4K Upgrade has turned costly

[Halon451]

Okay, so first of all it has been a LOOOONG time since I've posted to this forum; I was quite active several years ago and I'm glad that it's still going strong. It was a great resource back when I was first building my home theater setup which has kept me quite happy for the past 8 to 9 years. I promise this is a receiver related post, but I've got to give the backstory first...

Early in January I decided to pull the trigger on a new 4K TV to replace my trusty old Panasonic Viera 50" Plasma, which has NEVER failed to deliver an amazing picture. But let's face it, she was getting old and maybe the jacked up demo settings on that beautiful 65" Samsung KS8000 UHD 4K TV in the store was too much to ignore.. and lured both me and my wallet right to the counter. Anyway I digress. I finally went in, plopped down close to 2 large and brought that bad boy home to install it. That Panny is still a great TV so I relegated her to the bedroom as I'm just too sentimental to part with her. She'll live there until she dies.

ANYway... and maybe some of you can relate who've taken the 4k plunge.. it only BEGINS at the TV. I quickly realized they hey - I need to feed this thing actual 4K content to get my money's worth, so I ended up replacing my old PS3 with a new Xbox One S as it is capable of playing 4K blu-rays. Great - I can live with the cable box only spitting out its typical 1080i content and let the TV upscale it. I'm not concerned with pristine picture when just watching the news anyway.

Now we get to the reason I'm posting in the Receivers section: I had been running all my old stuff on an older Pioneer Elite VSX-23TXH AVR - which only provided HDMI switching for 1080p sources of course. In order to get the 4K content from the Xbox to the TV I had to reconfigure everything to connect directly to the Samsung's "One Connect" box and feed the audio back to the receiver via optical cable. Popped in "The Revenant" 4K blu-ray and prepared to enjoy the movie. It didn't take me long to realize that the sound had completely lost its ooomph.. Whereas before, the AVR was quite adept at handling the DD True HD and DTS Master, etc., I failed to realize that this particular configuration would not allow those more advanced formats to be processed by the AVR. Furthermore it was complicated by the fact that the TV's audio optical connection had defaulted to PCM and was using its own native "DTS Neo 2.5" to spit out a matrixed multi-channel signal to the receiver from 2-channel origins. I was seeing the AVR display indicate surround sound as it automatically switched to the "THX Cinema" indicator cause that's the setting I like best. So I was fooled for a bit, but my ears don't lie. I knew it wasn't right. So then I figured it out and managed to get regular old standard Dolby Digital and DTS to work again by switching everything in the signal chain to bitstream, however no ability to process the HD surround formats. It was an improvement, but not quite the same as what it was before.

So now I am stuck in a dilemma. I can either run all my HDMI back through the receiver to regain the full audio quality I'm now lacking, thereby defeating the whole purpose of upgrading my gear to 4k (as the AVR will only pass 1080p), or I leave it connected as is, enjoy the 4K picture quality but sacrifice the audio to some extent.

Which leaves me to only one real true option that I can determine thus far: upgrade the receiver to one capable of 4k pass through. I don't believe my current AVR supports ARC, even though the new TV does - and I have read that this wouldn't solve my issue anyway as it would only deliver 2-channel audio and none of the true surround formats. I've grown rather fond of the Pioneer Elite line and am accustomed to its operation, setup, MCACC, etc. I'm a little disappointed to see that the 4k pass-through equivalent to my older 1080p model has everything mine has except standing wave control (odd omission on Pioneer's part it seems). The one I have my eye on it the Pioneer Elite SCL X501.

My entire speaker line is SVS, including the sub (an older PB-12) - amazing speakers and when the AVR is processing those advanced formats just an incredible soundstage. I need to get that back.

So after this small novel (sorry) my question is this: am I correct in assuming that the only real way to get myself back up to par in terms of my sound without sacrificing the whole "4K" upgrade functionality is to upgrade the AVR as well? Have I backed myself into that corner? Is there a viable workaround that would allow me to keep my current AVR but still get the more advanced surround formats?

If I do need to upgrade the AVR, any tips, suggestions, recommendations? Looking to spend around $1k max. Which is right about where that SCL X501 sits. Is Dolby Atmos and DTS: X worth it?

