MarkTheShark

MarkTheShark

Audioholic Intern
Hello, I'm getting a pair of 4 Ohm speakers shortly. I have talked with Rogue Audio regarding connection to my Sphinx amp, and they said no problem. BUT, I plan on partially breaking in the speakers at my office, where I can really drive them. At my office I have a circa 1968 Mcintosh MA 5100 integrated amp. This amp was driving my Martin Logans (6ohms) and some B&Ws just fine. I know on tube amps there are taps for different resistances, the MA5100 says it can handle 4, 8 and 16ohm speakers, but I don't see any settings. Should I be concerned with hooking up my NEW speakers on the 50 year old 5100?
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
No need for concern. Output transformers in the McIntosh would prevent any dc from hitting the speakers. However, I see no real need to take the new speakers to your office unless you need the exercise. You also don't need to worry about speaker break-in.

Read up on dipole speaker room interaction while you're waiting for them to arrive. Some good stuff on the Linkwitz site on the topic. They're different beasts than direct radiators. I haven't heard the ones you're getting, but I've heard similar designs, and liked them so much I almost built a pair. I still may. Anywho, I think you're in for a real treat with your new speakers. Be sure to post your impressions when they arrive.
 
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MarkTheShark

MarkTheShark

Audioholic Intern
No need for concern. Output transformers in the McIntosh would prevent any dc from hitting the speakers. However, I see no real need to take the new speakers to your office unless you need the exercise. You also don't need to worry about speaker break-in.

Read up on dipole speaker room interaction while you're waiting for them to arrive. Some good stuff on the Linkwitz site on the topic. They're different beasts than direct radiators. I haven't heard the ones you're getting, but I've heard similar designs, and liked them so much I almost built a pair. I still may. Anywho, I think you're in for a real treat with your new speakers. Be sure to post your impressions when they arrive.
Thanks, Ski, The speakers are Spatial M3s Open Baffle type. I think the speakers will sound great out of the box, but the manufacturer states that there is a break in period and they actually won't take returns for at least 60 days because of this. Not that I plan on returning them. I figured I could put more mileage on the speakers the first few weeks while in my office, taking the stress of of my wife o_O
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
Well, that speaker uses some burly pro style drivers that are probably stiff right out of the box. But even that shouldn't really matter. The speakers are assembled and tested at the factory, presumably. Any significant break-in should occur within just a few moments of them playing music, which would have occurred then and there. Also, OB types do exhibit greater excursion, so I would think that pretty much any music would exercise the drivers enough to "break them in". I say don't worry about it, just throw on your favorite tunes and start rockin out.

Interesting that they won't accept returns until after 60 days. Typically, shady peddlers will use the break in myth as an excuse to get folks to simply tolerate bad gear until they become acclimated, at which point they are either past the return date or just don't sent it back.

For you, assuming the speakers do the basics well and sound good to you right away, your biggest task will be figuring out the dipole/room interaction thing for maximum effect. They need a lot of breathing room in order to work properly. This is another reason why you may want to focus on the room they'll live in long term, rather than trucking them around to different places.

If you have the available real estate to accommodate ideal placement, then it's a matter of if you like their peculiar quirks. For example, they necessarily involve local acoustics to a high degree, which can do wonders for particularly dry recordings, but for recordings more rich in ambient information, the added local ambiance may be too much of a good thing. The sweet spots tend to be highly focused and tiny, but within them some cool things happen. Dipoles are interesting, for sure. You'll soon know first hand.
 
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MarkTheShark

MarkTheShark

Audioholic Intern
Ski 2Xblack, I have to disagree with you on a few items.

"Any significant break-in should occur within just a few moments of them playing music, which would have occurred"

Really? a few moments of break in time is all that is needed for speakers? I am a newbie here but, that does not seem accurate.


"Interesting that they won't accept returns until after 60 days. Typically, shady peddlers will use the break in myth as an excuse to get folks to simply tolerate bad gear until they become acclimated, at which point they are either past the return date or just don't sent it back."

Shady Peddlers? and the implication that they probably dont even test their speakers before shipment. Where did that come from? If in fact the manufacturer states that there may be 50 to 100 hours of break in, then it would only make sense that you should not send them back in the first week.

Also, if the speakers were being broken in over the first month, why would I be overly concerned about placement until they were broken in?

" OB types do exhibit greater excursion, so I would think that pretty much any music would exercise the drivers enough to "break them in". I say don't worry about it, just throw on your favorite tunes and start rockin out."

I'm not worried about break in, my post was regarding my concern with my new 4 ohm speakers running on a 50 year old amp.

