Whole house speaker connection question

[2channel lover]

I'm somewhat new to this board, but have gotten some excellent help here in building a new music/HT system. On that end, the RBH R5bi speakers (side rears) came in last week and are currently being used as mains to break in a bit.

At the same time I have been building a whole house set up. This is a story and a half (3 bedrooms on the main) open floor plan layout. The sunroom is a converted patio accessible from the family room by two sets of dbl doors flanking the fireplace.

I have a AV7702Mkii pre-pro with a zone 2 & 3. Each zone has a left and right channel. In zone 2, I have a pair of Noble Fidelity L85MK2 in ceiling speakers in the sunroom connected to a Emo A500 5 channel amp...it's working great. I will post a review on those speakers one day soon.

For zone 3 I wanted to have 2 speakers in the family room and 1 speaker in the master to complete the job. That brings me back to the 7702Mkii's L & R connection.

I know it was long winded, but my question what is the best way to connect 3 speakers to this configuration? My only inclination has been to splice the master bedroom speaker into the wiring for one of the channels. Will this work okay?

Thanks in advance.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Not sure what zone 1 is on your setup or what amplification you are using for your zone 1/zone 2/zone 3 setup.

Zone 1 - ??? (theater) ??? - Pre-outs of Marantz to dedicated amplifier for that space and 5.1+ setup.

Zone 2 - Sunroom - Channels 1 & 2 on your A500 amplifier connected by RCA from zone 2 output of the Marantz.

Zone 3 - Family room (stereo) and master bedroom (mono (?)) - I would split the RCA outputs from zone 3 out of the Marantz and run stereo connections to Channels 3 & 4 on the A500 amplifier, then take the other two RCA outputs and combine them into a mono connection and run them into channel 5 of the A500 amplifier to run the bedroom. You will need a volume control for the family room and the bedroom separately. It is unusual to run a mono zone in a all-stereo setup like this, but shouldn't be a problem.

If there is something not accurate here, then you will need to more accurately describe the speakers/setup you have currently or are trying to accomplish.

 

[2channel lover]

Not sure what zone 1 is on your setup or what amplification you are using for your zone 1/zone 2/zone 3 setup.

Zone 1 - ??? (theater) ??? - Pre-outs of Marantz to dedicated amplifier for that space and 5.1+ setup.

Zone 2 - Sunroom - Channels 1 & 2 on your A500 amplifier connected by RCA from zone 2 output of the Marantz.

Zone 3 - Family room (stereo) and master bedroom (mono (?)) - I would split the RCA outputs from zone 3 out of the Marantz and run stereo connections to Channels 3 & 4 on the A500 amplifier, then take the other two RCA outputs and combine them into a mono connection and run them into channel 5 of the A500 amplifier to run the bedroom. You will need a volume control for the family room and the bedroom separately. It is unusual to run a mono zone in a all-stereo setup like this, but shouldn't be a problem.

If there is something not accurate here, then you will need to more accurately describe the speakers/setup you have currently or are trying to accomplish.

Thanks for the reply.

I'm sorry I wasn't more clear.

Main zone...Loft Music/HT space...5.2.2 amplified by 3 Outlaw 2200 mono blocks (LCR) and Emo A700 for the surrounds (in case I want to go to 5.2.4)

Zone 2 (sunroom is stereo)

Zone 3 family room in stereo (which is open to the kitchen and dining) and Master (I can go stereo, but thought 1 speaker was sufficient.

Both Z2 & 3 are amplified by the A500.

The family room and sunroom are connected via the dbl doors...the thought was for gatherings/parties, etc I wanted the volume to be ample for that kind of setting, thus stereo. The master I just wanted music.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Typically you run zones as stereo, and that's what I would generally plan for.

I would run it pretty much as I described above.

