How much will I need to spend to go a step up in quality for home theater use?

[yonyz]

Hi,

I currently have a pair of JBL Studio 230s as fronts, a DIY sub and a pair of KEF KHT-3005 as surrounds.

Let's focus on the two front speakers: since they also act as the phantom center channel, they're the most important. What are some DIY kits (components+front baffle) that will be a definite step up for home theater use, over the JBLs I currently have?

Also, is there a point where you think it's pointless to spend more for home theater sound? Because as I understand it, for music listening, you can always do better.

 

[roadrune]

Not knowing either your speakers or your room, i would bet the best upgrade is acoustics.

 

[ARES24]

I don't have any personal experience with those speakers either but I think a good center channel is quite important for movie viewing. A lot of what you hear comes from the center.

I would suggest looking for a center DIY up to your criteria if you use your system for HT. For a mostly music stand point with HT is a distant second, forgo the center.

Most importantly, what is YOUR budget! We can spend it all!

 

[MrBoat]

What is it that you don't like about what you currently have?

I have older JBL speakers and they sound fantastic. I ventured further just for fun and to learn more of the advances that have been made since I started on this hobby 40 years ago.

One thing is for certain. It is easy to overspend. Here's a link to a DIY site. Along with the kits there, are pdf files with notes from the designers. It's a good place to get your feet wet with understanding what mindset these guys are working from. How driver price reflects quality and cost. I just ordered a kit from there. I read all the other entries. It will get you familiar with some of the popular names in the DIY culture.
http://meniscusaudio.com/kits-c-133.html

 

[lovinthehd]

Are you still in Israel?

 

[yonyz]

ARES24: I still haven't decided for or against a center speaker. I always sit in the sweet spot. I was told to test my setup with and without a center speaker, but I don't feel like spending $500 or so on a center channel just to find out.

I do not have a set budget, I'd like to first know the cost of DIY components for something that will beat the JBL 230 in quality.

MrBoat: I actually like my speakers a lot. Problem is, when I watch movies in reference volume (Audyssey calibration), occasionally there are high frequency sounds that almost hurt, and I'm certain they're not meant to do that by the audio engineer. Maybe it is acoustics, because when I tried the trial of Dirac Live, the sound was pretty much perfect.

I checked the website you linked and the problem is that they sell kits without front baffles. I don't have the tools to make them myself.

loveinthehd: Yes.

 

[roadrune]

If it is possible, you should try some absorbents in the firstreflection points, this can help quite a lot.
Since Dirac helped that suggest big room for aprovement acousticly.

Also Dirac atenuate the treble and amplify the bass a bit.

 

[MrBoat]

ARES24: I still haven't decided for or against a center speaker. I always sit in the sweet spot. I was told to test my setup with and without a center speaker, but I don't feel like spending $500 or so on a center channel just to find out.

I do not have a set budget, I'd like to first know the cost of DIY components for something that will bit the JBL 230 in quality.

MrBoat: I actually like my speakers a lot. Problem is, when I watch movies in reference volume (Audyssey calibration), occasionally there are high frequency sounds that almost hurt, and I'm certain they're not meant to do that by the audio engineer. Maybe it is acoustics, because when I tried the trial of Dirac Live, the sound was pretty much perfect.

I checked the website you linked and the problem is that they sell kits without front baffles. I don't have the tools to make them myself.

loveinthehd: Yes.

I manually EQ my speakers. Some music I listen too are a bit high on a couple different sets of speakers and I know what to expect. Perhaps that is one area you might want to investigate as an improvement to your experience.

Honestly, I didn't direct you to that link 'for' the kits as much as the write-ups and what to look for or a path of investigation. Otherwise, your initial inquiry was liken to the question of say; "How long is a piece of rope?" The only safe answer being; "Twice as much as half it's length."

 

[yonyz]

I manually EQ my speakers. Some music I listen too are a bit high on a couple different sets of speakers and I know what to expect. Perhaps that is one area you might want to investigate as an improvement to your experience.

Honestly, I didn't direct you to that link 'for' the kits as much as the write-ups and what to look for or a path of investigation. Otherwise, your initial inquiry was liken to the question of say; "How long is a piece of rope?" The only safe answer being; "Twice as much as half it's length."

Dirac Live does much more than EQ...

