a severe defect.

The automatic mechanism adds too much extra drag on the PU arm. Turntables designed in the Far East are seldom on my recommend list.

The OP would be much better of with a Project or U-Turn.

if one does not want to spend time fiddling with adjustments, getting the anti-skating just right, etc, automatics are fine.

 

[killdozzer]

LOL just saw in a B&H catalog a 1210mk5 is $1999.00 but includes dj cartridge and some other accessories (value $241.82!)

I could agree it's overpriced (but then, that's my general opinion on almost everything on the market), however, we should take into account that 5 was a very recent unit. It was the model that started its production in 2002. Hence the price and the improvements.

This would also be my response @Verdinut - the fact that Audio Technica made something few years ago that can finally compete with something Technics made in the 70' AND that something was the TT Audio Technica based its model upon, I believe, speaks more to the favour of Technics.

If you take into consideration the tuning MK's went through, I believe you shouldn't find torque to be a problem.

It also depends are you buying the TT for work - playing records in clubs or for in-house listening.

 

[Verdinut]

I could agree it's overpriced (but then, that's my general opinion on almost everything on the market), however, we should take into account that 5 was a very recent unit. It was the model that started its production in 2002. Hence the price and the improvements.

This would also be my response @Verdinut - the fact that Audio Technica made something few years ago that can finally compete with something Technics made in the 70' AND that something was the TT Audio Technica based its model upon, I believe, speaks more to the favour of Technics.

If you take into consideration the tuning MK's went through, I believe you shouldn't find torque to be a problem.

It also depends are you buying the TT for work - playing records in clubs or for in-house listening.

The AT-LP1240 has a better tone arm than that of the Technics however.

 

[killdozzer]

The AT-LP1240 has a better tone arm than that of the Technics however.

I don't actually mind you liking whichever TT suits you best, but your "if it's not this it's that" approach, looks more like you're rooting for AT than stating facts. First you said it's because of the torque, now it's tone arm.

If the problem of automatic turntables exists, and I don't have a reason not to trust TLS when he says they do, they would exist on any tone arm that (I'm paraphrasing TLS) "drag all the levers of the automatic mechanism", AT and Mk the same.

Furthermore, If you believe that the word of a few DJ's count, and there's no reason why it shouldn't, then you must agree that several hundreds of thousands of DJ's on the other hand should also mean something.

I've never seen the "tone-arm-off" between AT and Mk, but I do know that tone arms of AT's are completely based on tone-arms of Mk's.

Of course, sometimes the pupil surpasses the master and that may very well be the case here, but some actual comparison might help prove this.

I have nothing against AT and for the lack of Mk's, as I believe most of those DJ's did, I could even see myself buying an AT. but I would expect TLS to tell me the same thing; the tone arm has to drag all those levers.

The other thing he mentioned was compliance but I don't know enough about that to comment. If you have reliable info that AT solved this on their model, that would be great. i'm not brand loyal.

 

[lovinthehd]

I've never seen the "tone-arm-off" between AT and Mk, but I do know that tone arms of AT's are completely based on tone-arms of Mk's.

Of course, sometimes the pupil surpasses the master and that may very well be the case here, but some actual comparison might help prove this.

I have nothing against AT and for the lack of Mk's, as I believe most of those DJ's did, I could even see myself buying an AT. but I would expect TLS to tell me the same thing; the tone arm has to drag all those levers.

FWIW neither the Technics SL1200 series nor the AT 1240 have auto return or auto off mechanisms, they're fully manual turntables.

 

[Verdinut]

I don't actually mind you liking whichever TT suits you best, but your "if it's not this it's that" approach, looks more like you're rooting for AT than stating facts. First you said it's because of the torque, now it's tone arm.

If the problem of automatic turntables exists, and I don't have a reason not to trust TLS when he says they do, they would exist on any tone arm that (I'm paraphrasing TLS) "drag all the levers of the automatic mechanism", AT and Mk the same.

