Audyssey Questions

[lovinthehd]

This is quite possible, as Rojas suggested as well. Or maybe not so much memory but far less critical observation at work - once I had it set up with my old system and was satisfied I've rarely had to tweak it since.*



That looks like a great tweak, I guess I'd definitely have to invest in one of those UMIK-1's to use it though. Which I don't currently have.

I was 100% set and ready to go buy the newest 4k equivalent Pioneer Elite currently on sale in my local store, and pulled back from that plan after reading comments on here and other places. Even the guy in the store (Best Buy, Magnolia section) echoed that sentiment - the Elites are still good AVR's but these days you can get a bit more bang and reliability for the same buck (or thousand, lol). So far from what I've seen the Marantz is a beast - quite powerful, versatile and robust, full of many great features I like and integrated very easily into my system. The only thing I'm having trouble with is Audyssey trying to rob me of the sound I know my speakers and sub are capable of, even within the confines of my crappy living room.

*Memory or critical listening aside, I'm pretty sure that had my old Pioneer started producing muddy bass that wasn't there before my ears would have perked right up. I did enough tweaking back in the day setting my old system up to know when something would have been amiss.

Sometimes your preference is simply your preference I had a Pioneer with Advanced MCACC, I liked it until the avr itself crapped out not too long after warranty expired (it went in stages, first HDMI issues on some ports then a complete crapout later on). Before it crapped out I had both an Onkyo with Audyssey XT and that Pioneer at the same time and I moved the Pioneer to my secondary system after comparing what Audyssey did, that was my preference. After I got a Denon with XT32 the XT moved on to the secondary system...

As to Pioneer being particularly bad, I don't think they're much different than other avr brands (or consumer electronics these days in general). YMMV.

Another USB mic that you can use is the Dayton UMM-6

 

[Halon451]

USD75 If you buy directly from minidsp https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1 or $10 more typically from elsewhere.

Below is my multichannel plot, green is Audyssey off.

View attachment 20103

Hmm... I can plainly see where and how it is correcting some of your peaks and valleys. I'm really starting to think that my problem with Audyssey isn't necessarily related to the EQ settings, but maybe a phasing issue with the sub and possible axial issues with that center channel. Like I said, regular 2.1 music sounds really good, but HT audio is a hit or miss situation, most of the time missing.

Not sure how I could better tweak the distance setting of the sub without a proper mic and REW program beyond what Audyssey has, so I think I'll get one and try it out. To me anyway, after reading all these responses and thinking on things it makes the most sense. If the sub is out of phase due to a wonky distance setting of course it'll muddy up at the MLP. If these were all brand new speakers and sub that I had no prior reference on, then I might point my finger at them, but I know what they can do, and I know what they can sound like.

To note: the Pioneer had standing wave control, which may or may not be one of those "black box" features included in Audyssey's SubEQ, or standings waves may be tempered by other means in Audyssey, I don't really know. IIR, MCACC not only had standing wave control, but phase adjustments built in that would actually display on the screen during the calibration process. I liked to watch it systematically go down that list and run all the various tests and show they were done and corrected. Audyssey may have its strengths and do more technically than MCACC, but bigger and badder is not always better I suppose..

 

[Halon451]

Sometimes your preference is simply your preference

Ultimately all of this is entirely subjective, lol. Any one of you folks could walk into my house right now and hear a completely different system than what I'm hearing. For better or for worse. Trust me, the distinction between preference and reference is not lost on me.

 

[Halon451]

So lets take a sub crossed at 80 Hz. That is a wave length of 13.75 ft, pretty close to 14 ft.

So the second order high pass in the receiver advances it about 3.5 ft. Now the fourth order low pass delays it 7 feet. So we have a crossover time error of 10.5 feet right off the bat. Now add group time delay in the sub if it is ported and you can see how Audyssey could be dead on at Yep's 14 feet.

@TLS Guy this has had me thinking and relative to my previous comment as well, I wanted to ask you as you seem to know far more about this stuff than I. Audyssey set my sub distance at about 9.5 feet which is just about the exact physical distance between the sub's woofer and the MLP. So by this logic, considering a wavelength of 13.8 feet for a sub crossed at 80Hz (which mine is currently), should it stand to reason that perhaps that distance setting is way too short? That maybe I need to actually increase it to around 14 feet or in whatever increments it will allow? I'm not entirely clear on the low pass and high pass delays and how that contributes to the total distance setting, but perhaps you can educate me?

