Stereo amps Vs AVRs

[whiplash]

I think this discussion would have more relevance if it stuck to a specific quality level.

If both pieces are under say $500 I don't see how one could possibly sound better unless the amp section is better and the speaker is hard to drive.

If we're talking say over $2000 per unit I'd really hope an integrated amp at that price would have better amp section than a receiver in that price range. Will it matter? I would say that totally depends on the speakers and their difficult ohm loads.

I will say that from personal experience the only thing that has ever made my system sound better is better speakers...

Well, for my speakers, the integrate amp made a HUGE difference. I'm sure with better speakers will be another HUGE difference, but to say the amp do not matter just the speakers, that's more than an insane thing. However, I cleared those who still say an AVR have the same audio quality like an integrate one, and here we talk about in the same range price, not one with $500 and another one with $2000.
You can still believe the integrate do not make the difference and be happy with him I really don't care, and what you can't "take me away", is the fact cause I "see" the huge difference between the 2 and I'm very SATISFIED.

 

[PENG]

Well, for my speakers, the integrate amp made a HUGE difference. I'm sure with better speakers will be another HUGE difference, but to say the amp do not matter just the speakers, that's more than an insane thing. However, I cleared those who still say an AVR have the same audio quality like an integrate one, and here we talk about in the same range price, not one with $500 and another one with $2000.
You can still believe the integrate do not make the difference and be happy with him I really don't care, and what you can't "take me away", is the fact cause I "see" the huge difference between the 2 and I'm very SATISFIED.

I have to agree with you on this and I am happy to know you are happy with the results you are getting from your $4000 (list price?) amp. No one can take that away from you. On the other hand, some of us who believe in what is audible should be identifiable by measurements (and the technologies involved are not rocket science) are entitled to feel free to express their own opinions and share their experience.

So people from both camps are simply expressing their opinions, some supported by measurable and even quantifiable facts and data, while others are based mostly on subjective observations and opinions, such as "I can hear the difference so easily, so should you"..... kind of talk. Such debate is, as ADTG said, futile.. So let's all be happy to share our different opinions and experience. One can try to convince, but not nice to try and impose their own opinions on others.

 

[Dave Blount]

I have to agree with you on this and I am happy to know you are happy with the results you are getting from your $4000 (list price?) amp. No one can take that away from you. On the other hand, some of us who believe in what is audible should be identifiable by measurements (and the technologies involved are not rocket science) are entitled to feel free to express their own opinions and share their experience.

So people from both camps are simply expressing their opinions, some supported by measurable and even quantifiable facts and data, while others are based mostly on subjective observations and opinions, such as "I can hear the difference so easily, so should you"..... kind of talk. Such debate is, as ADTG said, futile.. So let's all be happy to share our different opinions and experience. One can try to convince, but not nice to try and impose their own opinions on others.

good reply PENG, I agree !

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Such debate is, as ADTG said, futile..

You know which movie I was thinking about when I wrote that?

Star Trek: "Resistance is futile".

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It's not just about one component. It's the entire SYSTEM that counts (Amps/Preamps + Speakers + Room).

All I can say is that my $5,500 AVR sounds TONS better and BLOWS AWAY any cheap $4K integrated amps.

Don't EVEN talk about my $7,500 Preamp + $10,000 of amps because they DESTROY any cheap $4K integrate amp.

And what kind of speaker system are we talking about here because my $30,000 speaker system will totally annihilate any speaker system that costs less than that, dude.

In fact, my $30K speaker system will MAKE a $400 AVR sound better than a $4K integrated amp + $2K speaker system.

It's quite simple mathematics really.

 

[PENG]

Agree, price is the best indicators , for some people..

 

[Dave Blount]

It's not just about one component. It's the entire SYSTEM that counts (Amps/Preamps + Speakers + Room).

All I can say is that my $5,500 AVR sounds TONS better and BLOWS AWAY any cheap $4K integrated amps.

Don't EVEN talk about my $7,500 Preamp + $10,000 of amps because they DESTROY any cheap $4K integrate amp.

And what kind of speaker system are we talking about here because my $30,000 speaker system will totally annihilate any speaker system that costs less than that, dude.

In fact, my $30K speaker system will MAKE a $400 AVR sound better than a $4K integrated amp + $2K speaker system.

It's quite simple mathematics really.

LMAO ........the sad reality is some poor sap actually would believe that !

