20% Tax on Items from Mexico to pay for wall...

[ATLAudio]

You're right. They don't stop planes, nor boats and subs, nor tunnels. The Coast Guard can take care of the sea and I suspect technology can provide approaches for the rest.

As far as illegals not receiving social benefits, not all benefits are a result of social security. Education comes to mind. So does medical assistance. Increased services such as fire, police, erc. have to keep pace. Someone has to pay. While I don't discount the positive contributions to the overall economy, it comes at a cost. There's an info graphic at this site that looks to estimate this cost by state.

Yes, by airplanes (or just walking through a checkpoint), via legal travel visa, and then they simply overstay their visa. Which is what the majority of illegals have done. A wall won't stop this one iota. Remember what Patton said, "Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of mankind."

Your biased, and historically uncredible source only seeks to make me more comfortable in my disagreement.

 

[Chu Gai]

How about the billions they pump into our own economy? That you read the crap like Rich Swier spouts explains a lot.

A wee bit brusque and dismissive. I'm assuming then you've got data or studies that substantially refute what's contained in the link. Please present it.

I've heard the illegal contribution is on the order of agents of a percent or so.

 

[Chu Gai]

Yes, by airplanes (or just walking through a checkpoint), via legal travel visa, and then they simply overstay their visa. Which is what the majority of illegals have done. A wall won't stop this one iota. Remember what Patton said, "Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of mankind."

Your biased, and historically uncredible source only seeks to make me more comfortable in my disagreement.

I also want to see those who've overstayed their visas deported back to their countries, I'm also assuming that you have data that substantially refutes that within the link.

Patton said a lot of things like this,

To me it seems certain that the fatalistic teachings of Muhammad and the utter degradation of women is the outstanding cause for the arrested development of the Arab. He is exactly as he was around the year 700, while we have kept on developing.

Thoughts?

 

[TheWarrior]

@Chu Gai
So you acknowledge that even illegal immigrants contribute to our economy, yet you feel spending billions in order to deport millions of people is a good decision, economically, or morally?

You ignore both the additional funds paid into our tax system by granting citizenship, while ignoring the families that are being ripped apart with deportation. Who's side are you on? Cause that line of thinking has you spinning in a circle!

 

[highfigh]

The war on drugs is mostly to blame for this circumstance. I've lost one of my best friends to heroin, and it wasn't due to the Mexicans, it was his own problem as likely were the two you're referring to....or perhaps even their parents'....I have no idea though and sounds like you don't either. Drugs come in from all over, and Customs is fairly ineffective now and in the past at doing much about it. Drug law reformation would do far more good than a wall ever will.

PS I've lived a lot closer to the border than you, spent many years in southern as well as northern California; grew up in a Chicago suburb, too.

So, he grew and processed his own poppies? How is the ferrying of drugs from Mexico NOT a problem with Mexico? Sorry to read about your friend but easy access and low cost make people try drugs they normally wouldn't and when it comes to a drug that's as highly addictive as heroin, even a very strong person can be lost.

I have spent a lot of time in CA (relatives) and AZ (friends)- drugs make people do bad things, whether it's because they deal or use. I don't think that making these chemicals legal will cure the problem- it will help with part of it, but not all. Meth & Heroin destroy people to a degree that booze doesn't.

Unfortunately, I just lost most of this post due to the site being updated but I have known a lot of people who were lost to drugs AND booze. At that point, does it really matter which was legal?



http://www.friendsofnarconon.org/drug_distribution_in_the_united_states/arizona_drug_facts/arizona_factsheet/

 

[highfigh]

@Chu Gai
So you acknowledge that even illegal immigrants contribute to our economy, yet you feel spending billions in order to deport millions of people is a good decision, economically, or morally?

You ignore both the additional funds paid into our tax system by granting citizenship, while ignoring the families that are being ripped apart with deportation. Who's side are you on? Cause that line of thinking has you spinning in a circle!

It would be impossible to go to a new country and not spend money. If that's what you consider a good thing, maybe you should look at what they cost us.

 

[Chu Gai]

@Chu Gai
So you acknowledge that even illegal immigrants contribute to our economy, yet you feel spending billions in order to deport millions of people is a good decision, economically, or morally?

You ignore both the additional funds paid into our tax system by granting citizenship, while ignoring the families that are being ripped apart with deportation. Who's side are you on? Cause that line of thinking has you spinning in a circle!

