Receiver or speaker distortion?

[Andrein]

Hi.

I got 4.2 system. A8600 receiver, 2x proac 148, 2x proac 118, 2x svs sb2000. Noticed that for some content when there is a spyke in loudness i get short sounds which i think is distortion. Was thinking initially it is due to the content but getting this in movies and classic and rock. But once in 3-4 days. Spike of something millisec long and then all fine again.

My question is who is creating this distortion? Any way to find out? The level i am listening is not too high -25-28db.

Thanks,
Andrei.

 

[sterling shoote]

Could be clipping. This is when the speaker is driven to hard by too little power. Turn the system volume down and play same material to hear if distortion goes away. Also, if it is indeed clipping the distortion will occur at abput the same point in time on the same media every time you play that selection. That's to say, it will repeat itself, so, re-playing distorted portions of the media at lower volume will confirm clipping if all is well at the lower volume.

 

[Andrein]

Looks like the issue is repeatable for the same content. So is it a receiver? There was an article on audioholics about a860 and appeared its real max output is 35w mult channels.

 

[Andrein]

Also distortion if this is what it is is happenning in midrange.

 

[sterling shoote]

O.K., Does turning volume down end distortion? If so, then you probably do not have enough power to play at the levels you would like to enjoy your music.

I have a JBL B380 passive subwoofer, which needs a lot of power. When I put this sub into my system I thought that a Sony TA-N55ES 100 watt stereo power amp operating in bridged mode to produce 300 watts would easily power it. I was wrong. Listening to movies at a cinema experience volume, the sub clipped. Do you know what a 15 inch clipping sub sounds like? It sounds like a sledge hammer whacking a steel pylon. It's just awful. I replaced the TA-N55ES with a TA-N80ES operating in bridged mode at 570 watts. This was enough power to drive the sub at a volume sounding life like. At any rate, if your receiver has pre-outs you can buy a power amp to get rid of the clipping, bypassing your receivers amplification, or of course, another more powerful receiver would work too if your budget permitted it.

 

[Andrein]

The thing is my 2 subs are both active so not pulling much power from receiver. Heard that a860 has distortion spike at 1khz. Even in preouts. If i decide to buy new amp. Will 5x200 monolith work with a860? Will it help with distortion?

 

[sterling shoote]

The thing is my 2 subs are both active so not pulling much power from receiver. Heard that a860 has distortion spike at 1khz. Even in preouts. If i decide to buy new amp. Will 5x200 monolith work with a860? Will it help with distortion?

Well, if your receiver is indeed not enough power for speakers, then, of course, integrating a powerful amp would help with clipping distortion; but, why not confirm clipping before you do anything by playing at lower volume? Remember, clipping is just one of a multitude of problems you could have which may not be recognizable through a forum such as this.

 

[TLS Guy]

The thing is my 2 subs are both active so not pulling much power from receiver. Heard that a860 has distortion spike at 1khz. Even in preouts. If i decide to buy new amp. Will 5x200 monolith work with a860? Will it help with distortion?

Most of the power required is from 80 Hz to 2.5 KHz and NOT in sub range. It is pretty clear to me you are seriously under powered. To double the loudness for you however would require a 350 watt amp, as you need to up power 10 times to double the loudness.

 

[highfigh]

O.K., Does turning volume down end distortion? If so, then you probably do not have enough power to play at the levels you would like to enjoy your music.

I have a JBL B380 passive subwoofer, which needs a lot of power. When I put this sub into my system I thought that a Sony TA-N55ES 100 watt stereo power amp operating in bridged mode to produce 300 watts would easily power it. I was wrong. Listening to movies at a cinema experience volume, the sub clipped. Do you know what a 15 inch clipping sub sounds like? It sounds like a sledge hammer whacking a steel pylon. It's just awful. I replaced the TA-N55ES with a TA-N80ES operating in bridged mode at 570 watts. This was enough power to drive the sub at a volume sounding life like. At any rate, if your receiver has pre-outs you can buy a power amp to get rid of the clipping, bypassing your receivers amplification, or of course, another more powerful receiver would work too if your budget permitted it.