 

[vsound5150]

Okay, so first of all it has been a LOOOONG time since I've posted to this forum; I was quite active several years ago and I'm glad that it's still going strong. It was a great resource back when I was first building my home theater setup which has kept me quite happy for the past 8 to 9 years. I promise this is a receiver related post, but I've got to give the backstory first...

Early in January I decided to pull the trigger on a new 4K TV to replace my trusty old Panasonic Viera 50" Plasma, which has NEVER failed to deliver an amazing picture. But let's face it, she was getting old and maybe the jacked up demo settings on that beautiful 65" Samsung KS8000 UHD 4K TV in the store was too much to ignore.. and lured both me and my wallet right to the counter. Anyway I digress. I finally went in, plopped down close to 2 large and brought that bad boy home to install it. That Panny is still a great TV so I relegated her to the bedroom as I'm just too sentimental to part with her. She'll live there until she dies.

ANYway... and maybe some of you can relate who've taken the 4k plunge.. it only BEGINS at the TV. I quickly realized they hey - I need to feed this thing actual 4K content to get my money's worth, so I ended up replacing my old PS3 with a new Xbox One S as it is capable of playing 4K blu-rays. Great - I can live with the cable box only spitting out its typical 1080i content and let the TV upscale it. I'm not concerned with pristine picture when just watching the news anyway.

Now we get to the reason I'm posting in the Receivers section: I had been running all my old stuff on an older Pioneer Elite VSX-23TXH AVR - which only provided HDMI switching for 1080p sources of course. In order to get the 4K content from the Xbox to the TV I had to reconfigure everything to connect directly to the Samsung's "One Connect" box and feed the audio back to the receiver via optical cable. Popped in "The Revenant" 4K blu-ray and prepared to enjoy the movie. It didn't take me long to realize that the sound had completely lost its ooomph.. Whereas before, the AVR was quite adept at handling the DD True HD and DTS Master, etc., I failed to realize that this particular configuration would not allow those more advanced formats to be processed by the AVR. Furthermore it was complicated by the fact that the TV's audio optical connection had defaulted to PCM and was using its own native "DTS Neo 2.5" to spit out a matrixed multi-channel signal to the receiver from 2-channel origins. I was seeing the AVR display indicate surround sound as it automatically switched to the "THX Cinema" indicator cause that's the setting I like best. So I was fooled for a bit, but my ears don't lie. I knew it wasn't right. So then I figured it out and managed to get regular old standard Dolby Digital and DTS to work again by switching everything in the signal chain to bitstream, however no ability to process the HD surround formats. It was an improvement, but not quite the same as what it was before.

So now I am stuck in a dilemma. I can either run all my HDMI back through the receiver to regain the full audio quality I'm now lacking, thereby defeating the whole purpose of upgrading my gear to 4k (as the AVR will only pass 1080p), or I leave it connected as is, enjoy the 4K picture quality but sacrifice the audio to some extent.

Which leaves me to only one real true option that I can determine thus far: upgrade the receiver to one capable of 4k pass through. I don't believe my current AVR supports ARC, even though the new TV does - and I have read that this wouldn't solve my issue anyway as it would only deliver 2-channel audio and none of the true surround formats. I've grown rather fond of the Pioneer Elite line and am accustomed to its operation, setup, MCACC, etc. I'm a little disappointed to see that the 4k pass-through equivalent to my older 1080p model has everything mine has except standing wave control (odd omission on Pioneer's part it seems). The one I have my eye on it the Pioneer Elite SCL X501.

My entire speaker line is SVS, including the sub (an older PB-12) - amazing speakers and when the AVR is processing those advanced formats just an incredible soundstage. I need to get that back.

So after this small novel (sorry) my question is this: am I correct in assuming that the only real way to get myself back up to par in terms of my sound without sacrificing the whole "4K" upgrade functionality is to upgrade the AVR as well? Have I backed myself into that corner? Is there a viable workaround that would allow me to keep my current AVR but still get the more advanced surround formats?

If I do need to upgrade the AVR, any tips, suggestions, recommendations? Looking to spend around $1k max. Which is right about where that SCL X501 sits. Is Dolby Atmos and DTS: X worth it?

I think it's time for the AVR to join the Panny in the bedroom and let them die together. The optical audio and hdmi/ARC won't feed hi def audio.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

is this is your tv here ? :
https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-UN65KS8000-65-Inch-Ultra-Smart/dp/B01C5TFNSM?th=1
If you paid close to 2k I think you got robbed.

