Intro and...need your opinion pls!

[audiostudent1]

Hello,

I'm doing research for a new product that would be professional-quality DAC + preamp. I would really love if I could get some opinion from the forum.

If you could spare a couple of minutes, please answer my survey?

Link: https://goo.gl/forms/zETihBhI21aUNGuK2

Otherwise, any thoughts about your perfect DAC on this thread would be a great help as well.

Thank you.

 

[Bucknekked]

Hello,

I'm doing research for a new product that would be professional-quality DAC + preamp. I would really love if I could get some opinion from the forum.

If you could spare a couple of minutes, please answer my survey?

Link: https://goo.gl/forms/zETihBhI21aUNGuK2

Otherwise, any thoughts about your perfect DAC on this thread would be a great help as well.

Thank you.

audiostudent1
I would normally say welcome to the forum and enjoy your time here but I don't think you joined AH to learn about audio. Looks like you are taking a class or looking for a survey group.

You may be in the wrong place.

If you have questions or comments about DACs, or any audio products, this is the place to discuss them.
But, surveys for a class? Not so much

 

[TLS Guy]

As soon as i saw MBA student, that counted you out from ANY help from me. MBAs and marketing types have been the absolute ruination of all tech and engineering. Things were much better before we had your ilk.

Designers and engineers need to be in charge all the way. Unfortunately you guys have had the whip hand far too long and caused severe problems in product design.

My strong advice to you is to find another line of work and get out of our hair.

 

[audiostudent1]

Hi TLS Guy,

I've received comments like these before and I understand.

However, I still decided to pursue joining the forum because audiophiles and maybe a few audio professionals are here. You (they) are the ones I want to get the opinion of.

I will not defend/comment about MBAs and your plight against them...I am not doing this for some "class". I am in Switzerland and I've met people working in Sonosax, Merging Technologies and a few audiophiles and audi professionals. They were quite accommodating about my questions regarding what do audiophiles want and what do they need about the current equipment?

There is a new concept for a new DAC but I wanted to get the opinion of people here to learn about it. I'm not looking to sell or ruin technology. I'm just trying to understand how things work.

I had so many questions that I compiled them in a survey because no one seems to have organized data about it or maybe I'm really bad at research and haven't found it.

As you mentioned, you are not willing to help but... could you please let me know exactly how you think MBAs have ruined tech and engineering? I might learn a thing or two from that. I'm asking with all due respect.

 

[audiostudent1]

audiostudent1
I would normally say welcome to the forum and enjoy your time here but I don't think you joined AH to learn about audio. Looks like you are taking a class or looking for a survey group.

You may be in the wrong place.

If you have questions or comments about DACs, or any audio products, this is the place to discuss them.
But, surveys for a class? Not so much

I wrote a lengthy post about this one...so some context is in my reply to TLS guy. Anyway, I appreciate your welcome, regardless. If you checked, my questions in the survey were about compact audio control systems-- DAC + preamp. I was trying to check if this was something audiophiles would dream of because I think it is but the ones I see out there are not very good quality. There's a DAC, a "fully featured" one from Essence with HDMI but the quality is mediocre from my point of view. Would it make sense to want a fully featured DAC with professional grade quality aka Nagra level? Do you think an HDMI feature should be in DACs?

I have more questions and I honestly don't know where to begin so I'm trying here.

Any thoughts, comments appreciated.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi TLS Guy,

I've received comments like these before and I understand.

However, I still decided to pursue joining the forum because audiophiles and maybe a few audio professionals are here. You (they) are the ones I want to get the opinion of.

I will not defend/comment about MBAs and your plight against them...I am not doing this for some "class". I am in Switzerland and I've met people working in Sonosax, Merging Technologies and a few audiophiles and audi professionals. They were quite accommodating about my questions regarding what do audiophiles want and what do they need about the current equipment?

There is a new concept for a new DAC but I wanted to get the opinion of people here to learn about it. I'm not looking to sell or ruin technology. I'm just trying to understand how things work.