If the sound was accompanied by wild cone excursion, it's not clipping, it's either oscillation or the frequencies sent to the sub were below the port tuning frequency. I saw the same when I worked at a stereo store and we got the same model of sub- with almost anything made by a typical electronics manufacturer, it did this when pushed hard and it finally stopped when I connected a Soundcraftsman power amp.

Neither of those amplifiers should have a problem with that sub at a moderate level as long as the settings for the sub are correct, but I would look at the signal going to the power amp (literally, on a scope). I would also go into the menu to look at the equalization and level settings- if the sub level is +10 and 20Hz, 32Hz and 40Hz are boosted, this is a huge red flag, especially is the level is also boosted.

If you want to use this sub, use a pro amp with DSP, so you can limit the low frequency response, limit the peaks and make sure the power is adequate. A sub with a dedicated amplifier isn't as easy as using an all in one sub.

 

[lovinthehd]

I wouldn't think it's clipping at a volume level of -25 to -28dB. This was repeatable at lower volume levels? Then it would seem to be inherent in the source IMO. Clipping can be recorded so what exactly is the content/source this is happening with?

 

[Andrein]

Ok.

I could repetably reproduce the issue in 1-2 places in 1st concert by Chaikovskij, then Roxette, some movies in the beginning as i said at about -25-28 db. So at lower level i cant reliably reproduce the problem or at least my ear does not hear it. Most of content csn be played at higher volume without noticible distortion. I hear the issue just 1-2 times per week. The worst thing is you never know when this happens. I normally dont listen the same thing twice s week. To me the issue is very annoying as the 50% of the reason to build this system was to not have distortion.

 

[Andrein]

Also to me it does not sound like an issue with sub. I got in receiver -6db against sub. No low freq boost or anything like that.

 

[lovinthehd]

Ok.

I could repetably reproduce the issue in 1-2 places in 1st concert by Chaikovskij, then Roxette, some movies in the beginning as i said at about -25-28 db. So at lower level i cant reliably reproduce the problem or at least my ear does not hear it. Most of content csn be played at higher volume without noticible distortion. I hear the issue just 1-2 times per week. The worst thing is you never know when this happens. I normally dont listen the same thing twice s week. To me the issue is very annoying as the 50% of the reason to build this system was to not have distortion.

Might want to post up the specific tracks and time when you hear these for others to check. How are you sourcing these tracks?

 

[Andrein]

No. Using CDs. Ok. Tomorrow will find a couple of examples.

 

[sterling shoote]

Since you stated the subs were active, I would not expect that those are an issue; and, you have confirmed that. Now, -28db, which you said was a typical high volume level, would rock the rafters with my system set at that level. I have 100 watts per channel on mains, center and surrounds and even with that kind of power into very, very, efficient ported speakers, it would likely be heard as sounding too loud. It might even be a bigger problem if I initially set my volume level too high on media with a very high dynamic range manifesting to a crescendo at some point after setting volume level. My speakers just don't produce that kind of spl without sounding somewhat stretched. So, at any rate, I still believe you have a clipping problem. The rate of incidence supports this. But, just playing the material over again at a lower level upon hearing the distortion should, forgive the pun, clear up the matter.

 

[Andrein]

All my 4 speakers are ported with sensitivity 89 and 91db respectively. Not highest values in the world but still. Also 4x100 nominal watts. And it is quite loud at -25DB.

I will find some movie from recent i watched on netflix where i heard the problem and let you guys know exact second where it happens. So maybe some of you could check on your system.

 

[sterling shoote]

You might want to get info on the RMS per channel power. You earlier alluded to it being actually 35 watts, not 100 watts, is that right. Now, if you identify your receiver make and model, I don't know what an A8600 is, contributors here will have better advice for you. Also, you earlier said -25db was not too high, I assume not too high is referring to perception of loudness; but, in your last post you said your sense was that -25 was quite loud. This confuses me. One more thing, don't do experiments with movies you are streaming, do your experiments with DVDs and CDs. All you need to do, and I've said this earlier, is just isolate distorted passage at the high volume level and play that passage back at lower volume and see if the distortion goes away. That will give you a better idea if this is clipping, damaged speakers, defective recording, or a multitude of other things. In other words, you might best be served to seek advice from the receiver and speaker manufacturers.

