power amp and preamp general question

[Tarik]

So I am a music lover and was told if I want to get the best audio experience ,musically or otherwise, that I must get a preamp. I don't know how to use a preamp. Do I need a power amp separate from my audio receiver to operate the preamp? do power amps and preamps work separately? or must they all be connected to my receiver? if I have 11 channel audio receiver must I get 11 channel power amp/pre amp? If power amp output more power that speaker can handle, will my speakers burn out? Example a 200 watt per channel power receiver running 150 Watt speakers or less. If I get power amp or preamp, where do speaker wires go? Which device ?

I have onkyo TX-NR3030
Front speakers : KEF Q700
Centre:KEF Q600c
Side: Polk M20
Back: JBL loft50
in ceiling : yamaha 3 way speakers (100watt max)

 

[slipperybidness]

So I am a music lover and was told if I want to get the best audio experience ,musically or otherwise, that I must get a preamp. I don't know how to use a preamp. Do I need a power amp separate from my audio receiver to operate the preamp? do power amps and preamps work separately? or must they all be connected to my receiver? if I have 11 channel audio receiver must I get 11 channel power amp/pre amp? If power amp output more power that speaker can handle, will my speakers burn out? Example a 200 watt per channel power receiver running 150 Watt speakers or less. If I get power amp or preamp, where do speaker wires go? Which device ?

I have onkyo TX-NR3030
Front speakers : KEF Q700
Centre:KEF Q600c
Side: Polk M20
Back: JBL loft50
in ceiling : yamaha 3 way speakers (100watt max)

Yeah, whoever told you "if I want to get the best audio experience ,musically or otherwise, that I must get a preamp" would seem to be the type of person that wants to act like they know something, when in fact they don't. Or, perhaps they believe their own misjudgement.

Your Onkyo AVR has its own Preamp! I suppose this person means "you need a standalone pre-amp", and the fact is that you do not.

I HIGHLY doubt that adding a preamp to your system will do anything at all to improve the sound quality.

Your speakers are decent, but no sub-woofer?

If you really want to improve the sound, especially for movies or hip-hop and EDM music, then take that $ and invest in a big boy sub-woofer FIRST.

EDIT: What exactly is it on your system that you think needs improvement?

Or, are you just questioning your setup due to somebody telling you that you need a pre-amp to improve it?

 

[Tarik]

Sorry forgot to include sub info. Got 2 dsw 660 pro polk and am very happy with it. Not sure specifically what I want improved. just heard from people that adding a preamp will increase fidelity and performance, especially if it's tube made. I don't want to fall in the audiophile trap where you constantly got to buy expensive items for minor improvement. If what your saying is true then that would save me $$$. Could you recommend anything else form my set up? Looking for noticeable improvement.

 

[slipperybidness]

Sorry forgot to include sub info. Got 2 dsw 660 pro polk and am very happy with it. Not sure specifically what I want improved. just heard from people that adding a preamp will increase fidelity and performance, especially if it's tube made. I don't want to fall in the audiophile trap where you constantly got to buy expensive items for minor improvement. If what your saying is true then that would save me $$$. Could you recommend anything else form my set up? Looking for noticeable improvement.

Yup, replace your Polk subs with some big boy subs!
Look at Rythmik, HSU, SVS for a REAL, POWERFUL subwoofer or a pair.

Yup, "tubes are better" is a sure sign that this person does not have a clue, and he is trying to misguide you too. Likely not intentional, and he likely also believes his own non-sense.

Bottom Line: Solid State audio gear is SUPERIOR IN EVERY POSSIBLE WAY, as compared to Tubes. This really is not open for debate, it is fact and is easily proven with MEASUREMENTS.

Just as a side note, my main HT is driven from a Pio Elite AVR.

I have a 2.1 Channel setup in a different room, Emotiva USP-1 Pre-amp, Emotiva DAC, Parasound AMP.

I also have a 35WPC Dynaco ST-70 Tube amp, and a Bottlehead Quickie Tube Pre-amp.

My point here is that I have both SS and tube gear, and I have a system that is a simple AVR and another system that is complete 2.1 separates. And, I'm telling you that this person giving you advice "purchase a pre-amp, and preferably a tube pre" is a fool (audioFool).

Speakers are the first place to spend the $, and your Q700 is no slouch. Next, spend the $ on a powerful sub or a pair.

Trust me, your Polk sub at full potential won't even start to compare to one of these before this one would even break a sweat.
http://rythmikaudio.com/FV15HP.html

Your neighbors will know when you are watching a movie!