I had so many questions that I compiled them in a survey because no one seems to have organized data about it or maybe I'm really bad at research and haven't found it.

As you mentioned, you are not willing to help but... could you please let me know exactly how you think MBAs have ruined tech and engineering? I might learn a thing or two from that. I'm asking with all due respect.

Thank you for your reply. If you have an engineering student involved in this project, I would certainly be prepared to enter into to a discussion and offer him every assistance. I will not offer any advice to an MBA or any type of marketer.

 

[Bucknekked]

could you please let me know exactly how you think MBAs have ruined tech and engineering? I might learn a thing or two from that. I'm asking with all due respect.

audiostudent1

I know it was TLS Guy who took the shots at MBA's and not me, but, since I have an MBA I can weigh in on that question pretty easily. If you have to ask that question, or don't already know the answer, that shows a bit of naivete. Perhaps you think answering anonymous surveys actually gets you good data as well?

One of the most serious charges against MBA's and their effects in their companies decision making is the cut throat, bottom line, make a buck (or a swiss franc) at any cost approach to things. An MBA's strength is understanding how finance, accounting and management of assets and value can be used to best advantage. For many concerned with product quality and customer service, that viewpoint is a road to ruin. It leads to commodity products in generic product lines optimized for profits not performance.

I think the stereotype of the MBA's behavior and affect can be found in the real world if you look for it. You need look no further than Enron and corporate case studies like them. I also think you can find plenty of ethical and positive impacts if you look for them as well. Far more MBA students go and help companies succeed rather than fail. But that's not how stereotypes get created. Its the few that stink it up for the majority.

 

[shadyJ]

I took the survey, because I have a friend in Switzerland, and I like the country, and also I am just screwing around while waiting for a call. National goodwill has done you a favor here, swiss citizen.

 

[TLS Guy]

audiostudent1

I know it was TLS Guy who took the shots at MBA's and not me, but, since I have an MBA I can weigh in on that question pretty easily. If you have to ask that question, or don't already know the answer, that shows a bit of naivete. Perhaps you think answering anonymous surveys actually gets you good data as well?

One of the most serious charges against MBA's and their effects in their companies decision making is the cut throat, bottom line, make a buck (or a swiss franc) at any cost approach to things. An MBA's strength is understanding how finance, accounting and management of assets and value can be used to best advantage. For many concerned with product quality and customer service, that viewpoint is a road to ruin. It leads to commodity products in generic product lines optimized for profits not performance.

I think the stereotype of the MBA's behavior and affect can be found in the real world if you look for it. You need look no further than Enron and corporate case studies like them. I also think you can find plenty of ethical and positive impacts if you look for them as well. Far more MBA students go and help companies succeed rather than fail. But that's not how stereotypes get created. Its the few that stink it up for the majority.

Well said Bucknekked!

I watched a wonderful program a few years ago, featuring the great aero engineer, Sir Stanley Hooker. He made the great Rolls Royce Marlin engine the finest of the WW II, and deserves a lot of credit for winning the Battle of Britain. I remember him saying that he had to fight against the bean counters saying, "We need this, and it need to cost this." He said they never asked if it was any good! He then stated that in his line of work this involved people's lives, which was a serious matter. The only real question was, was it going to be any good!

Some of the great firms of audio, especially from the Golden Age of British Audio never had MBAs or even a marketing department.

Then the marketers got going peddling Far Eastern junk and the race to the bottom began.

 

[Bucknekked]

I wrote a lengthy post about this one...so some context is in my reply to TLS guy. Anyway, I appreciate your welcome, regardless. If you checked, my questions in the survey were about compact audio control systems-- DAC + preamp. I was trying to check if this was something audiophiles would dream of because I think it is but the ones I see out there are not very good quality. There's a DAC, a "fully featured" one from Essence with HDMI but the quality is mediocre from my point of view. Would it make sense to want a fully featured DAC with professional grade quality aka Nagra level? Do you think an HDMI feature should be in DACs?