 

[whiplash]

It's not just about one component. It's the entire SYSTEM that counts (Amps/Preamps + Speakers + Room).

All I can say is that my $5,500 AVR sounds TONS better and BLOWS AWAY any cheap $4K integrated amps.

Don't EVEN talk about my $7,500 Preamp + $10,000 of amps because they DESTROY any cheap $4K integrate amp.

And what kind of speaker system are we talking about here because my $30,000 speaker system will totally annihilate any speaker system that costs less than that, dude.

In fact, my $30K speaker system will MAKE a $400 AVR sound better than a $4K integrated amp + $2K speaker system.

It's quite simple mathematics really.

You're too "full" of yourself. I think even a kid can know that, I mean when you have $30k speakers it's big f....g difference between speakers which cost $2000. Here the point was with the same speakers how is the sound with an AVR and a integrate amp in the same range of price +/-.

 

[whiplash]

I have to agree with you on this and I am happy to know you are happy with the results you are getting from your $4000 (list price?) amp. No one can take that away from you. On the other hand, some of us who believe in what is audible should be identifiable by measurements (and the technologies involved are not rocket science) are entitled to feel free to express their own opinions and share their experience.

So people from both camps are simply expressing their opinions, some supported by measurable and even quantifiable facts and data, while others are based mostly on subjective observations and opinions, such as "I can hear the difference so easily, so should you"..... kind of talk. Such debate is, as ADTG said, futile.. So let's all be happy to share our different opinions and experience. One can try to convince, but not nice to try and impose their own opinions on others.

I agree with you, is true, it's better to say your opinion and stop there, make no sens to impose their own opinions to others. But you still don't want to understand I didn't payed so much on my integrate amp I payed 2500 euros, which I think is like $2700 +/-.

 

[Dave Blount]

You're too "full" of yourself. I think even a kid can know that, I mean when you have $30k speakers it's big f....g difference between speakers which cost $2000. Here the point was with the same speakers how is the sound with an AVR and a integrate amp in the same range of price +/-.

hey Whip, you do realize he was being 'funny' don't you ?

 

[PENG]

But you still don't want to understand I didn't payed so much on my integrate amp I payed 2500 euros, which I think is like $2700 +/-.

I understood you did not pay $4000 because if I remember right, you mentioned you were getting a good deal. Didn't you notice what I put in bracket ()? I did not want to ask how much you actually paid because I thought if you wanted to share that information you would have done so already. Any, at $2,700, that's a little more than 30% discount, seem like a good deal if the list price is in fact around $4000.

Your response seem a little confrontational for no apparent reasons, but I hope it is just the language thing.

 

[panteragstk]

Well, for my speakers, the integrate amp made a HUGE difference. I'm sure with better speakers will be another HUGE difference, but to say the amp do not matter just the speakers, that's more than an insane thing. However, I cleared those who still say an AVR have the same audio quality like an integrate one, and here we talk about in the same range price, not one with $500 and another one with $2000.
You can still believe the integrate do not make the difference and be happy with him I really don't care, and what you can't "take me away", is the fact cause I "see" the huge difference between the 2 and I'm very SATISFIED.

You must not have understood the point of my post.

To put it simply:

If you have a $4k integrated amp and a $4k AVR they should (in theory) have processing and amplification that are equal to each other.

Same with a $500 integrated amp and a $500 receiver.

If you are coming from a $500 receiver to a $4k integrated amp and make a blanket statement that integrated amps are better, then you aren't making an accurate comparison.

 

[whiplash]

You must not have understood the point of my post.

To put it simply:

If you have a $4k integrated amp and a $4k AVR they should (in theory) have processing and amplification that are equal to each other.

Same with a $500 integrated amp and a $500 receiver.

If you are coming from a $500 receiver to a $4k integrated amp and make a blanket statement that integrated amps are better, then you aren't making an accurate comparison.

Seems, some price are very different from Europe to US. To be clear, my AVR is 1499 euro and the integrate amp is 2700 euro here in EU. Yes, it's a big difference of price, almost twice.

 

[lovinthehd]

I understood you did not pay $4000 because if I remember right, you mentioned you were getting a good deal. Didn't you notice what I put in bracket ()? I did not want to ask how much you actually paid because I thought if you wanted to share that information you would have done so already. Any, at $2,700, that's a little more than 30% discount, seem like a good deal if the list price is in fact around $4000.

Your response seem a little confrontational for no apparent reasons, but I hope it is just the language thing.