Furthermore, If you believe that the word of a few DJ's count, and there's no reason why it shouldn't, then you must agree that several hundreds of thousands of DJ's on the other hand should also mean something.

I've never seen the "tone-arm-off" between AT and Mk, but I do know that tone arms of AT's are completely based on tone-arms of Mk's.

Of course, sometimes the pupil surpasses the master and that may very well be the case here, but some actual comparison might help prove this.

I have nothing against AT and for the lack of Mk's, as I believe most of those DJ's did, I could even see myself buying an AT. but I would expect TLS to tell me the same thing; the tone arm has to drag all those levers.

The other thing he mentioned was compliance but I don't know enough about that to comment. If you have reliable info that AT solved this on their model, that would be great. i'm not brand loyal.

If you haven't seen an AT arm. how do you know it's copied on the Technics?

Also, either the AT or the Technics are not automatic turntables as such. I am sure that TLS Guy was not referring to those when he mentioned his opinion on automatic turntables.

 

[Tankman]

I have the AT-120, going strong since 2011. Not crazy about the plastic housing. It has a nice heavy platter and performs very well.

 

[Mikado463]

On the turntable front I purchased a Sony PS-HX500 for $399. I use the built-in preamp DAC. It works great.

So..........what are your thoughts on your new purchase ?

 

[3db]

Unless your DJ, the torque of the Tehnics direct drive offers no advantage to that of a belt drive table. I would rather spend the money on a ProJect whose tone arm IS bettet quality than and offers better tracking yhen that of the Technics.

 

[Mikado463]

Unless your DJ, the torque of the Tehnics direct drive offers no advantage to that of a belt drive table. I would rather spend the money on a ProJect whose tone arm IS bettet quality than and offers better tracking yhen that of the Technics.

Duhhhh, did you read his last post ? He bought a Sony TT. As for the ProJect / Music Hall arm being 'better' .....how do you know that ?

 

[3db]

Duhhhh, did you read his last post ? He bought a Sony TT. As for the ProJect / Music Hall arm being 'better' .....how do you know that ?

Duh. 1) I realized he bought a Sony. 2) I don't recall saying Music Hall, 3) Carbon fiber is far more rigid and lighter then the Aluminum arms used by Technics which cuts down the amount of vibrational noise being transmitted to the cartridge.

 

[killdozzer]

If you haven't seen an AT arm. how do you know it's copied on the Technics?

Also, either the AT or the Technics are not automatic turntables as such. I am sure that TLS Guy was not referring to those when he mentioned his opinion on automatic turntables.

There you go again. Your heart simply says AT and that's it. I asked for some actual reading about it, not this "I like it better so it must be better".

You'll have to point out where exactly did I say I haven't seen an AT arm. I said I haven't seen a reliable comparison (or any for that matter) that would put AT tone arm in front Mk's tone arm.

You know like "face-off" so a variation: "tone-arm-off", like pitting two tone arms against each other. I have seen and listened to both of those TT's. Some better and newer and some older.

Still, if you know of such, specs and fact, based comparison just point me in the right direction. As I said, it would be very interesting to see someone significantly improving over something by copying it.

Again, I'm not brand loyal. If you ask me, I would like to own a Luxman TT with all its advantages and flaws. I'm not an agent of Technics.

However, they did something pretty good and armies of lesser ones tried to copy it. If someone actually managed to make it better, it would be interesting to read about it. I read heaps of articles on TT's, I could enjoy one more.

Until then, let me just point out that you jumped to agree with lovinthehd as you probably thought he is saying something that backs your TT choice. But, it doesn't; if there's no levers in one, there's no levers in the other (since neither is automatic). Moving on, if the problem is the mass of metal tonearms, again, it would be the same for AT metal arms as with Mk's metal arms. On the other hand 3db said torque is of no importance, you didn't immediately agree. No, I'm not convinced so far. It still looks like; "I like AT so it must be better".