And yeah - you need new AVR. Not huge fan of Pio avrs due to lacking of mcacc system, I'd rather spend a grand on this: https://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X3300W-Channel-Receiver-Bluetooth/dp/B01HL8KYAY/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1486145566&sr=8-3&keywords=denon+x3000
Wait a bit thou - it's often on sale for $800

 

[Hi Ho]

As it stands you have two options. You can upgrade the AVR or you can use a UHD Blu-Ray player with two HDMI outputs and run one to the display and one to the AVR for sound. Since you already have the new Xbox upgrading the AVR would clearly be the best option.

I would avoid Pioneer at this point. They are NOT the Pioneer of old. Pioneer sold their AVR division to Onkyo. At this point they really are not competitive and I would not recommend them as there are better options out there in just about every respect.

I am a Yamaha fan because they make rock solid products that last a long time and I have owned Yamaha for years. The one area where Yamaha is lacking is room correction. YPAO is good but not the best. It is certainly better than MCACC. Room correction is the number one reason I now have a Denon AVR-X3300 and I can say that Audyssey MultEQ XT32 alone is worth moving to a Denon or Marantz product. Running Audyssey on my setup made the biggest improvement in sound I have experienced from any room correction system and I have tried many of them (Yamaha, Sony, Pioneer, Anthem). You can get a refurbished X-3300 from Accessories4Less for $650. If you think you want to do more than a 5.2.2 setup in the future than it may be worth moving up to the X4300.

 

[RBGOBLUE]

8802A Marantz processor amazing ATI AMPS 9.2.2 everybody that here's my system they can't believe it

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

 

[Halon451]

is this is your tv here ? :
https://www.amazon.com/Samsung-UN65KS8000-65-Inch-Ultra-Smart/dp/B01C5TFNSM?th=1
If you paid close to 2k I think you got robbed.

Yes that's the one. I had my eye on it just before Christmas and almost bought it then. It was down to $1499 at Best Buy, then I waited (foolishly) and right after Christmas the price went up to $1799. So I held off and the first dip it took again (went down to $1699) I jumped on it. The price I paid included taxes and a couple new HDMI cables too along with a more compatible wall mount. So, close to $2k out the door for everything.

 

[Halon451]

Interesting thoughts on the Pioneer line, appreciate the feedback guys. My old VSX-23TXH has been a workhorse and I had upgraded to it actually from an older Yamaha model that wasn't cutting it. I didn't realize that the line has suffered in recent years, so that's disappointing to hear. I also have a relatively small and awkward living room space so anything above 5.1 is moot (unless I include buying a new home in my 4K conversion as well hah). My current Pioneer does 7.1, so I have the two open channels tied to a couple speakers on my back lanai set up as a separate zone, which really works out quite well for my needs. And the 5.1 is more than plenty given the proximity.

I did actually look at a couple Denon's and a Marantz AVR, both of which looked pretty good, but kinda figured I'd stick with what's been serving me so well. It's a shame if the Pioneer Elite line isn't what it used to be.

 

[Halon451]

Room correction is the number one reason I now have a Denon AVR-X3300 and I can say that Audyssey MultEQ XT32 alone is worth moving to a Denon or Marantz product.

I'm liking this Denon.. and sits well within my price point, even as a new item at full retail price. Unfortunately doesn't appear that my local big box store has one available to demo.

 

[Halon451]

Also, and this is admittedly kind of a cheesy factor, but it's worth mentioning. Aesthetics does play a role to some extent in my decision making. One thing I've always loved about my Pioneer was that it just looked sleek and polished. It just looks like a nice unit and is a beautiful component in my entertainment console. I know this has nothing at all to do with functionality, but I thought I would make note of that since it seems that the newer Elite models have done away with the polished look and gone more with the standard brushed metal casing. Perhaps a result of the Onkyo buyout. And aesthetics went out the window anyway as soon as I tucked that bright white freaking Xbox into the console. Seriously, they made every color of that thing except black? What is Microsoft thinking??

 

[Littlefoott]

optical output is 5.1 basic support only
you could try an hdmi splitter for the xbox (tv and avr)
but you would be happier with a new marantz
and changing inputs would be a pain without a 3rd party remote (logitech)

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm liking this Denon.. and sits well within my price point, even as a new item at full retail price. Unfortunately doesn't appear that my local big box store has one available to demo.