I think I introduced the US 4k price on it somewhere as was best deal I could find (and just the base unit IIRC, the seller wanted more for the modules whiplash got included, too).

 

[panteragstk]

Seems, some price are very different from Europe to US. To be clear, my AVR is 1499 euro and the integrate amp is 2700 euro here in EU. Yes, it's a big difference of price, almost twice.

In that case I would be upset if it didn't sound better.

 

[whiplash]

One of the big difference between the two, is, with the integrate one I "have" like having several rows of seats, I mean "the instruments" who sing in the same time, I have the impression they are not on a single row like I have with the AVR, maybe that is called stage? If yes, with the integrate one I have a wonderful stage, with the AVR is like having one row in the entire stage. You can distinguish much better the instruments between them, and the sound have more depth. I dunno if someone will can understand my explication, but hope so someone will can "translate" my explication for the others.

 

[ski2xblack]

The sonic image is an illusion created by the information contained in the source material, and everything else is a potential hurdle to be overcome (think speaker power response, dynamic range capabilities; amp limitations; the biggie, the room's influence...) The best imaging is realized in near-field type arrangements, where the room's influence doesn't have the chance to mess things up too much. The more you deviate from near-field listening, the more the influence of the room comes into play, reflecting more of the speaker's overall power response than direct, on axis response. Good speakers are key as a starting point, "good" meaning those which pay attention to off axis response, etc. (FWIW, I think your speakers are just fine, if not copacetic with cheapo AVR power for your particular listening habits.)

On top of that, you're also using RoomPerfect. Automagic eq schemes will make adjustments based on the measurements taken during the setup process. RoomPerfect could be doing any number of things, from eq'ing raw response, to applying phase shifts, to who knows what else, effecting changes which your ears seem to like. It's hard to say without digging into the nitty gritty of RoomPerfect and what it does (that may be a topic worthy of further discussion, to help find out where RoomPerfect falls in relation to the Audysseys, YPAOs, and the rest).

 

[RichB]

It's a bit off-topic, but here are measurements taken at the 9 Dirac recommended positions from my listening distance; 12 feet from the speakers in a 30 foot room.

The OmniMic2 measures differences above 350 Hz are huge. I also have similar measurement with the EMM-1, UMIK-1, and EMM-6 Mics.

IMO, this is clear evidence that above the Schroeder frequency (about 250Hz), are all over the place. Mic's are more sensitive than our ears. These measurements were taken with the Salon's in Pure Direct mode.
It's a mess at higher frequencies and I have a decent room.

BTW, the OmniMic2 does not show a big dip at 800Hz. I don't want software messing with these frequencies. I also experimented with setting Dirac limited to below 30Hz and switching between Pure Direct and Dirac and the sound field was noticeably different; even though the measurements tracked pure direct very well. I listen to stereo but calibration software does not.

Most people use these systems, rerun often changing mic positions until they like the calibration results. The software predictive results are marvelous and they like it. Objectivists could make a good argument about expectation bias

Below Schroeder Mics are all more consistent so adjustments can be more consistent. I have the best results, just using PEQ below 80Hz. It's not sexy, but it may all that's needed.

- Rich

 

[whiplash]

The sonic image is an illusion created by the information contained in the source material, and everything else is a potential hurdle to be overcome (think speaker power response, dynamic range capabilities; amp limitations; the biggie, the room's influence...) The best imaging is realized in near-field type arrangements, where the room's influence doesn't have the chance to mess things up too much. The more you deviate from near-field listening, the more the influence of the room comes into play, reflecting more of the speaker's overall power response than direct, on axis response. Good speakers are key as a starting point, "good" meaning those which pay attention to off axis response, etc. (FWIW, I think your speakers are just fine, if not copacetic with cheapo AVR power for your particular listening habits.)

On top of that, you're also using RoomPerfect. Automagic eq schemes will make adjustments based on the measurements taken during the setup process. RoomPerfect could be doing any number of things, from eq'ing raw response, to applying phase shifts, to who knows what else, effecting changes which your ears seem to like. It's hard to say without digging into the nitty gritty of RoomPerfect and what it does (that may be a topic worthy of further discussion, to help find out where RoomPerfect falls in relation to the Audysseys, YPAOs, and the rest).

Even with RoomPerfect Off I have more stage than the AVR, or sonic image like you called. And on the AVR I used Audysseys as well. But it's true, with RoomPerfect Off I don't like the sound, it's much more "hard" much more bass.