Z1 - Main zone, all set for surround
Z2 - Sunroom - Stereo - A500 channels 1 & 2

Z3 - Fam & Master - Both zones stereo - A500 channels 3 &4, in parallel, to volume controls, then onto the speakers. This will give you proper volume control of the speakers. 2 stereo volume controls will be necessary, typically placed in a convenient location in each room, but if they aren't used often, then you can just put them in near the amplifier.

Some people run multiple zones at the same volume, but this rarely works out well, as the audio won't be balanced properly between the multiple spaces without individual volume controls for each area. As well, it is common that the zone 3 output of a receiver can't even adjust volume. It's just fixed output designed to feed an amplifier. The zone 2 output will be variable and can be adjusted using the Marantz remote control easily.

I would do that before running the bedroom as mono. As well, most speakers are sold as pairs, so it's better to go with them that way.

 

[2channel lover]

Typically you run zones as stereo, and that's what I would generally plan for.

I would run it pretty much as I described above.

Z1 - Main zone, all set for surround
Z2 - Sunroom - Stereo - A500 channels 1 & 2

Z3 - Fam & Master - Both zones stereo - A500 channels 3 &4, in parallel, to volume controls, then onto the speakers. This will give you proper volume control of the speakers. 2 stereo volume controls will be necessary, typically placed in a convenient location in each room, but if they aren't used often, then you can just put them in near the amplifier.

Some people run multiple zones at the same volume, but this rarely works out well, as the audio won't be balanced properly between the multiple spaces without individual volume controls for each area. As well, it is common that the zone 3 output of a receiver can't even adjust volume. It's just fixed output designed to feed an amplifier. The zone 2 output will be variable and can be adjusted using the Marantz remote control easily.

I would do that before running the bedroom as mono. As well, most speakers are sold as pairs, so it's better to go with them that way.

Thanks again BMX.

It's no problem to add an extra speaker for stereo in the master...looking back at your earlier post I think I can handle the RCA wiring...I think the challenge will be the volume controls...I've got attic access and ideally would prefer wall mounted volume controls. These are interior walls thus no insulation to deal with, but I suspect there might be horizontal supports between the 2x4 joist...if so I'll have to pay for some dry wall repair most likely.

 

[BMXTRIX]

If you are able to locate the studs, from above, to drop the cable down into, then you just need to get a long drill bit and drill down through any cross braces as necessary.

This set is excellent, and the drill bit is amazing and getting through 2x4s...
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA0SD53H7472&ignorebbr=1&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC-_-pla-_-Drains+&+Traps-_-9SIA0SD53H7472&gclid=Cj0KEQjwrsDIBRDX3JCunOrr_YYBEiQAifH1Fmcr3lQVsOQTya725NkWoLuFPChuY6q7-zUvLLpvztIaAgOT8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

A bit pricey, but no drywall repair should be necessary.

Of course, you should check for cross braces first with a stud finder. Easy enough to see if something is there, or sounds like it is there.

 

[2channel lover]

If you are able to locate the studs, from above, to drop the cable down into, then you just need to get a long drill bit and drill down through any cross braces as necessary.

This set is excellent, and the drill bit is amazing and getting through 2x4s...
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA0SD53H7472&ignorebbr=1&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleMKP-PC-_-pla-_-Drains+&+Traps-_-9SIA0SD53H7472&gclid=Cj0KEQjwrsDIBRDX3JCunOrr_YYBEiQAifH1Fmcr3lQVsOQTya725NkWoLuFPChuY6q7-zUvLLpvztIaAgOT8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds

A bit pricey, but no drywall repair should be necessary.

Of course, you should check for cross braces first with a stud finder. Easy enough to see if something is there, or sounds like it is there.

After talking with about half dz people in the trade including two local whole house custom installers, I've decided to do the following;

Buy a Yamaha R N402 receiver to power the Sunroom and greatroom, both spaces have a pair of speakers...the unit has a A/B speaker control...no individual volume control, but effective enough for me to call it 2 zones. This is a network ready receiver

Move the 5 ch A500 amp (now powering these in ceiling speakers) to the HT system to power the surrounds which is 4 speakers. The 5th channel I will connect to one of the 2 additional zones on the Marantz and power a pair of speakers in the master bedroom.