 

[ski2xblack]

Dirac may be a great effort at auto eq, but it won't increase the dynamic range of your speakers.

Thus far, you have only specified that your speakers have problems when pushed to reference levels, indicating you need speakers with wider dynamic range capabilities. I strongly suspect you're pushing that small woofer into break-up when listening loudly, resulting in the painful high frequency sounds.

Shipping is probably cost prohibitive for the few places that sell kits with baffles that I'm familiar with, but fwiw diysoundgroup.com sells kits with baffles. Their kits are solid designs, generally speaking, although I only have personal experience with the Fusion 12 Tempests.

 

[yonyz]

Dirac may be a great effort at auto eq, but it won't increase the dynamic range of your speakers.

Thus far, you have only specified that your speakers have problems when pushed to reference levels, indicating you need speakers with wider dynamic range capabilities. I strongly suspect you're pushing that small woofer into break-up when listening loudly, resulting in the painful high frequency sounds.

Shipping is probably cost prohibitive for the few places that sell kits with baffles that I'm familiar with, but fwiw diysoundgroup.com sells kits with baffles. Their kits are solid designs, generally speaking, although I only have personal experience with the Fusion 12 Tempests.

I mentioned reference volume because it's my default for movies. TV shows - around -10db.
These speakers should be able to handle 150W RMS - my AV receiver is rated at 80W, and I never push it to the max (it goes to +11db). It's a 3x3 meter room, I will go deaf before I max these speakers.
Also, as mentioned, I didn't have this problem when running the Dirac trial. Everything was so smooth and pleasant.

 

[ski2xblack]

Unfortunately, those volume numbers are arbitrary and don't tell much. There are an awful lot of variables involved. For example, those numbers are not calibrated. Even if you only push your AVR up to 50% of it rated capacity you may be running out of headroom. How loud you listen, speaker sensitivity, distance to your listening position, etc. all come into play. And on top of that, competing automagic eq methods being applied.

On the good side, your speakers sport good design and measurements, always a good starting point as they'll not require much if any "correction", and Dirac further improves things to your ears. I'm not sure what else you're trying to do with the existing kit, but it seems that it's time to start enjoying the music.

Trying to figure out how much it would take to get a significant step up in quality when you already have respectable kit is difficult to determine. Perhaps a case study would help. Your situation is similar to MrBoat's, where he had (still has) some quite respectable speakers as a baseline, and in order to find something that did everything they could do as well or better he went with a diy kit that goes for about $900. The closest corresponding commercial product to what he built, few that they are, go for thousands of dollars. Your starting point is a bit more modest with the little studio 230, so you have lots of options.

I applaud your curiosity into the diy approach, the value proposition can't be beat. But there are still questions to answer before figuring out what your best course of action will be.

 

[MrBoat]

Dirac Live does much more than EQ...

Yes, I noticed. More damage to your ears, by the sound of it. Ever notice that the majority of troubleshooting on the audio internet revolves around software?

 

[lovinthehd]

One note about volume controls and the power output, many avrs use a dB scale, a logarithmic scale, not a percentage of power available. Just because your avr has a certain rated output at a given THD level, doesn't mean your avr cannot exceed that power level with higher THD or clipping, and the max output on the volume dial doesn't necessarily line up with that rated output, it could be far less depending on your speakers the volume control has been calibrated with (especially with lower sensitivity speakers). Keep in mind every 3dB increase on such a volume control is doubling the power, it may not take long before you run out...

I was also going to suggest diysoundgroup kits as being good candidates for what you want to do but could get very expensive, here's what Erich there has on his FAQ for the question of international shipment:
" I get a great discount from FedEx and pass the discount on to you. My discount is only good inside the USA, but you can still order from this site if you are in another country. Many people ask me to send their packages to companies called 'Shipping Forwarders'. When that company gets your package, they will ship it to you because they get better international shipping rates. There are many shipping forwarders in the USA such as JetCarrier, Shipito, Stackry, Ship Happens, etc."

As a former international freight forwarder (the correct terminology) and customs broker myself, I'm not familiar with any of the forwarders he mentioned (but have been out of the business for a few years). However, such forwarding can get fairly expensive quickly depending on several factors. You might inquire with one based in Israel as to what they can do, but also check out Fedex rates as for small packages they sometimes can offer a pretty decent all inclusive deal of forwarding and customs brokerage.