I wouldn't mind that either. A lot of members made such claims; "it's not better, but I like it better".

The only reason I'm asking you again is because you're making it look some actual specs prove AT is better. I tried to find such a read, but couldn't. Could you post a link?

kd

 

[killdozzer]

Duh. 1) I realized he bought a Sony. 2) I don't recall saying Music Hall, 3) Carbon fiber is far more rigid and lighter then the Aluminum arms used by Technics which cuts down the amount of vibrational noise being transmitted to the cartridge.

I hoped you'd join in. I remember you being savvy on TT's. If you're still up for it after those "duuuhhh..." comments, you said something about rigidness, now a tone arm has a weight on the other end (I know you know this, I'm just trying to make a point before I ask), so it is suspended in balance like a libra with slight tilt on the needle end. It is being driven very lightly by the groove and if the platform it sits on is adequately isolated it shouldn't suffer the vibrations. Is this a situation where you actually profit from the difference in rigidness between metal and carbon?

My other question, since your approach to TT's is not one of "since it's old technology, flawed in several ways to begin with, just buy whatever for few hundred bucks and you wan't notice the difference", you have more of this analytical and fact based approach even if it's TT's, Q: how much audible and noticable (in performance) improvement has there been in todays TT's? I have some records from my old man and would like to be able to listen to them. I'm thinking about new versus old, could you throw a couple of advises my way?

I'm mostly interested in housing of most of those TT's you and other mention (ProJect, Uturn and I would add Rega). On one hand, everyone is talking about good isolation between housing and platter. And then you see all these hipster-like TT's being a glass platter popped on a, what you call it in English, chipboard (the type of plywood used for kitchen cabinets), what kind of vibration isolation this offers?

kd

 

[Mikado463]

Duh. 1) I realized he bought a Sony. 2) I don't recall saying Music Hall, 3) Carbon fiber is far more rigid and lighter then the Aluminum arms used by Technics which cuts down the amount of vibrational noise being transmitted to the cartridge.

one can argue the tone arm difference till there blue in the face. Compliance mating of arm and cartridge comes into play as well. I'm not saying the carbon fibre arm employed by ProJect / Music Hall (I believe they do share components / manufacturing to some degree) is bad, heck for a $500 table it is really quite good I suspect.

As for the vibrational noise you speak of, or transmission thereof, there's a lot more at play here that tonearm tube construction ........

 

[Mikado463]

Ok, so lets say one wants a little more than a $500 rig ..............

https://www.whathifi.com/news/burmester-celebrates-40th-anniversary-launching-its-first-turntable?utm_content=buffer09e30&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

analog to the extreme !

 

[lovinthehd]

Ok, so lets say one wants a little more than a $500 rig ..............

https://www.whathifi.com/news/burmester-celebrates-40th-anniversary-launching-its-first-turntable?utm_content=buffer09e30&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

analog to the extreme !

Yeah 30,000 euro is a bit more than $500 LOL. Burmester is nice stuff I suppose if you like throwing money at things; seems crazy to me to spend this kind of money (let alone the silly expensive cartridge and phono stage and maybe even silly cables to go with it) playing cheaply stamped pieces of vinyl....then again it's crazy that someone would pay me more for my 35 year old tt than I did when new....

 

[Mikado463]

'lovin', I agree, while I'm a dedicated analog junkie (spinning black pizza for 50 plus years) I know full well that $500 doesn't begin to do the format justice, there lies a 'comfort zone' between $500 and 30k !

 

[lovinthehd]

'lovin', I agree, while I'm a dedicated analog junkie (spinning black pizza for 50 plus years) I know full well that $500 doesn't begin to do the format justice, there lies a 'comfort zone' between $500 and 30k !

I have used vinyl for about 50 years now, altho my early vinyl collection my mom/dad gave away during a sneaky move scenario, I think the comfort zone is more solidly around the $500 level unless you're just kinda goofy about your analog gear....