NAD T 765 upgrade in audio performance

[thxbest]

I have a NAD T 765 HD Receiver, the new model from 2013 with HD Audio (VM100/AM100) Modular Design Construction (MDC). I have an offer from my colleague who wants to buy the unit for $770. The reasons I bought the NAD was because I wanted the best audio performance available in an AVR.

So my questions:

1-Is the offer strong enough to let the unit go?

2-What unit at a price range of USD 800 (used unit) can outperform the NAD T765?


Thank you guys for advice.

 

[PENG]

If it is usd 800, you can sell it and then wait for the Demon AVR-x4200w to go back to $799 brand new. The 765 is heavier but the Denon will give you more power in real world applications.

 

[thxbest]

If it is usd 800, you can sell it and then wait for the Demon AVR-x4200w to go back to $799 brand new. The 765 is heavier but the Denon will give you more power in real world applications.

The most important factor is the audiophile sound quality that the NAD unit provides, not the features, so what unit will sound more audiophile than NAD?

 

[PENG]

The most important factor is the audiophile sound quality that the NAD unit provides, not the features, so what unit will sound more audiophile than NAD?

Well, I have compared my AVRs to my 2 channel systems that are more audiophile than any NAD AVR and I can tell you that the so called audiophile gear don't always translate into audibly better sound quality. Another member, ADTG who also owned several high end preamp/amps, will tell you the same. He still owns the top of the line $7,500 Denon AVP-AVHDCI prepro.

I am familiar with the sound of NAD integrated amps but admittedly have not auditioned their AVRs. Their amps sounded neutral and accurate, nothing special or artificial, nor should they be.

Take a look of the following output vs distortions graphs for two ex flag ship AVRs.

Denon AVR-4520CI

This graph shows that the AVR-4520CI’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 172.6 watts and 1% distortion at 190.7 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 237.5 watts and 1% distortion at 287.1 watts.
Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-4520ci-av-receiver-test-bench#so8bCeMRpHd4tbZd.99

NAD T787

This graph shows that the T 787’s left channel, from A1 input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 152.7 watts and 1 percent distortion at 184.5 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1 percent distortion at 180.1 watts and 1 percent distortion at 207.1 watts.
Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/content/nad-t-787-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures#81zYQSPsvKKG5YF8.99

The Denon performed better on the bench even for the 4 ohm load. Denon also did better in the noise figures (XT and SN).

No doubt there are other factors beside THD+N, but if any of those factors are key to better sound quality, more so than THD, IMD, SN, cross talk etc., then they should be measurable and published. Without bench test data, we are left with subjective reviews. So if the NAD sounds better to you and you believe in subjective reviews then you may consider Arcam, maybe even Anthem's. I know Arcam's older class AB amps sounded sweet but not sure about their newer ones since they have gone the digital way. As long as you want to stick with the "audiophile" thing, $800 probably won't get you anything better than your T765 though. I have the feeling you are going to end up keeping your T765.

 

[thxbest]

@PENG Thanks for your post.

Is $770 for the T765 a good offer to sell or not?

 

[PENG]

@PENG Thanks for your post.

Is $770 for the T765 a good offer to sell or not?

To me it is a good offer. when I bought my AVR-4308, I was offered C$300 for my AVR-3805 that was 3 years old at the time. I've since replaced the 4308 with the Marantz AV7005 and then AV8801, each time the surround effects became more satisfying and the bass performance improved when Audyssey is on so there was some gain with the technological advance. In pure direct or stereo music mode with sub off, none sounded any better.

By the way, I resisted the C$300 offer for the old AVR, now 10 years later I am using it to drive a pair of KEF L50. I am so happy with the sound quality I am getting from this 13 years year old AVR that I don't even bother hooking them back up to my separates. I can't say it sounds exactly the same as my Halo or SST amp, but I can it is hard to pick the winner. So to me, $770 is a good price because you should be able to get something else (used) for much less. My only concern is, if you are attach to it for whatever reasons, then you may not like its replacement, unless it is another NAD. Why are you even considering selling it anyway? You said features are not important, even if it is, you can always keep the T765 for stereo music enjoyment. Like my 3805, if used it for 2 channel, it will beat most integrated amps except the ones near the top end.

 

[MrBoat]

To me it is a good offer. when I bought my AVR-4308, I was offered C$300 for my AVR-3805 that was 3 years old at the time. I've since replaced the 4308 with the Marantz AV7005 and then AV8801, each time the surround effects became more satisfying and the bass performance improved when Audyssey is on so there was some gain with the technological advance. In pure direct or stereo music mode with sub off, none sounded any better.