 

[vsound5150]

I read that it's "soooo great and way above its competition" but then I read threads like mine and think "man my old one position MCACC did a much better job than this POS.

It's possible Audyssey is doing an excellent job and giving "true" room acoustic results even though MCACC made it sound good.

 

[PENG]

To note: the Pioneer had standing wave control, which may or may not be one of those "black box" features included in Audyssey's SubEQ, or standings waves may be tempered by other means in Audyssey, I don't really know. IIR, MCACC not only had standing wave control, but phase adjustments built in that would actually display on the screen during the calibration process. I liked to watch it systematically go down that list and run all the various tests and show they were done and corrected. Audyssey may have its strengths and do more technically than MCACC, but bigger and badder is not always better I suppose..

I haven't used MCACC so I don't know how they compare. Audyssey does work in the time domain as well, you just need to set your sub's phase know to 0 or 180 and let Audyssey figure out the best delay for you listening position.

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347483-How-does-MultEQ-apply-room-correction-
https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212342903-Time-Domain-correction-explained

Audyssey XT32 may be better than MCACC overall but it is also possible that MCACC deals with room modes related issues better.

 

[Halon451]

It's possible Audyssey is doing an excellent job and giving "true" room acoustic results even though MCACC made it sound good.

Given a choice between a good looking graph and something actually sounding good I'll opt for the latter every time.

 

[Halon451]

Well from this thread I now have a few new things to try out so looking forward to getting home and annoying the girlfriend with my continued tweaking.

Actual conversation last night:

Her: "What are you DOING?"
Me: "Ehhh the sound still isn't quite right."
Her: "It sounds fine to me."
Me: "Well it's off trust me."
Her: "how's it off?"
Me: (explains in a nutshell what I stated in my OP)
Her: (eye roll) "Well I wish you would come to bed. It's nearly midnight and I can't sleep with all this racket going on."
Me: "Fair enough!"

*Posts this thread this morning*

 

[lovinthehd]

Yeah, I wouldn't run Audyssey until she was out of the house for a while, that just doesn't sound like a prudent thing to do while she's around (or anyone else for that matter....heck I don't even really want to be in the room particularly)

 

[Halon451]

Alright so here's the latest update in the Audyssey saga..

This afternoon I did the following:

1. Reset all AVR channel settings back to their default factory values before I even hooked the mic up. Turned off all Dynamic EQ, etc. Anything that could potentially color the sound.
2. Slid the mains out a bit further trying to get them at least 1 foot off the wall and also toed them in slightly more than what they were.
3. Used a laser pointer to determine the exact axis of that center channel tweeter. Followed that out to the LP, placed the mic in that exact spot which turned out to be pretty damn close to ear level. Kept the initial mic position about 1.5 foot from the rear of the couch back.
4. Dialed the sub's gain knob down to 1/4, ensured AVR sub LP filter was set to 120Hz.
5. Removed all grills from my speakers, ensured all x-over settings were at 80Hz
6. Ran Audyssey
7. Mic positions were kept very tightly clustered, not moving more than a few inches to either side, front and back. Performed the last two of 8 measurements back at the initial LP.
8. Turned Dynamic EQ back on, replaced grills.
9. Adjusted surround levels about -3dB
10. Boosted sub level in the AVR (versus gain knob) by about +4dB

Then I put in Mad Max Fury Road. I chose this because a) I know the audio content on this disc is superbly mixed b) It has a LOT of LFE content along with plenty of sound effects in all frequencies up to the top, c) it is a very demanding audio track - I figure if I can get this to sound good other movies will definitely sound good as well, and d) it's just an awesome flick.

(Drum roll....)

Wow. Immediate improvement was observed! The punch is back in the soundtrack, vocal harshness was definitely tamed and sounded much more natural. Both front and rear sound stages blended well with one another provinding a very spatial listening field. The rumble returned to my seat bottom (that good vibration at close to 20hz ), and no noticeable distortion in any of the speakers. Loud. Clear. Defined. So much better.

Now, there's still some room for improvement on that sub.. parts of the soundtrack did remain a bit boomy and overwhelming at times but that may just be a simple level issue. I'll nudge that back down towards the direction Audyssey put it, see if I can retain the punch but lose the boom.

Overall I'm starting to not feel quite as frustrated with Audyssey. Seems to definitely lack some low end corrections that my previous MCACC applied but the whole system took a giant leap forward today in terms of overall sound quality. Well Ill see how it does with many other sources before making the final call but I'm definitely feeling hopeful at this point.