I have more questions and I honestly don't know where to begin so I'm trying here.

Any thoughts, comments appreciated.

audiostudent1
There are a number of "branches" in the audio hobbyist tree. I will attempt a pencil sketch here and will probably get hate mail for doing so. This is all opinion. For you AH members, don't send me hate mail.

There are those who are purists and buy equipment that is purpose built for a specific task. Those are the guys who buy separates: monoblock amps, standalone pre-amps, dedicated devices for a specific task. The fewer the features, the more dedicated to a single task, the more desirable a product becomes to this branch of the tree.

Another branch is pretty much the opposite: put as many features and functions in one device as possible and have everything at your fingertips. The Audio Visual Reciever (AVR) is the poster child of this group. Flexibility, connectivity, power and every feature under the sun is the hallmark of this branch.

Then there's the newest group: and I don't know what to call it other than its small, its portable, its inexpensive and everything is wireless. Think of a guy at a laptop and that's the center of everything along with his smartphone and headphones.

There is also the legacy audio branch. Old school. Tubes. If you put tubes in it, this group will buy it and love it because of its "warm sound". Lots of folks have legacy audio equipment, stuff that's 20 years old and older, and they love it. Its analog. Its heavy. And it isn't going away, nor are peoples affections for it going away.

The last group I would identify is the poor guy who buys his stuff at a big box store under his wife's baleful stare. This guy buys Home Theater in a Box (HTIB) stuff and products like Bose systems because that's what big box stores sell and what his wife will let him take home because its cheap. Many members of this group come to forums like this one and ask why their home sound system stinks.

Your question is not whether or not a better mousetrap needs to be invented (a better DAC), but who is your target market and would anyone care? Of the groups in this audio tree, who would care about a new and improved DAC from a company nobody has heard of?

One of the hurdles you will face, and its not a tiny one, is a simple engineering problem. A well engineered DAC is transparent. Its invisible. It does not color, shade, or cast a viewpoint on the sound. How do you sell invisible as a feature?

I am climbing off my soapbox now. All of this post is 100% opinion.
No actual audio hobbyists or their viewpoints were injured in the expression of this opinion.
I gotta go do some useful work now.

 

[audiostudent1]

Thank you for your reply. If you have an engineering student involved in this project, I would certainly be prepared to enter into to a discussion and offer him every assistance. I will not offer any advice to an MBA or any type of marketer.

I also have a degree in precision mechanics. But I also want my family's company to survive so some business education is not so bad. Fun fact: marketing is my worst subject so far but understanding people (consumers) is quite interesting.

Also, would like to share that I take no offense in your "comments" about MBAs (though I was a bit thrown off guard)--I'm not an "MBA" or these people you have low opinions of, I haven't ruined any tech or engineering so far. In fact, our company makes high end audio equipment. I'm just a curious person asking (not always) annoying questions.

Thanks for the time. will not bother you now...

 

[audiostudent1]

Bucknekked

Thank you! Appreciate it

 

[audiostudent1]

I took the survey, because I have a friend in Switzerland, and I like the country, and also I am just screwing around while waiting for a call. National goodwill has done you a favor here, swiss citizen.

Merci beaucoup!!!!

 

[MrBoat]

I have some suggestions, without taking the survey. If you manage to build a DAC, that does exactly what a DAC should do, no more, no less, please don't follow the current hype shtick. The type that is aimed at the mentality of 10 year olds. Be honest with what it does. As soon as someone like me sees that, I will not buy it. It's 2017. We're supposed to be much more evolved than what we are. Marketing, as we know it now, is making us all look like the stupid people that fall for the hype if we buy products that includes this as part of their approach. Because of that, I cannot buy products with such associations. I instead, buy used stuff, build my own, or do without. I can't be caught falling in with those who believe stupid things.