Send the 7 ch A700 back, never used it anyway and those funds will cover the cost of the Yamaha.

This gives me almost everything I was looking for...simple to do, no wall controls to install.

 

[BMXTRIX]

That's certainly an option, but not the one I would likely go with since you have a quality pre-amp with 3-zones already. Adding a secondary pre-amp/amp on top of your nice multi-zone preamp seems somewhat redundant. Also, you will need to feed that Yamaha from the Zone 3 output of the preamp, or split all your audio connections to both products. If you connect it from Zone 3 of the Marantz, then you will need to power on the Yamaha, make sure it is on the correct source, and power on Z3 of the Marantz, and pick your source. It's going to be another step every time you use it.

If you want to do it on the cheap (but good quality), and have solid volume control in both areas, you certainly don't need another pre-amp to get there.

Something like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sonance-Sonamp-260x3-mkII-Power-Amplifier-/282467825936?hash=item41c464f910:g:M8YAAOSwYlRZEMN~

Will give you amplification for up to 3 stereo zones (same source)

Plus, you can add a in-rack volume control option, like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Pair-Speaker-Selector-Switch-with-volume-level-control-2-Amp-capability-100W-/391538340476?hash=item5b2980f27c:g:Pm4AAOSwHoFXuGIS

That way, you can run the speakers separately, and maintain separate volume control with the touch of a button to turn them on/off. While no local volume control, you would still have individual volume control.

It's a couple hundred less, and gives you greater flexibility within your setup overall.

Up to you though.

 

[2channel lover]

I'll look at these link options in more detail this evening.

One part of your comments I did want to respond to.

Source...Connected to the Marantz I have 1 hardwired source...a CD player. I only listen to that in the true listening room. Anything I really like on CD that I might play on the whole house system, I rip those songs to the itunes library. There would be no need to connect the Yamaha to either zone on the Marantz.

Volume control in the great room and sun room individually...there is some interest there, but I view that as a luxury...having the A/B control really gives me enough control.

Interesting...most of the professionals that I have consulted with have a slightly different remedy for something that seemingly should be pretty simple. All except one involve buying another piece of hardware.

The emotiva sales rep said if it were his home he would take 2 RCA Y adapters into 4 of the channels on the A500 and bridge those into zone 2 on the Marantz, connect the 4 speakers for the sunroom and great room and use remaining channel for zone 3 and the master with one 8 ohm speaker...if he wanted a pr of speakers he'd dbl stack the wires. He says the amp is more than capable of handling the 4 ohms load.

I can see eventually having some WAF issues with that setup because the sunroom and greatroom would always be playing together...if the A/B device you linked can work in that environment I would entertain that.

Thanks again BMX...I think I will have this sorted out one way or another in a week or two.

 

[2channel lover]

That's certainly an option, but not the one I would likely go with since you have a quality pre-amp with 3-zones already. Adding a secondary pre-amp/amp on top of your nice multi-zone preamp seems somewhat redundant. Also, you will need to feed that Yamaha from the Zone 3 output of the preamp, or split all your audio connections to both products. If you connect it from Zone 3 of the Marantz, then you will need to power on the Yamaha, make sure it is on the correct source, and power on Z3 of the Marantz, and pick your source. It's going to be another step every time you use it.

If you want to do it on the cheap (but good quality), and have solid volume control in both areas, you certainly don't need another pre-amp to get there.

Something like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sonance-Sonamp-260x3-mkII-Power-Amplifier-/282467825936?hash=item41c464f910:g:M8YAAOSwYlRZEMN~

Will give you amplification for up to 3 stereo zones (same source)

Plus, you can add a in-rack volume control option, like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Pair-Speaker-Selector-Switch-with-volume-level-control-2-Amp-capability-100W-/391538340476?hash=item5b2980f27c:g:Pm4AAOSwHoFXuGIS

That way, you can run the speakers separately, and maintain separate volume control with the touch of a button to turn them on/off. While no local volume control, you would still have individual volume control.