By the way, I resisted the C$300 offer for the old AVR, now 10 years later I am using it to drive a pair of KEF L50. I am so happy with the sound quality I am getting from this 13 years year old AVR that I don't even bother hooking them back up to my separates. I can't say it sounds exactly the same as my Halo or SST amp, but I can it is hard to pick the winner. So to me, $770 is a good price because you should be able to get something else (used) for much less. My only concern is, if you are attach to it for whatever reasons, then you may not like its replacement, unless it is another NAD. Why are you even considering selling it anyway? You said features are not important, even if it is, you can always keep the T765 for stereo music enjoyment. Like my 3805, if used it for 2 channel, it will beat most integrated amps except the ones near the top end.

The guy who gave me the 3805 had forgotten about 2 channel listening until he came over to my house and heard what his old AVR was doing. Meanwhile, his new rig is mostly being used for nickelodian at normal volume and by the time his kids are off of it, it's their bedtime and he can't listen to it anyway.

So now, he's looking to set up an out of the way 2 channel system in a spare room where he can get his fix, but now, he's having to come over to my house and jam out with 'his' old 3805. He said that the back of 'his' AVR looks stupid here with only 7 of the holes plugged up. lol

He had no idea that this could be used just for the amps. First time he heard it here, I had it hooked up to a pair of older 3 way JBL's and the puzzled look on his face was priceless. "That's my old Denon???" I offered it back to him because I found another just like it in as good of condition. The real truth is, his wife made him thin down his collection and he can't be caught bringing it back in anyway.

I'll gladly finish my musical days using up these older, capable AVR's for 2.1-2 listening.

 

[ski2xblack]

Good info, everyone.

Peng, one thing that I wonder about, and this is probably splitting hairs given the similar power numbers, but I would be curious to know how the Denon would perform for IHF dynamic power specs. NAD has some power supply trickery they refer to as "powerdrive" which is a variation of class G/H, and they do publish IHF specs for the OP's unit, specifically 160 @8, 260@4, and 360 @2 ohms. For dynamic signals, seems the Denon and the OP's NAD are very close for all practical purposes.

$770 is a great price. I would feel slightly guilty selling a used AVR for so much.

 

[PENG]

Good info, everyone.

Peng, one thing that I wonder about, and this is probably splitting hairs given the similar power numbers, but I would be curious to know how the Denon would perform for IHF dynamic power specs. NAD has some power supply trickery they refer to as "powerdrive" which is a variation of class G/H, and they do publish IHF specs for the OP's unit, specifically 160 @8, 260@4, and 360 @2 ohms. For dynamic signals, seems the Denon and the OP's NAD are very close for all practical purposes.

I will double check this when I get home. Going by memory, the NAD will win by a wide margin in those very short duration power output specs and bench test results. It may even beat Yamaha's.

 

[PENG]

Dynamic power into 8/4/2/1 ohm (from lab measurement data I saved)

Denon AVR-3805 - 183.9W @ 0.586%/307.5W@1.1%/299.9W@0.9%/160.3W@0.8%

NAD T765 - 198.5W @ 0.584%/356.5W @ 0.874%/456.9W @ 0.54%/Fail

For dynamic power out test, we are probably talking duration in the order of
20 ms, so this rating could be important if:

- Room dimensions, sitting distance and required spl combination demands power output that exceeds the AVR's rated capability, when the media content has dynamic peaks of 20 dB or more.
- The speaker has impedance dips below 4 ohms and listening to music that has contents with frequencies associated to those dips, and has 20 dB or more peaks. That is, all the stars are aligned.

IMO it is mostly about trade off and balancing act. Given a budget, they simply cannot pack all the good things in the same box. Yamaha seems to value 2 channel and dynamic output more. NAD appears to offer superior dynamic capability, above average ACD and 2 channel output capability. Denon and Marantz seems to be in the middle in everything. IMO, HK (the older class AB ones) seems to have picked the worse strategy.

 

[3db]

I will double check this when I get home. Going by memory, the NAD will win by a wide margin in those very short duration power output specs and bench test results. It may even beat Yamaha's.

Whaaaaaaaat? Just kidding. Couldn't resist

 

[PENG]

Whaaaaaaaat? Just kidding. Couldn't resist

No kidding, you know I favor Yamaha too. On the other hand, if you do an apple to apple shoot out based on 20 milli second or so short dynamic outputs into 2 to 4 ohms, NAD will likely narrowly beat Yamaha. I don't find such limited capability useful either. I put more value in the "continuous (a minute of 2?)" output into 4 ohms. On that count, Yamaha, D&M generally do better than NAD even if the NAD costs much more.