 

[Halon451]

Oh also I did slide to the other seats on the couch to see if there was noticeable drop off in sound quality outside that tightly calibrated bubble. Turns out it did fairly well at encompassing a decent lateral listening area so sitting anywhere on the couch still sounds pretty good.

 

[lovinthehd]

Ever tried putting the sub behind the couch....give you an excuse to pull it away from the wall a bit....

 

[Halon451]

Just tried to upload a pic from my phone of my living room and it says a 1MB limit.

Well I'll just say that that type of arrangement is just not possible for several reasons.

 

[Halon451]

 

[lovinthehd]

Which way is which with dimensions? Was thinking you were looking down the length rather than width.....I can see the challenges, tho...

 

[yepimonfire]

We have a good discussion here. Yes, I gladly admit to being the auto Eq grouch and with good reason.

I agree Eq will not make a bad speaker good. We have visited this many times. Yep, notes a 14 ft distance to his sub. This is something Audyssey probably got right. I find it does get distance right.

A point all need to take on board, is that steady state frequency response tells you nothing about time. The frequencies could have hours, or even days delay an you would not know it.

So lets take a sub crossed at 80 Hz. That is a wave length of 13.75 ft, pretty close to 14 ft.

So the second order high pass in the receiver advances it about 3.5 ft. Now the fourth order low pass delays it 7 feet. So we have a crossover time error of 10.5 feet right off the bat. Now add group time delay in the sub if it is ported and you can see how Audyssey could be dead on at Yep's 14 feet.

The other issue is that speakers cause room problems to come to attention. This is because most speakers have poor transient response. In addition the bass Q is frequently too high. They are also awash in time/phase errors, which are two ways of saying the same thing. I build low Q speakers and keep time transgressions to the absolute minimum compatible with a good smooth frequency response. This obviates my need for room correction. I have one rule, if normal speech sounds good in the room, then a loudspeaker should sound good reproducing speech in the room and anything else. Speakers carry the lions share of the blame for making room modes an issue. This is mainly related to not stopping and stating when they should and having multiple drivers with huge time smear. This is the norm that most have to deal with.

Now to Halon's rock issue and subs.

Unfortunately musicians and others want to come here to master their work. One is a well known guitarist, song writer/composer.

People in the studios no longer know their craft. I have been working with a guy in LA who apparently has Grammy's that has had enormous difficulty providing me with a mix down I will even master.

Now I have one I can work with, but there is far too much 1 to 2 KHz output and actually not enough bass. Well I visit modern studios and I note mixing being done at high level with diminutive mix top monitors and a huge sub. The sub is turned up far too high and that is what they mix to.

So the customer ends up turning up his sub too high.

This musician has brought me a reel to reel master from his work in the 80s that he wants me to master to CD. The monitors used were the old renowned studio Urei speakers.

This was the sort of gear prevailing back then.

So I loaded the 10.5 inch reel on my Revox A700 and guess what. The sound is perfect with plenty of bass. When the customers get it, they will be turning down their subs, guaranteed.
I'm not going to Eq that tape at all!

There in lies a lot of the problem.

One last thing, if you are using a center with horizontal MTM, you are behind the eight ball, as dispersion is excellent in the vertical plane but lousy in the horizontal plane, which is the reverse of what you want, and exacerbates room problems.

I'm curious about the high q and phase distortions affecting room response. Back in my other thread, you claimed my room was likely less to blame and more my speakers. I have measured the phase as well as the response in that room and now in a much larger room with more ideal dimensions. In the small square room, the phase at 58 and 40hz, which are the two fundamental room modes, are completely flipped, causing a 15dB spike at 50hz. In the larger room, the phase is relatively flat until sub 23hz, and the response is +-5dB. I get the same distortions with every sub and every speaker I've used in that room.

Sent from my SM-G360T1 using Tapatalk

 

[yepimonfire]

TLS, seeing as how Audyssey set my sub distance at just about 9.5 feet which is pretty much the actual physical distance to the MLP, could this potentially be contributing to my low end muddiness? I'm pretty much up against the boundaries of my knowledge when it gets to understanding this particular topic. I've read that Audyssey gets many things wrong, but sub distance is something that it calculates quite well, even those distances that are greatly out of sync with the actual measured distance, due of course to these factors (delay, wavelength, etc.). The general consensus I've read is that it's more than okay (in fact encouraged) to fiddle around with settings after you've run Audyssey but that sub distance should be left alone, no matter what it reads.