The next BEST place to spend that extra $ is for acoustic room treatments, especially if your room is less than ideal. Upgrading gear is the fun thing to do, but too many people neglect the HUGE factor of room interactions.

 

[Klipschhead302]

I wouldn't say tubes are superior but I would say in the right environment such as music I prefer it even if technically it's not better.

I love tubes but can't afford the ones that would fit my dream music config... end of post that doesn't help the OP one bit.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yep. I was going to say exactly what SB did. The advice you were given is a sure way down the path of diminishing returns. I added a pro Yamaha amp to power my mains, and while I do love it, the change was not night and day. Upgrade suggestions? Yes

Stole that from one of the guys here, but that's where I'd spend more money if I were you.

 

[slipperybidness]

I wouldn't say tubes are superior but I would say in the right environment such as music I prefer it even if technically it's not better.

I love tubes but can't afford the ones that would fit my dream music config... end of post that doesn't help the OP one bit.

Oh, tubes may "sound nicer" in some situations, but "sounding nice" is not the goal of a power amp. A power amp simply takes a small signal and outputs an amplified version of it. If you want "processing", then that is NOT the job of the power amp.

"Processing" is the job of the processor, "amplifying" is the job of the power amp, funny how that works out

Tubes tend to have high output impedance, so you have to start looking at "will this tube amp work well with those speakers". A well designed amp should be load-invariant. Not to mention the long-term degradation of tubes and the need to replace them.

Bottom line, any metric that you want to mention, SS is superior to tube gear.

As I mentioned, I own both, and I use both, but I don't fool myself into thinking that tubes are better.

 

[Tarik]

thx for quick reply. I am reluctant to buy such a big sub cause vibrations are driving the upstairs inhabitants crazy. So i cant even run it at its full potential. can I have the http://rythmikaudio.com/FV15HP.html in addition to my polk subs? I can hook up 4 subs but more worried that I would get uneven sound. Could you send me more information on how to treat your room acoustic treatment? material and where to buy? how much it might cost? youtube video of how to install? will it damage the wall if I remove it ? also will it add a significant contribution to my audio set up

 

[Klipschhead302]

Oh, tubes may "sound nicer" in some situations, but "sounding nice" is not the goal of a power amp. A power amp simply takes a small signal and outputs an amplified version of it. If you want "processing", then that is NOT the job of the power amp.

"Processing" is the job of the processor, "amplifying" is the job of the power amp, funny how that works out

Tubes tend to have high output impedance, so you have to start looking at "will this tube amp work well with those speakers". A well designed amp should be load-invariant. Not to mention the long-term degradation of tubes and the need to replace them.

Bottom line, any metric that you want to mention, SS is superior to tube gear.

As I mentioned, I own both, and I use both, but I don't fool myself into thinking that tubes are better.

Not arguing facts.

 

[Pogre]

I'm going to suggest better sub(s) also. My story is a great point of reference. I came here wanting to improve, but not sure how or what. It took a while, but the guys here convinced me to upgrade my subs. I didn't go with larger subs, just better made ones and was pretty blown away. It wasn't just better bass, my whole system cleaned up and improved dramatically. Far more than I thought it would.

I type this a lot. Good subwoofage is very often underrated. I eventually moved on to much bigger subs because my room is pretty big, but even the smaller, better quality subs made a huge difference.

 

[lovinthehd]

Like has been said so far. If you want to try a power amp, your current avr will do very well as a pre-amp (and you can add a power amp for just your main speakers or for all of them), that is what the pre-outs on the back of your avr are for (pre-out is pre-amplifier output). Unless you're running into distortion/clipping/overhead type issues currently the external amp isn't going to do anything sound quality wise.

Sounds like you're in an apartment so ramping up your ability to annoy your neighbors may not be a good plan, either with higher amplification or subs. A better sub doesn't need to be played louder, although it may well be more tempting to do so, but that would be more annoying to your neighbors as bass travels thru walls/ceilings quite easily....

 

[everettT]

If you start with relatively flat response speakers, you can use dsp to achieve the tube sound or you have the freedom to color the sound any way you want.

 

[slipperybidness]

thx for quick reply. I am reluctant to buy such a big sub cause vibrations are driving the upstairs inhabitants crazy. So i cant even run it at its full potential. can I have the http://rythmikaudio.com/FV15HP.html in addition to my polk subs? I can hook up 4 subs but more worried that I would get uneven sound. Could you send me more information on how to treat your room acoustic treatment? material and where to buy? how much it might cost? youtube video of how to install? will it damage the wall if I remove it ? also will it add a significant contribution to my audio set up

Your best bet is to search AH and the forums.