 

[ARES24]

I realize it will be difficult to do but I have found that doing a couple DIY builds actually helps determine the things you like in speakers in the same way that demoing speakers at the store does.

I will say that I enjoy the speakers that I have built far more than the ones I have heard in store of similar type, yes some of the tower speakers sounded better then my speedsters.

It is possible that I have to go to better AV stores and listen to high end sound systems in better rooms but I am confident that I won't be able to buy anything comparable in sound quality for anything less then all of the DIY projects that I have done to date.

As for volumes I try to hammer into people that if the speakers are good it never seems to sound loud unless you are being obscene. Please be cautious, ears get hurt even when you don't feel it.

 

[MrBoat]

You need to spend as much as it takes to do it right. Especially if it's a passion. I can see myself saving up for as long as it takes to buy what I want. I honestly do not understand the notion of a set "budget" with regard to such things, or such short term thinking.

I am looking at and considering kits that cost upwards of a thousand dollars or more. Some people literally 'piss' that away in a few months time on designer coffee.

I afford this passion now because I gave up cigarette smoking 4 years ago. This is my cigarette money. I could buy 3 expensive speaker kits in a year's time just on that wasted expenditure alone.

 

[yonyz]

OK, I think I'll stick to my JBLs for a little longer. Shipping those big elements of the Fusion series to Israel would cost a lot of money. With flat packs for each speaker, shipping could easily reach hundreds of dollars, and then there's 30% on top of that.

I think I've found a way to continue using the trial version of Dirac and, as before, I really like the improvement.

 

[MrBoat]

OK, I think I'll stick to my JBLs for a little longer. Shipping those big elements of the Fusion series to Israel would cost a lot of money. With flat packs for each speaker, shipping could easily reach hundreds of dollars, and then there's 30% on top of that.

I think I've found a way to continue using the trial version of Dirac and, as before, I really like the improvement.

You could likely employ a cabinet maker to make your flat pack in the future perhaps, cheaper than you can ship? I have a cabinet shop close by here and the man said he could make anything I want for a reasonable price that would actually be less than the cost of the flat packs.

I like to honor the people who develop the kits as much as possible but, if shipping was not practical, I would use the cabinet maker instead and boost the local economy at that.

 

[yonyz]

You could likely employ a cabinet maker to make your flat pack in the future perhaps, cheaper than you can ship? I have a cabinet shop close by here and the man said he could make anything I want for a reasonable price that would actually be less than the cost of the flat packs.

I like to honor the people who develop the kits as much as possible but, if shipping was not practical, I would use the cabinet maker instead and boost the local economy at that.

Well, my sub is DIY and a carpenter build the cabinet. It cost me $170. It's a big sub, 60x56x54 cm or so, and there's a double front baffle (so two 12" holes to cut) plus a hole for a plate amp and some bracing. If I buy a DIY kit, I'll definitely want the front baffle, as it might be cheaper to ship it than to make it. All the other parts, which are simply flat panels, can indeed be bought relatively cheaply.

With that being said, I've reinstalled the Dirac Live trial, as I've written earlier, and it's really great at taming those piercing high frequency peaks in my room. It's been a few weeks since I last watched a proper film at home, and I watched some TV shows with audio that was really mediocre. Today I've finally watched a film, Arrival, and damn was the sound good. Very theater like. A good audio source + Dirac - no complaints at all. Max SPLs aside, I'd probably need to put a lot of money into DIY to step up to the next level in terms of sound quality.

 

[MrBoat]

But still you have some ideas for the future if need be.

I do not know what Dirac is unless I look it up. I have an equalizer through my computer. I can adjust any of the frequencies from there. Mostly subtle adjustments to preference. Some recordings were notoriously high. Same with some that had too much bass or mid range in spite of the equipment it is played through. Sometimes it is distortions with poor quality recordings that come out of the different frequencies.

I am sure there are more modern treatments, but I like having direct control. It is an old habit.

The man who gave me this AVR, brought over his microphone to setup the auto EQ function. After he listened to how I was working the sound, he was hesitant to disturb it. He could not find a need for correction. Of course he credited the speakers and I got no credit for my efforts.