Martin Logan Electrostatics

[MR.MAGOO]

Now I'm looking at ads for this ML ElectroMotion ESL speaker. Wondering if it will make a major improvement to the front sound stage in my setup. Have not yet been able to actually listen to a pair of electrostatics. Should there be concerns over speakers which have paper cones vs. other types. And what do they mean by paper? My listening area is only 12x12 with 9' ceiling height.

 

[shadyJ]

MLs have a certain sound. Some people really like it. There are ML dealers all over the place, so it should be pretty easy to go demo some of their stuff. Use their dealer locator to see what is closest to you.

And paper cones can sound just fine. Don't buy into the hype that type X design is utterly superior to type Y design. They all have their trade-offs.

 

[TheWarrior]

I do not like ESL's. It's a neat experience, and they look cool as hell, but the sound is almost always compromised with panel resonances that color the sound. For the thousands of dollars they command, far better performance can be had elsewhere!

 

[KEW]

They have a unique sound character. That sound may really float your boat... or maybe not.
Definitely a "you need to try before you buy" item.
Also, a caution - they are seductive - both in sound and look; however, if you stay mesmerized by (and, thus, focused on) the unique aspect of the sound character you might end up taking these home before you really listen critically to the whole package.
My biggest complaint was (don't remember the song) hearing detail of the singers lips smacking (for want of better word) at 2-3' away while the voice was 9' away.
If they went for $2000/pr instead of 6?-10k/pair (for the ones I looked at), there is a good chance I would have a pair in my home, because there is a lot to like and the "cool factor" is exceptional!

 

[tyhjaarpa]

I have heard those ML speakers and I must say that I prefer my R500 over them any day. They have some nice things in their sound detail but some how I felt that the sound I was getting was little thin at some areas but in some areas it was really detailed how ever. Biggest problem for me personally was how narrow the listening area for those speakers is.. When you look the speaker you would think they have really wide listening area by the shape of them but this is not the case. So definitely go audition these before buying and try them at home as well so you wont regret it later. Would like to experience some higher models from ML but they are not locally available for me.

 

[everettT]

With the lower end of ELS panels, I'd skip them. With the mid to higher end they still are placement dependent so if you can't meet those requirements, I'd look elsewhere. If the criteria for placement fits, then consider your music, as their Speakers don't do well with hard rock or poor recordings as they can be very revealing. Just listen to them under the right conditions

 

[MR.MAGOO]

The ML's I was looking at were 34" tall, about $2500 / pair. I think it's their 'entry-level' option in electrostats. They claim it's a good choice for small / medium sized rooms but that could be the Marketing Dept. talking!. My listening area is only about 12' x 12' with 9' ceiling.

 

[Pogre]

I listened to some ML's not too long ago. I wasn't impressed. They weren't terrible, but I think you could do much better for the money. One thing I noticed that kind of turned me off was the way the highs disappeared when I stood up. Vertical dispersion seems to be not so hot with these electrostats.

 

[shadyJ]

I listened to some ML's not too long ago. I wasn't impressed. They weren't terrible, but I think you could do much better for the money. One thing I noticed that kind of turned me off was the way the highs disappeared when I stood up. Vertical dispersion seems to be not so hot with these electrostats.

Vertical dispersion is not so hot with a lot of speakers. Electrostats can have particularly poor vertical dispersion because of comb filtering.

 

[MR.MAGOO]

Thanks for the info! Just for the heck of it maybe I will visit Magnolia/Best Buy and see if they have any to listen to. It's only a mile away.

 

[KEW]

Vertical dispersion seems to be not so hot with these electrostats.

Yeah, I had listened to higher level models recently, but this was the biggest issue with the ones I listened to about 5 years ago (sorry, don't remember model).
When I stood up, the entire (and magnificent) sound stage collapsed.
More recent and more expensive models get around this by simply being taller.
Because they are curved in the horizontal, side to side was not so bad, but as soon as your ears get above the top of the panel, there is no real dispersion in that direction.

Unless I am completely wrong in my understanding of comb filtering, I don't believe that is the issue. As I understand it, the sound is coming from all of the film, not the discrete areas which cause a comb effect, so I would liken it to having a very large full-range driver. It is true that most ML electrostats have a woofer mounted at the bottom, but the sound I heard collapse involved the higher frequencies.

Please correct me if I am mistaken about comb filtering!

 

[TLS Guy]

I guess we need to visit ESLs again.

My two big problems with the MLs are that a monopole bass unit can not be matched with a dipole ES panel. I'm constantly aware of the crossover point when I listen to them.

Now ML does use large panels with no crossover and despite the curve they still beam. That is because the panels have a width much larger then the HF wavelengths. This is a huge problem due to using large single panels.

So lets go back to the first ELS. Peter Walker's Quad 55, introduced in 1955. This unit had bass and treble panels and was altered with the introduction of stereo in 1959. Read the interview with Peter Walker where he highlights all the difficulties.

So Peter thought about the problem and realized that if you put a thin tightly stretched plastic film across a room, sounds were perfectly transmitted from one side of the room to another. So the plastic film was the perfect reproducer! So he set about studying that membrane and found sound passed through the membrane like ripples on a pond.

So the ESL 63, the year of its introduction in 1963, had a single membrane with radial electrodes etched into it driven from delay lines. This solved the beaming and accurately phased the speaker.

This is still the only speaker that will produce a square wave in free space and be able to cancel it in free space when the phase of one speaker is reversed. I had a personal demonstration of this from Peter Walker.

You can read the stereophile review of the ESL 63 here.

If you really like and want an ESL get a Quad!

 

[shadyJ]

Most of these electrostatic speakers are not one giant single membrane moving as a whole. There are usually sections dealing with certain frequency bands. You can see comb-filtering artifacts in any measurements of electrostatic speakers in stereophile, et al. Also, the open dipole nature of the speaker makes it susceptible to comb filtering from rear reflections.

Edit: TLSguy beat me to it. Also, I have heard lots of electrostat speakers, and, whatever combing issues they have had, they all sounded pretty good to me, although some better than others. Quads sound very nice. One of my favs were some giant-ass Sound Labs.