Even if they had one to demo, what would that tell you? You trust them to actually run a proper Audyssey setup in a store? I doubt it...

 

[rojo]

@Halon451 welcome back! I've come across a few of your posts in searches from time to time. Nice to see you active again.

Anyway, 65-inch television, huh? How far away do you sit? Unless you sit 8 feet away or closer, it's likely you'll never be able to tell a difference between 1080p and 4K.

 

[Halon451]

8802A Marantz processor amazing ATI AMPS 9.2.2 everybody that here's my system they can't believe it

Dude, that one is WAY beyond my price range... I believe you though!

This is the Marantz AVR I was looking at: Marantz SR5011

 

[Halon451]

Even if they had one to demo, what would that tell you? You trust them to actually run a proper Audyssey setup in a store? I doubt it...

No of course not - but I still like to see a piece of gear in action, play with it a bit, and at least hear what it sounds like to whatever extent is possible given the environment of a big store. It's an investment on my part and it's at least better than nothing.

 

[lovinthehd]

No of course not - but I still like to see a piece of gear in action, play with it a bit, and at least hear what it sounds like to whatever extent is possible given the environment of a big store. It's an investment on my part and it's at least better than nothing.

You can't tell anything about the audio qualities that way IMO. Hands on isn't even the way I use one at home....remotes for the most part

 

[Hi Ho]

Your best bet to find any of these higher end AVR's on display is a specialty A/V store or a Best Buy with a Magnolia store. There are two different types of Magnolia stores. There are Design Centers and Magnolia Home Theater. Both should have Marantz and Denon on display. A Design Center has more high end products and the employees are on commission.

 

[Halon451]

@Halon451 welcome back! I've come across a few of your posts in searches from time to time. Nice to see you active again.

Anyway, 65-inch television, huh? How far away do you sit? Unless you sit 8 feet away or closer, it's likely you'll never be able to tell a difference between 1080p and 4K.

Thanks man! Glad to see some familiar names around here still! Yeah, 65" go big or go home right? Haha.. well I sit about 7-8' away (maybe a tad more), so per your handy chart there, looks like I'm just within the "Ultra HD Worth It" range. I can say this - I do notice a difference when feeding it actual 4K content. Even the upscaled 1080p stuff looks better, but that could be entirely placebo effect.

On the downside - and this isn't the thread to discuss displays obviously, I will truly miss the richness of color and the deep blacks that old Panny plasma can produce. Granted it's still in use in the bedroom but I don't do my serious movie watching there. Not sure where I stand on the Samsung's edge-lit backlighting either, it's just weird.. and the viewing angle sucks compared to the Panny. But seated in the main viewing position she's a beauty in her own right. It's too bad Panasonic left the game and let Samsung take over the market.

 

[Halon451]

Your best bet to find any of these higher end AVR's on display is a specialty A/V store or a Best Buy with a Magnolia store. There are two different types of Magnolia stores. There are Design Centers and Magnolia Home Theater. Both should have Marantz and Denon on display. A Design Center has more high end products and the employees are on commission.

I actually did find that Denon available at another store; granted it's nearly a 20 mile drive, but if I'm spending $1000 it would make me feel a bit better to see it in person. My local store does have a Magnolia Home Theater section and may actually have one on display even if the website is telling me they are out of stock.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks man! Glad to see some familiar names around here still! Yeah, 65" go big or go home right? Haha.. well I sit about 7-8' away (maybe a tad more), so per your handy chart there, looks like I'm just within the "Ultra HD Worth It" range. I can say this - I do notice a difference when feeding it actual 4K content. Even the upscaled 1080p stuff looks better, but that could be entirely placebo effect.

On the downside - and this isn't the thread to discuss displays obviously, I will truly miss the richness of color and the deep blacks that old Panny plasma can produce. Granted it's still in use in the bedroom but I don't do my serious movie watching there. Not sure where I stand on the Samsung's edge-lit backlighting either, it's just weird.. and the viewing angle sucks compared to the Panny. But seated in the main viewing position she's a beauty in her own right. It's too bad Panasonic left the game and let Samsung take over the market.

Too bad Samsung also left the plasma game...love mine.

 

[Halon451]

Yep, my Dad has a 52" Samsung plasma. Beautiful picture. I think I'll always have a fondness for plasma displays, even if they are now considered "old tech" and not near as sexy as these ultra slim LED TV's hah.