Can Power Conditioners Degrade Performance?

Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Okay, first a disclaimer:

I have read numerous threads on both this forum and many other places on the web, and this post isn't intended to open up the decades-old debate on whether or not power conditioners or any variety x,y,z surge protector improves system performance. That topic has been beat to the ground and I am in agreement that at best whatever "benefits" are achieved in terms of picture or sound quality are either the result of a.) confirmation bias or b.) an actual improvement if the incoming line voltage is sufficiently poor in quality that a conditioner may actually help. Personally I think they are expensive, pretty looking power strips and not much more. A way for manufacturers to make more money on the back-end, after consumers have already spent thousands on their nice amps, TV's, etc., that will likely keep them from buying more gear for a long time. I think most average consumers buy nice things with the intent of keeping them for a while and just enjoying their systems. But this of course fails to make additional money for those who make the stuff we buy... to an extent (see also: golden arrow of consumption :D).

Yet, despite the vast array of threads out there on the topic, I have not seen many people, if at all, ask another simple question: We all here (mostly) agree that power conditioners, UPS's, etc., don't really do much to improve system performance, but can lesser ones actually degrade performance?

The reason I ask this is because with all the poking around I've done lately behind my rack, I've had to plug/unplug things a lot from my current little power conditioner, which is of meager build and price. It's an APC AV-C5, long discontinued. Not a very large device, I basically got it for one main reason. It's slim profile lets me tuck it underneath my rack and the outlets are on the side vs. the top, so all my plugs go in horizontally from the bottom. This makes for a much more tidy look and keeps things orderly and out of sight. So it's had me thinking about power reliability and given that I live in Florida where lightning is very common and where I experience all too frequent blinks in my power (even when the weather isn't bad; I come home to find flashing clocks a LOT), I was considering better protecting my latest big investment in home theater gear with a more robust UPS-based device. So naturally I'm comparing specs and prices and such.

The little APC I have now is a unit that has sat underneath my rack for many years and I rarely, if ever, even think about it. It's never given me any problems (at least that I'm aware of). But out of sheer curiosity I decided I'd look up the specs on this old thing just because I never really bothered to look when I bought it. On both the APC and CNET sites (CNET just mirrors the APC specs) it rates it only for current output, at 15A. One other site claims a spec of power output capability in terms of 330W (which I could not verify/confirm anywhere). The device's manual, I believe, is intentionally vague... stating, and I quote: "The C5 is rated for 15 Amps. The C5 is capable of supplying the dynamic peak current draws required by any component designed to work on a 15A circuit. Despite their nameplate power ratings, high performance AV equipment draw much less than their listed power ratings. The C5 can inform the user how much of the power capacity is available as equipment is connected to the unit." ----Except that it really only has an overload indicator LED, and an LED to indicate that it is filtering. I'm not sure I have the biomechanical telepathy powers needed to aurally communicate with this device in order for it to tell me this information that it supposedly offers. *Shrug*. I never needed to know anyway.

Nevertheless, my brain got to churning over this. Could lesser conditioners actually sap power from your system? Could they limit what gets through to your amps to some extent? Can those that are of the "lighter" variety like mine not be quite sufficient at maintaining a full load under the system's most demanding transient conditions, especially if they are higher end AVR's and amps? I think this is a legitimate question to ask and not one I've seen asked that much. We debate over how much improvement one can make (or not make) in PQ/SQ, but rarely have I seen one raise this question and I've yet to see a sufficient answer to the question when they do.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Not sure where that 330W could have come from.
I would think it is simple. It delivers 15A at 120V or whatever is at the input plug.

Then, I'd question the fuse type, slow blow or fast acting. The slow blow would withstand higher peak, short duration currents.

So, in the end, it should deliver 1800 watts.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Okay, first a disclaimer:

I have read numerous threads on both this forum and many other places on the web, and this post isn't intended to open up the decades-old debate on whether or not power conditioners or any variety x,y,z surge protector improves system performance. That topic has been beat to the ground and I am in agreement that at best whatever "benefits" are achieved in terms of picture or sound quality are either the result of a.) confirmation bias or b.) an actual improvement if the incoming line voltage is sufficiently poor in quality that a conditioner may actually help. Personally I think they are expensive, pretty looking power strips and not much more. A way for manufacturers to make more money on the back-end, after consumers have already spent thousands on their nice amps, TV's, etc., that will likely keep them from buying more gear for a long time. I think most average consumers buy nice things with the intent of keeping them for a while and just enjoying their systems. But this of course fails to make additional money for those who make the stuff we buy... to an extent (see also: golden arrow of consumption :D).

Yet, despite the vast array of threads out there on the topic, I have not seen many people, if at all, ask another simple question: We all here (mostly) agree that power conditioners, UPS's, etc., don't really do much to improve system performance, but can lesser ones actually degrade performance?