With all do respect, I believe you may be getting off track somewhat. Please visit the Spatial Audio site and read the reviews, look at the science behind the equipment and listen to what Clayton Shaw says regarding where the design has come from. I don't think he's selling snake oil. If the speakers don't preform as well as my research has led me to believe, I will indeed return them, but I doubt that will be the case.

 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I'm also of the mind merely install them where you want them and use them; break-in time is overstated (and I too find their return policy interesting....are they well funded or not was my first thought). I think ski was merely referring to some boutique speaker guys that have been known to tell you that you need an extremely long break-in time that may exceed 30 days when you actually don't, and those people then after say 30 days say no more returns....I don't think he's saying Spatial is this kind of company but to keep your money for 60 days instead of on a shorter time frame if you don't like the speakers does have a bit of odor to it....

ps sorry, can't help you with the McIntosh question....try McIntosh customer service if you don't believe ski and myself on break-in or his answer on the amp?
 
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ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Samurai
Really? a few moments of break in time is all that is needed for speakers? I am a newbie here but, that does not seem accurate.
Drivers change ever so slightly from just out of the box to "broken in", but it only really takes a few cycles for tweeters, and a bit longer for woofers, but it's measured in seconds or minutes, not days or weeks. Just listen to music, and don't worry about it.
Shady Peddlers? and the implication that they probably dont even test their speakers before shipment.
You misread my post. I was talking about those other shady peddlers. I'm sure Spatial does quality testing of their product before it goes out the door.
I'm not worried about break in...
Clearly, you are, or you wouldn't have brought it up or continued to perseverate on the non-issue of speaker break in.
my post was regarding my concern with my new 4 ohm speakers running on a 50 year old amp.
Answered. You're welcome.
With all do respect, I believe you may be getting off track somewhat. Please visit the Spatial Audio site and read the reviews, look at the science behind the equipment and listen to what Clayton Shaw says regarding where the design has come from. I don't think he's selling snake oil. If the speakers don't preform as well as my research has led me to believe, I will indeed return them, but I doubt that will be the case.
With all due respect, if you think that I accused Spatial Audio of selling snake oil, then you really need to work on your reading comprehension skills.
 
MarkTheShark

MarkTheShark

Audioholic Intern
I'm also of the mind merely install them where you want them and use them; break-in time is overstated (and I too find their return policy interesting....are they well funded or not was my first thought). I think ski was merely referring to some boutique speaker guys that have been known to tell you that you need an extremely long break-in time that may exceed 30 days when you actually don't, and those people then after say 30 days say no more returns....I don't think he's saying Spatial is this kind of company but to keep your money for 60 days instead of on a shorter time frame if you don't like the speakers does have a bit of odor to it....

ps sorry, can't help you with the McIntosh question....try McIntosh customer service if you don't believe ski and myself on break-in?
Maybe I'm being a little overly defensive with Ski. I did a lot of research, the technology is interesting and I have made the purchase. I understand that for many speakers break in would be minimal, but from the reviews, and there are many, it seems as if these speakers need some time to come around. You guys know the business better than I do.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Maybe I'm being a little overly defensive with Ski. I did a lot of research, the technology is interesting and I have made the purchase. I understand that for many speakers break in would be minimal, but from the reviews, and there are many, it seems as if these speakers need some time to come around. You guys know the business better than I do.
I've had a lot of speakers and subs cross my rooms over the last few years and break in simply is not worthy of worry...just use 'em. You'll probably only imagine the point at which they're broken in IMHO. Sonic memory kinda sucks, too. Lots of marketing in "high-end" audio gear.
 
MarkTheShark

MarkTheShark

Audioholic Intern
Drivers change ever so slightly from just out of the box to "broken in", but it only really takes a few cycles for tweeters, and a bit longer for woofers, but it's measured in seconds or minutes, not days or weeks. Just listen to music, and don't worry about it.

You misread my post. I was talking about those other shady peddlers. I'm sure Spatial does quality testing of their product before it goes out the door.

Clearly, you are, or you wouldn't have brought it up or continued to perseverate on the non-issue of speaker break in.

Answered. You're welcome.