It's a couple hundred less, and gives you greater flexibility within your setup overall.

Up to you though.

I looked into both links last night and again this morning. If I'm understanding the 2 pair A/B speaker selector with volume control...this really hits the nail on the head. I expect this to solve all the issues I have with the bridged zone (sunroom & greatroom zone 2 on the Marantz). I should be able to play music in both rooms, one at a time and control volume in each room.

For this price, it's a no brainer

Thanks so much!

 

[BMXTRIX]

Yes, that's the way I would work it.

NOTE: I have seen A/V receivers that actually don't allow volume control from zone 3, so that's the zone I typically put 'multiple rooms' on. You really want to leave the zone connected to the two rooms at the same volume level (0 dB) to feed the amplifier. That will give you a full audio signal into the amplifier with full volume control range.

You really do have a ton of options, and none are really bad here, but I would definitely want separate volume control in all my zones if the price is reasonable, which it really is.

I hit up eBay ALL the time for amplifiers. They tend to last for decades if well built.

 

[2channel lover]

The Marantz allows on/off, volume, and analog or airplay sources for Z2 & Z3...no hdmi source for Z3 though. I may switch the bridged zone to 3.

Although I did see another A/B with volume control on Monoprice/Amazon I'm ordering one of these either today or tomorrow...we'll see how I do with the connections.

 

[BMXTRIX]

It is very typical to hook up analog audio for second and third zones so as to leave the main zone as a surround area. This isn't always possible with modern devices and is a huge shortfall of HDMI that it does not include a required stereo track along with surround sound to provide audio properly to multiple zones. Just a complain pain in the rear.

Anyway, if your audio sources provide analog audio, make those connections to your A/V receiver and you won't have any issues with zone 2 and zone 3 playing music perfectly. It's so standard for me to do this I almost forget about it now. Also, the manufacturers, when they sell you gear, have no idea how zone 2 and zone 3 actually work. They're all like "Yeah, it plays back from HDMI without issue!" - Then you plug in HDMI and your surround sound is forced to stereo, and you get no audio in the third zone.

Your CD player should have analog audio outputs, and they will sound good. Monoprice has good analog stereo cables in various lengths if you need some.

 

[2channel lover]

It is very typical to hook up analog audio for second and third zones so as to leave the main zone as a surround area. This isn't always possible with modern devices and is a huge shortfall of HDMI that it does not include a required stereo track along with surround sound to provide audio properly to multiple zones. Just a complain pain in the rear.

Anyway, if your audio sources provide analog audio, make those connections to your A/V receiver and you won't have any issues with zone 2 and zone 3 playing music perfectly. It's so standard for me to do this I almost forget about it now. Also, the manufacturers, when they sell you gear, have no idea how zone 2 and zone 3 actually work. They're all like "Yeah, it plays back from HDMI without issue!" - Then you plug in HDMI and your surround sound is forced to stereo, and you get no audio in the third zone.

Your CD player should have analog audio outputs, and they will sound good. Monoprice has good analog stereo cables in various lengths if you need some.

Thanks again BMX...I ordered the 2 ch A/B volume control unit you linked me to today. It will probably get here Sat or Monday.

I have an old Rotel CD (RDD980 & RDP980)...transport and separate DAC...it's showing some age now (the transport tray sticks) but still sounds great. I connect it via analog so that I can use as a source on either of the extra zones but I don't expect to play CDs in the others zones much.

I'm planning on replacing it with the Oppo 203 at some point...maybe the 205 if the audio is deemed worth the extra money.

As far as surround goes I really over bought my needs with this Marantz because I rarely watch movies. I'm mostly a music guy, but the wife like movies so I thought I would make the effort to do surround right this time. For the price it was hard to pass up.

I'll let you know how it turns out and shoot some pics when it's complete.