Throughout this, my comments have been directed towards those here in this country illegally regardless how they got here. I have always acknowledged there is a positive contribution by them as a whole towards the overall economy specifically focusing on contribution to the GDP. But that only presents one side of the story. A more honest assessment is to estimate what their cost to society is.

I don't believe in open borders, a fluidity f you will. I disagree with just granting them citizenship while there have been many who are going through the legal process and still waiting for their number to come up, hence, iprather that object to the link I provided earlier you tell me what the cost of illegal aliens is to this country. If you don't have one, say so. If nothing else exists, then why not? Rep. Guttierez who is such a staunch illegal proponent could better make his case with data.

 

[lovinthehd]

A wee bit brusque and dismissive. I'm assuming then you've got data or studies that substantially refute what's contained in the link. Please present it.

I've heard the illegal contribution is on the order of agents of a percent or so.

No more brusque and dismissive as that site or his sources. Can't figure out what you last sentence is trying to say...."the illegal contribution is on the order of agents"? Agents?

 

[Chu Gai]

What I meant to say is that the illegal contribution to the GDP is estimated on the order of a tenth of a percent or so.

So you don't like the link nor where the data came from. Fine. I've asked you repeatedly to present what you consider to be a better estimation. Present it already.

 

[lovinthehd]

What I meant to say is that the illegal contribution to the GDP is estimated on the order of a tenth of a percent or so.

So you don't like the link nor where the data came from. Fine. I've asked you repeatedly to present what you consider to be a better estimation. Present it already.

You can ask all you want, I don't have the resources nor the inclination. Why don't you prove they're right?

I've read more often that their contribution is greater than their cost...can you prove that's wrong?

 

[ATLAudio]

I also want to see those who've overstayed their visas deported back to their countries, I'm also assuming that you have data that substantially refutes that within the link.

Patton said a lot of things like this,
Thoughts?

"I also want to see those who've overstayed their visas deported back to their countries"
Ok, sure, we can change the subject, but first things first. Do you admit that since most illegals came here legally with a visa that a wall will do very little since they just overstated their visas?

"I'm also assuming that you have data that substantially refutes that within the link."
No, this is shifting burden of proof. You used a source which I dismiss. It's your responsibility to prove your claims, and support your sources; not mine. Once again, choosing said source only seeks to make me and others more comfortable in our shared disagreement with your claims.

"Patton said a lot of things"
Ok, before we go into his quote that you mentioned, do you agree with the one I gave? I don't find yours particularly relevant to a Mexican border wall. I do find mine relevant to building a fixed fortification because it is a fixed fortification.

 

[everettT]

IMHO everything that happens after the law being broken is irrelevant. Either we enforce laws or we don't. Selective enforcement opens all this debate up. It's the politicians, that keep getting elected ,responsibility to either make new law, ammend law, or enforce, none of which are being done.
JMTC

 

[ATLAudio]

IMHO everything that happens after the law being broken is irrelevant. Either we enforce laws or we don't. Selective enforcement opens all this debate up. It's the politicians, that keep getting elected ,responsibility to either make new law, ammend law, or enforce, none of which are being done.
JMTC

Enforcement of laws is checked by constant judicial interpretation. I am very grateful for this arrangement. The enforcement of laws is not black and white.

 

[lovinthehd]

IMHO everything that happens after the law being broken is irrelevant. Either we enforce laws or we don't. Selective enforcement opens all this debate up. It's the politicians, that keep getting elected ,responsibility to either make new law, ammend law, or enforce, none of which are being done.
JMTC

So no laws are being enforced? Looks like plenty are being deported. BTW the chumpster changed the focus from prioritizing deportation of the most dangerous to have priority to just low lying fruit (to pump up the numbers? make it easier on Customs/ICE? or ? ).

 

[Chu Gai]

You can ask all you want, I don't have the resources nor the inclination. Why don't you prove they're right?

I've read more often that their contribution is greater than their cost...can you prove that's wrong?

You can use a search engine. Maybe find a site that looks to dispute the numbers. But more to the point, why haven't there been several studies that look to out a number on it? Maybe the answer(s) would be uncomfortable so it's a lot easier to play on people's emotions - ripping families apart, they want a better life, they work hard, whatever. But not having the onclination, that's a dodge.