 

[Andrein]

Ok.

By not too loud i meant that room is not shaking and my tower watch is not resonating))) something which happened when i tried 0-10db. By the way the songs i listened at ref level did not create this distortion. Loud enough means that i dont really need to go further to feel all frequencies in music and effects in movies. It is like optimal level to me.

Yamaha Aventage a860 according to spec is 7.2 receiver 100w each measured with 2 ch. But audioholics tested it and result was more like 35w mult channels with reasonable distortion values.

Hope i explained it all better now.

I decided to use netflix because this way diff people would be able te check exactly the same content on their systems. I cant share my CDs with you guys and the same thong on diff CDs can sound differently. I wrote before that the same passage with lower volume generates less or no distortion.

Since you stated the subs were active, I would not expect that those are an issue; and, you have confirmed that. Now, -28db, which you said was a typical high volume level, would rock the rafters with my system set at that level. I have 100 watts per channel on mains, center and surrounds and even with that kind of power into very, very, efficient ported speakers, it would likely be heard as sounding too loud. It might even be a bigger problem if I initially set my volume level too high on media with a very high dynamic range manifesting to a crescendo at some point after setting volume level. My speakers just don't produce that kind of spl without sounding somewhat stretched. So, at any rate, I still believe you have a clipping problem. The rate of incidence supports this. But, just playing the material over again at a lower level upon hearing the distortion should, forgive the pun, clear up the matter.

You might want to get info on the RMS per channel power. You earlier alluded to it being actually 35 watts, not 100 watts, is that right. Now, if you identify your receiver make and model, I don't know what an A8600 is, contributors here will have better advice for you. Also, you earlier said -25db was not too high, I assume not too high is referring to perception of loudness; but, in your last post you said your sense was that -25 was quite loud. This confuses me. One more thing, don't do experiments with movies you are streaming, do your experiments with DVDs and CDs. All you need to do, and I've said this earlier, is just isolate distorted passage at the high volume level and play that passage back at lower volume and see if the distortion goes away. That will give you a better idea if this is clipping, damaged speakers, defective recording, or a multitude of other things. In other words, you might best be served to seek advice from the receiver and speaker manufacturers.

 

[lovinthehd]

Since you stated the subs were active, I would not expect that those are an issue; and, you have confirmed that. Now, -28db, which you said was a typical high volume level, would rock the rafters with my system set at that level. I have 100 watts per channel on mains, center and surrounds and even with that kind of power into very, very, efficient ported speakers, it would likely be heard as sounding too loud. It might even be a bigger problem if I initially set my volume level too high on media with a very high dynamic range manifesting to a crescendo at some point after setting volume level. My speakers just don't produce that kind of spl without sounding somewhat stretched. So, at any rate, I still believe you have a clipping problem. The rate of incidence supports this. But, just playing the material over again at a lower level upon hearing the distortion should, forgive the pun, clear up the matter.

Curious, with Sony equipment how do you determine a volume level of -28dB? AFAIK Sony avrs don't use this type of volume scale, or was ES series unique in this regard?

In any case -28dB on the master volume (about 57 dB average level with peaks up to 77 dB for material adhering to such standard) isn't particularly loud IMO nor uses up a lot of amp power; OP with his speakers is likely at less than 1W at such levels, hardly clipping territory for his amp even with an extreme peak. Assuming calibrated and using source/material that used such standard.

 

[lovinthehd]

Ok.

By not too loud i meant that room is not shaking and my tower watch is not resonating))) something which happened when i tried 0-10db. By the way the songs i listened at ref level did not create this distortion. Loud enough means that i dont really need to go further to feel all frequencies in music and effects in movies. It is like optimal level to me.

Yamaha Aventage a860 according to spec is 7.2 receiver 100w each measured with 2 ch. But audioholics tested it and result was more like 35w mult channels with reasonable distortion values.

Hope i explained it all better now.

I decided to use netflix because this way diff people would be able te check exactly the same content on their systems. I cant share my CDs with you guys and the same thong on diff CDs can sound differently. I wrote before that the same passage with lower volume generates less or no distortion.

CDs should be the same for the same issue, so you'd need to be specific as to label and specific catalog number to get the same recording. Netflix may not be as easy to compare....