 

[Diesel57]

AH isn't a forum to conduct a census or a place to probe nor survey for marketing purposes, maybe that's not your intent but your intro and your interest doesn't express other wise. The knowledge & experience along with A+ support that resides here in AH embraces the new, the visitor and of course the members with sincere solutions for one's concerns and interest for audio...

 

[PENG]

As soon as i saw MBA student, that counted you out from ANY help from me. MBAs and marketing types have been the absolute ruination of all tech and engineering. Things were much better before we had your ilk.

Designers and engineers need to be in charge all the way. Unfortunately you guys have had the whip hand far too long and caused severe problems in product design.

My strong advice to you is to find another line of work and get out of our hair.

Agree in general, unfortunately too many engineers felt they had to get their MBA in order to get ahead. Science and technology would have been further ahead if good engineers are paid much higher and respected more (maybe even like doctors) without getting into Senior Management positions. Only then we can expect more good engineers, not just someone with a degree.

One of the survey question asked which store in Switzerland..... You can choose others, but I think they still expect a Swiss company name. Seems strange..

 

[audiostudent1]

For the record, I had no intent to "market" a product--though personally, the concept of marketing which is creating value for customers, is not so abhorrent as popular opinion here communicates. I am sorry you all seem to have negative experiences with "marketing" but I have not, nor do I have the intention to, bring technology or engineering on their knees for the sake of creating a "hype" or some other deceptive product.

My interest in audio is not about finding and combining audio equipment to create my "perfect" sound--I've done that already and I'm quite satisfied with my system. My concern is keeping the industry alive so that audio manufacturers who do what they do for passion can survive and continue what they are doing. In a perfect world, they can create and develop audio equipment which audiophiles and generally other consumers will enjoy and find use for, without having to "market" these things. However, appreciation for sound quality that is not mediocre or "good enough" is not common and though the exclusivity of this appreciation is appealing, in reality it is discouraging our engineers, inventors and manufacturers to keep up the business. Is this exclusive group worth the losses, the frustrations and the bankruptcy threatening these small, specialized audio companies at every turn?

What has kept the industry alive is people like you in this forum who have the knowledge, the appreciation and the passion. I was attempting to understand directly from you. However, the method of doing so was "naive" and inappropriate, etc., as has been made clear in previous comments. In the future, I will create something which hopefully others will find useful but how I can find out what you would want/need/like or dislike will not be answered here.

I will not apologize again for the rookie mistake...I think the field day on my post has been enough punishment, thank you.

I genuinely appreciate you taking time to share your thoughts. I wish the approach to reprimanding a newcomer was not as harsh or cruel as I felt after reading your comments. Perhaps I need to be made with sterner stuff to take what people from this forum will throw at me...

Rest assured, I will not be tainting this forum with any other "marketing" activities (though once again, this was not the point). Thank you AH forum, for the experience. I cannot say I enjoyed it but it was definitely a learning experience.

I will not be part of the forum any longer so I will not be taking anymore of your time. If you wish to lash out to make yourself feel better (I mean it in the most genuine way possible), feel free to do so in this thread but the person you are directing it to will no longer receive it so perhaps that satisfaction from alienating someone online will not be as good as expected.

Au revoir.

 

[Mikado463]

As soon as i saw MBA student, that counted you out from ANY help from me. MBAs and marketing types have been the absolute ruination of all tech and engineering. Things were much better before we had your ilk.

Designers and engineers need to be in charge all the way. Unfortunately you guys have had the whip hand far too long and caused severe problems in product design.

My strong advice to you is to find another line of work and get out of our hair.

what a bunch of crap, not sure what rock you've been living under but to just poo-hoo someone with an MBA ??

For the record Mr "engineer' , I've been in the railroad industry for 43 years and I can tell you an engineering undergraduate degree paired up with an MBA opens more doors than you can probably imagine !

Both of my sons are engineers, both with their PE's , my daughter inlaw has her MBA preceded by an engineering degree so your generalized statement to which I quoted tells me that you're probably an old fart out of touch with reality .....