Since you've read more often that their contribution is greater than their cost, then point me to the links.

 

[lovinthehd]

You can use a search engine. Maybe find a site that looks to dispute the numbers. But more to the point, why haven't there been several studies that look to out a number on it? Maybe the answer(s) would be uncomfortable so it's a lot easier to play on people's emotions - ripping families apart, they want a better life, they work hard, whatever. But not having the onclination, that's a dodge.

Since you've read more often that their contribution is greater than their cost, then point me to the links.

Of course I could, but as I said I'm not going to. Why don't you do it instead of relying on right wing nut blogs? Wouldn't change my mind on the wall one way or the other.

You can google as well as I can...

 

[MR.MAGOO]

IMO the Wall will never be built. Environmentalists will have a fit because jackrabbits and mice won't be able to freely traverse the border. Simply move some military bases there and make the border area a no-man's land and weapons testing area. Defund the United Nations, kick the occupants out of the NY HQ and convert it to homes for the homeless, add an abortion clinic and sex change clinic and the liberals will love it.

 

[Steve81]

A more honest assessment is to estimate what their cost to society is.

Given that the immigrants in question tend to be relatively poor in addition to often being "underground", it's probable that more tax revenue is spent on them than they themselves pay into the system. Even the CBO was willing to state that much back at the end of 2007:

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8711/12-6-immigration.pdf

The tax revenues that unauthorized immigrants generate for state and local governments do not offset the total cost of services provided to those immigrants. Most of the estimates found that even though unauthorized immigrants pay taxes and other fees to state and local jurisdictions, the resulting revenues offset only a portion of the costs incurred by those jurisdictions for providing services related to education, health care, and law enforcement. Although it is difficult to obtain precise estimates of the net impact of the unauthorized population on state and local budgets (see Box 1), that impact is most likely modest.

Thinking about the issue a little further, that statement appears to only take into account the taxes the immigrants themselves pay, and not the taxes the employers would pay on account of their additional economic activity (that additional revenue being reaped with a cheap labor rate to boot). That would presumably tighten the tax gap a bit as well.

I disagree with just granting them citizenship while there have been many who are going through the legal process and still waiting for their number to come up

I disagree with just granting citizenship like its a cheese sample at the grocery store as well. OTOH, there has to be some kind of middle ground between that and "kick them all out now", which has its own associated costs/problems. Work visas along with associated fines for being undocumented for X number of years seems like a better path forward to me.

 

[Chu Gai]

"I also want to see those who've overstayed their visas deported back to their countries"
Ok, sure, we can change the subject, but first things first. Do you admit that since most illegals came here legally with a visa that a wall will do very little since they just overstated their visas?

Well, you're the one who brought up visas. Most illegals entered through Mexico I haven't seen the particulars about the wall but in conjunction with robust enforcement I think it'll be effective. Not 100% but then neither are the doors and locks in your house.

"I'm also assuming that you have data that substantially refutes that within the link."
No, this is shifting burden of proof. You used a source which I dismiss. It's your responsibility to prove your claims, and support your sources; not mine. Once again, choosing said source only seeks to make me and others more comfortable in our shared disagreement with your claims.

Dismiss it all you want but I expected you to have something in the way of data that substantially challenges it. So if by claims you mean those here illegally are a net economic benefit then you need more than simple disagreement.

"Patton said a lot of things"

Ok, before we go into his quote that you mentioned, do you agree with the one I gave? I don't find yours particularly relevant to a Mexican border wall. I do find mine relevant to building a fixed fortification because it is a fixed fortification.

I think a robust wall will provide a substantial impediment. So will ending catch and release. I like the Patton quote but it's not applicable in this situation. The pope doesn't like it but then Vatican City has a pretty substantial wall, metal detectors and guards at entrances. Obama doesn't like it but the house he moved into had higher fences put in and of course he hasSecret Service protection. Zuckerberg doesn't like it but he bought up all the properties around him where he lives. He's also looking to force out people in the several hundred acres he bought in Hawaii.

 

[Chu Gai]

@Stev81
A lot of people are working off the books. That doesn't mean that citizens or people here in this country legally aren't doing the same. Shadow economy and all that.

Will be interesting to see what transpires in Canada. Already some cities are looking to the national gov't for aid.