The reason I ask this is because with all the poking around I've done lately behind my rack, I've had to plug/unplug things a lot from my current little power conditioner, which is of meager build and price. It's an APC AV-C5, long discontinued. Not a very large device, I basically got it for one main reason. It's slim profile lets me tuck it underneath my rack and the outlets are on the side vs. the top, so all my plugs go in horizontally from the bottom. This makes for a much more tidy look and keeps things orderly and out of sight. So it's had me thinking about power reliability and given that I live in Florida where lightning is very common and where I experience all too frequent blinks in my power (even when the weather isn't bad; I come home to find flashing clocks a LOT), I was considering better protecting my latest big investment in home theater gear with a more robust UPS-based device. So naturally I'm comparing specs and prices and such.

The little APC I have now is a unit that has sat underneath my rack for many years and I rarely, if ever, even think about it. It's never given me any problems (at least that I'm aware of). But out of sheer curiosity I decided I'd look up the specs on this old thing just because I never really bothered to look when I bought it. On both the APC and CNET sites (CNET just mirrors the APC specs) it rates it only for current output, at 15A. One other site claims a spec of power output capability in terms of 330W (which I could not verify/confirm anywhere). The device's manual, I believe, is intentionally vague... stating, and I quote: "The C5 is rated for 15 Amps. The C5 is capable of supplying the dynamic peak current draws required by any component designed to work on a 15A circuit. Despite their nameplate power ratings, high performance AV equipment draw much less than their listed power ratings. The C5 can inform the user how much of the power capacity is available as equipment is connected to the unit." ----Except that it really only has an overload indicator LED, and an LED to indicate that it is filtering. I'm not sure I have the biomechanical telepathy powers needed to aurally communicate with this device in order for it to tell me this information that it supposedly offers. *Shrug*. I never needed to know anyway.

Nevertheless, my brain got to churning over this. Could lesser conditioners actually sap power from your system? Could they limit what gets through to your amps to some extent? Can those that are of the "lighter" variety like mine not be quite sufficient at maintaining a full load under the system's most demanding transient conditions, especially if they are higher end AVR's and amps? I think this is a legitimate question to ask and not one I've seen asked that much. We debate over how much improvement one can make (or not make) in PQ/SQ, but rarely have I seen one raise this question and I've yet to see a sufficient answer to the question when they do.
In order to provide a credible response, I would like to know the make and model number of the unit.
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Not sure where that 330W could have come from.
I would think it is simple. It delivers 15A at 120V or whatever is at the input plug.

Then, I'd question the fuse type, slow blow or fast acting. The slow blow would withstand higher peak, short duration currents.

So, in the end, it should deliver 1800 watts.
That's exactly what I was thinking. I found it again. It was on amazon's listing for the item. So take that with a big grain of salt obviously.
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
In order to provide a credible response, I would like to know the make and model number of the unit.
I did mention it, buried in my verbosity lol.

APC AV-C5 unit.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I did mention it, buried in my verbosity lol.

APC AV-C5 unit.
So I did miss it then.:D I downloaded and read the manual for the C5 but not sure if it is AV-C5

http://www.apc.com/salestools/ASTE-6Z7V9U/ASTE-6Z7V9U_R0_EN.pdf

and

http://www.markertek.com/Attachments/Specifications/APC/C2-Specifications.pdf

It seems that it is rated 12A, not 15A. It is a simple MOV (Metal Oxide Varistor) based unit so there is no it should be basically transparent under normal operating condition. Something like that I would replace it after say 5-10 years regardless, just to be on the safe side. If the unit is properly fuse protected then you can run it until it fails, or still replace it after X number of years.
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
So I did miss it then.:D I downloaded and read the manual for the C5 but not sure if it is AV-C5

http://www.apc.com/salestools/ASTE-6Z7V9U/ASTE-6Z7V9U_R0_EN.pdf

and

http://www.markertek.com/Attachments/Specifications/APC/C2-Specifications.pdf

It seems that it is rated 12A, not 15A. It is a simple MOV (Metal Oxide Varistor) based unit so there is no it should be basically transparent under normal operating condition. Something like that I would replace it after say 5-10 years regardless, just to be on the safe side. If the unit is properly fuse protected then you can run it until it fails, or still replace it after X number of years.
Yep that's the one. There's a similar C10 unit but I have the C5. I think the 330w thing I saw was just erroneous information. It doesn't even make any sense.

That being said I'm still curious in general if any of these so-called power conditioners can actually be a detriment? Not particularly mine. I've used it for years with no issues.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Yep that's the one. There's a similar C10 unit but I have the C5. I think the 330w thing I saw was just erroneous information. It doesn't even make any sense.

That being said I'm still curious in general if any of these so-called power conditioners can actually be a detriment? Not particularly mine. I've used it for years with no issues.
The 330w thing is not from APC. I think Amazon got it mixed up with the typical 330V that is the conformance to the UL1449 TVSS rating. Depending on the design, some may have minor negative effects on amp performance. Yours is fine.
 
MR.MAGOO

MR.MAGOO

Audioholic Field Marshall
I think Amazon got it mixed up
Amazon gets a lot of things mixed up. I ordered two audio racks and they charged me for two but only sent one. Now I'm fighting with them to un-mix it up! :mad:
 
MR.MAGOO

MR.MAGOO

Audioholic Field Marshall
From what I gather after reading about APC's and Panamax devices, they are just glorified fuses, designed to 'commit-suicide' while preventing dangerous voltage (lightning) spikes from frying your AV gear.
 
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