I would just measure. There is no way of knowing what is going on exactly even with a well trained ear. If you've got a laptop with a mic that's good enough for bass. I've seen no difference in the low frequency measurements of a calibrated mic and laptop mic on several laptops, the biggest problem is they often take a nose dive past 10khz. Muddy bass is usually caused by an accentuated band in the low end, generally >50hz, or an out of control room resonance or driver resonance. Audyssey should in theory correct the room problem, and if it sounded fine before it's likely not the sub.

An incorrect distance setting would cause the low end to be out of phase with the mains. If you cross over at 80hz for example your speakers are likely still receiving signals down to 40hz, even if it's attentuated, and the sub likely gets signals as high as 120hz, and would therefore be causing destructive interference, which would sound like a hole in the bass and upper bass sections, leaving only the bottom end of the sub bass audible.

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[yepimonfire]

My REW/UMIK-1 before and after plots (I posted them a few times on this forum) clearly show Audyssey XT32/subEQ and even XT are doing a good job. I ran all 8 positions as recommended by Audyssey but I know in the end the sweet spot is within inches from the main sitting position. If I sit anywhere else then all bets are off.

I'll say this again, if you don't take the time to read the fine prints you may not get good results and I firmly believe that's why so many people complained about it all over forums.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/audio-processing/68407-audyssey-multeq-faq-setup-guide.html

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/sections/202387323-Audyssey-101

If you don't have time to read everything, at least make sure you did do the following.

- Disable, bypass all adjustments provided at the back panel of your sub. If there is no means to do so, then set them to where they will do the minimum or nothing. For example, if there is no provision to disable the crossover, set it to maximum.

- Position the Mic well clear of any wall, and point the Mic directly up, i.e. vertically not horizontally.

- For high back furniture, it is okay to have the Mic a few inches higher than your ear level so it clears the highest point at the back.

- Make sure there are nothing big, e.g. Ottoman, coffee table etc. in between the speakers and the Mic.

When it is all done, feel free to increase the subwoofer level by 3 dB or a little more to your liking, and enable DEQ, disable LFC and Dyn Vol. If your room is relatively small, select Audyssey flat, also try L/R bypass if that sounds better to you.

I did all of this to an obsessive degree and still had poor results. My receiver uses an early edition of audyssey so perhaps that's the problem, but I've seen multiple people complain about the same issues I've had, like this post.

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[PENG]

I did all of this to an obsessive degree and still had poor results. My receiver uses an early edition of audyssey so perhaps that's the problem, but I've seen multiple people complain about the same issues I've had, like this post.

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I have had limited success even with the XT version, that's their previous flagship before XT32. With XT I could do equal or slightly better by manually tuning, sub crawling, and checking with REW. By manual tuning I mean using the adjustment knobs and switches at the back of the sub and whatever bass management the AVR provides so it is limited by the specific hardware on hand.

So yes, I am confident that many who got disappointed with the lower/earlier versions will do fine with XT32 Sub EQ HT. There are still going to be exceptions where no Room EQ system can do anything good for them. If you search hard you will find people reporting their bad experience with XT32, just much fewer.

 

[Halon451]

I did all of what PENG suggested with the exception of moving the coffee table. I figured it might yield a result that is rendered inaccurate once I put the table back so I just left it hoping Audyssey would correct for it it there are some reflection issues taking place there. It seems that my latest go at it did the job for everything from 1kHz up, and most of the bass and mid bass region is pretty well dialed in. If I can just figure out a way to correct that tiny bit of slop and boominess that seems to still be present in the 20-30hz range (or so I'm guessing just judging by my ears) I'll be gravy. So far I've only really noticed it being an issue with the Fury Road soundtrack during scenes where they have a lot of low end rumble - but I haven't had time yet to experience other sources and soundtracks to see if it's maybe just an issue with that particular one.

Maybe I'll install REW and just run it using the onboard mic for now like you suggested and see what it looks like. It may at least indicate a starting point. Thy sub, being as large as it is in a room that size and awkward is challenging to place. I'm very limited. I previously found that putting it just outside the L main significantly toed in (see pic above) produced the best results and didn't completely ruin the aesthetics of the room. However could be that MCACC was able to handle it in that position much better than Audyssey and keep it in check.