Likely good place to start:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/why-acoustic-room-treatments-video-shows-it-better-than-i-can-say-it.84559/
http://www.audioholics.com/search?SearchableText=treatment

 

[2channel lover]

So I am a music lover and was told if I want to get the best audio experience ,musically or otherwise, that I must get a preamp. I don't know how to use a preamp. Do I need a power amp separate from my audio receiver to operate the preamp? do power amps and preamps work separately? or must they all be connected to my receiver? if I have 11 channel audio receiver must I get 11 channel power amp/pre amp? If power amp output more power that speaker can handle, will my speakers burn out? Example a 200 watt per channel power receiver running 150 Watt speakers or less. If I get power amp or preamp, where do speaker wires go? Which device ?

I have onkyo TX-NR3030
Front speakers : KEF Q700
Centre:KEF Q600c
Side: Polk M20
Back: JBL loft50
in ceiling : yamaha 3 way speakers (100watt max)

To be redundant...a pre amp is a control center...nothing more. Given that you have a AVR, you already have "control" and power.

I have a "separates" (pre amp and power amp) system, but I'm not really expecting much better sound.

I'm not sure what you're after in terms of improvement, but I was told early on in hifi...the speakers and the source will have the most impact on sound quality.

From my experience, depending on the speakers, adding a quality power amp to your Onkyo might give you a little more punch on the low end, low volume detail, but we're talking subtle here. If 2 channel music is your passion and your front speakers would benefit from more power, you can consider adding a 2 channel power amp to your L & R channels. I'm not sure I would invest in a power amp(s) for all the surround channels since you already have them powered by the Onkyo.

After thinking about this a little more...maybe your friend meant adding a stereo pre amp with HT bypass...that at least makes sense, but still imo the ROI is not going to be significant.

 

[-Jim-]

So I am a music lover and was told if I want to get the best audio experience ,musically or otherwise, that I must get a preamp. I don't know how to use a preamp. Do I need a power amp separate from my audio receiver to operate the preamp? do power amps and preamps work separately? or must they all be connected to my receiver? if I have 11 channel audio receiver must I get 11 channel power amp/pre amp? If power amp output more power that speaker can handle, will my speakers burn out? Example a 200 watt per channel power receiver running 150 Watt speakers or less. If I get power amp or preamp, where do speaker wires go? Which device ?

I have onkyo TX-NR3030
Front speakers : KEF Q700
Centre:KEF Q600c
Side: Polk M20
Back: JBL loft50
in ceiling : yamaha 3 way speakers (100watt max)

JBL Loft50s for the rears? Typo?

 

[Tarik]

not a typo this is a real speaker, good ones too, https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16886110006

 

[Mikado463]

Oh, tubes may "sound nicer" in some situations, but "sounding nice" is not the goal of a power amp. A power amp simply takes a small signal and outputs an amplified version of it. If you want "processing", then that is NOT the job of the power amp.

"Processing" is the job of the processor, "amplifying" is the job of the power amp, funny how that works out

Tubes tend to have high output impedance, so you have to start looking at "will this tube amp work well with those speakers". A well designed amp should be load-invariant. Not to mention the long-term degradation of tubes and the need to replace them.

Bottom line, any metric that you want to mention, SS is superior to tube gear.

As I mentioned, I own both, and I use both, but I don't fool myself into thinking that tubes are better.

there are plenty of tube amps that are 'better' than many a cheap 'receiver'. Tube amplification has it's place as you stated with the right speaker combination and when done right they can be magical.

Is the best receiver superior to the best preamp / amp combination, NO.

 

[-Jim-]

Hi Tarik,

I wasn't complaining about them at all as I have them in my basement system, as the mains => Left & Right. (I have 3 Home Theater systems.) The basement one is for when my Misses is home and I want to listen to a Concert Disk or some Rock 'n Roll stuff. Just something I cobbled together after the sound went out on our 55" Toshiba LED LCD.

The Loft50s just seem overkill for Rears; and much larger than most folks use. Most folks use Loft30s for the rears, or once in a while Loft40s. The volume of material to the Rears is usually well handled by small speakers.

 

[Tarik]

Those speakers were my main Left and right. However, I upgraded to Q700 and didnt have the heart to sell the loft 50 for a reduced price when they preform well. So I used them as rear speakers. Very happy with them too

 

[-Jim-]

How did the comparison go between the JBL's and the KEF's when you first bought them? Have you ever gone back and tried another A/B comparison since?

Thanks for the info.