With all due respect, if you think that I accused Spatial Audio of selling snake oil, then you really need to work on your reading comprehension skills.
Thank you Ski, I may have come off a little defensive, my apologies. Because we we talking about Spatial Audio, I took your negative comments as directed at them. Also, I'm really not "concerned" about break in. Based on Spatials recommendations, I am assuming a break in period, that's it. Your comments regarding the Mcintosh 5100 eased my concerns about just hooking up new speakers to an older piece of equipment. As far as the 60 day return, I dont think that I will be left with out the ability to return the speakers after 60 days. Thanks again for your input, it has me thinking outside the box, which is good.
M
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Breaking in new speakers is debated often, but it isn't worth talking about. Break in of can be measured as small changes of a new woofers physical and electrical parameters, but there is little or no evidence that people hear these differences.

Open baffle (dipole) speakers, such as MarkTheShark's Spatial M3s, are quite different than typical speakers in a box (monopoles, such as his B&W speakers). Open baffles radiate sound in both directions forwards and backwards, whereas monopoles radiate only forwards. Open baffle speakers are highly sensitive to their and the listener's location in the room. Technically, those M3 speakers are open baffle woofers – the tweeters are monopoles. All frequencies below the crossover point, from 800 Hz down, will be dipole.

It's easy for me to imagine a new owner, who isn't acquainted with the open baffle sound presentation and location problems, could become impatient and return them without enough room placement effort. It comes down to trial & error in furniture arrangement. As a guess, I think that might be the reason for Spatial's policy of no returns until after 60 days.

Those M3s aren't small or light weight. I'd keep them at home and spend a lot of time listening to them as you move things around. I hope the owners manual has good guidance for that.
 
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slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Hello, I'm getting a pair of 4 Ohm speakers shortly. I have talked with Rogue Audio regarding connection to my Sphinx amp, and they said no problem. BUT, I plan on partially breaking in the speakers at my office, where I can really drive them. At my office I have a circa 1968 Mcintosh MA 5100 integrated amp. This amp was driving my Martin Logans (6ohms) and some B&Ws just fine. I know on tube amps there are taps for different resistances, the MA5100 says it can handle 4, 8 and 16ohm speakers, but I don't see any settings. Should I be concerned with hooking up my NEW speakers on the 50 year old 5100?
Read this AH article concerning speaker break in! I also used to believe in break in, but this article provides pretty compelling evidence and data to suggest that break in is a myth!

Even seeing the article, it's difficult for me to overcome my preconceived notions about break in, but this article was done very well and it is difficult to argue against it, right?

It's been a while since I read it, the very last line is a key point:
Normal production unit-to-unit driver spec variances can affect final amplitude response of a system to a larger degree than that expected from normal pre- post-burn in driver suspension compliance changes.

http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/speaker-break-in-fact-or-fiction
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
There is definitely physical change in "breaking in" but how audible is it? My educated guess is that it is likely not audible.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
There is definitely physical change in "breaking in" but how audible is it? My educated guess is that it is likely not audible.
There it is, in a nutshell!

I am a chemist by profession. I know for 100% certain that polymers outgas solvents and become more compliant upon break-in. Think "new car smell". It is all related to the manufacturing process and the way the monomers link up to form the polymeric chains, and smaller solvent molecules (serving as the matrix for the monomers) get trapped in the chain structure, then mechanical perturbation of the polymer chain structure allows the solvents to outgas when the physical obstruction is removed.

That is all pretty well understood and characterized! Many people also don't realize, many polymers will also re-absorb solvent molecules! For example, placing viton O-rings in a solvent will cause them to swell up like a sponge to ~3x the normal size!

With that background, I think it is easy to see why I believe in speaker break in. It is quite well understood that the polymer does have a break in period.

But, the AH article is pretty dang good evidence that it is NOT AUDIBLE!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I meant to say the changes are too minute to result in being detectable by our sense. That minute change would happen quickly as soon as it is used, and after that the changes will progress much more slowly and in neglible way. I haven't read that AH article yet but I will.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
There is definitely physical change in "breaking in" but how audible is it? My educated guess is that it is likely not audible.
I have seen parameters change over time, but didn't bother to do an A:B comparison between a virgin driver and one that was rode hard and put away wet. I have heard some manufacturers state that 150-200 hours was needed and many that never mentioned it- in the past (when I started working in the audio business), nobody EVER mentioned speaker break-in and if someone had said anything about cable break-in, they would have been laughed out of the store. Now, companies like AudioQuest hang their hat on that claim. I think some manufacturers recommend long break-in times specifically because the interval between the first time and when the little red button pops up like a Butterball turkey is too long to remember all of the sonic details, or as a way to make excuses for inferior products.

Never underestimate the ability of our ears/mind to become accustomed to something that's very different from what we had.
 
everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
You should email John at zaphaudio.com . He can give some insight on speaker break in. He has tested hundreds of drivers.
 

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