neutral sounding amplifier

[chaosrealm93]

hey all,

i may be in the market for an amp in the future. at this point, i am still doing my research and am still deciding whether i want an integrated solution or separates. i kinda like the simplicity of integrated but the versatility of separates is appealing as well.

my end goal is to have an neutral sounding system. slight coloration is almost unavoidable and if it must be so, id rather it lean towards being slightly warm.

i live in ontario, canada so not every brand is available to me, but here are some i have to choose from; moon, NAD, naim, mcintosh, cambridge audio, arcam, bryston (i know i missed a few for sure)


-how would you characterize each brand's sound? (or could you even paint them with a brush that broad?)

-ive often heard components be given human qualities such as warm, bright, cold, analytical etc, but in the end, they are electronics and can be measured. so would a "warm" amp see a visible hump in the midrange when measured?


ps. im curious as to how ATC + Moon would work out. from what ive read so far, ATC is very detailed yet not fatiguing and Moon is neutral with slight warmth. has any of you had the pleasure of hearing this combo or them separately and can comment?

thanks !

 

[ski2xblack]

I think you seek an equalizer or tone controls if you want "warm" sound. None of those amps would provide non-linear response in the mid-range.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

Transistor amplifiers should all be neutral with close to no coloration, tube amplifiers are a different story and it is quite a lot about what tubes you are using.

 

[PENG]

i live in ontario, canada so not every brand is available to me, but here are some i have to choose from; moon, NAD, naim, mcintosh, cambridge audio, arcam, bryston (i know i missed a few for sure)

You may add Anthem, Classe and Rotel, all readily available in Ontario. If you don't mind buying online then you can add the Parasound Halo series as well, their JC monblocks are really nice.

-how would you characterize each brand's sound? (or could you even paint them with a brush that broad?)

All designed, and advertised to be accurate, i.e. neutral by definition. I have heard all of them except Naim and none appear to have any specific kind of sound though the dealers would not agree.

-ive often heard components be given human qualities such as warm, bright, cold, analytical etc, but in the end, they are electronics and can be measured. so would a "warm" amp see a visible hump in the midrange when measured?

I guess in the old days, very old days, amps sound more different than they are today for a variety of reasons. So hearsay became facts and they are hard to shake. Nowadays, any of those claimed difference can mostly be explained by reasons other than lab measurements. If you go by published lab measurements, they should not sound very different, not enough for most people to tell them apart in properly conducted comparison listening tests.

ps. im curious as to how ATC + Moon would work out. from what ive read so far, ATC is very detailed yet not fatiguing and Moon is neutral with slight warmth. has any of you had the pleasure of hearing this combo or them separately and can comment?

Do you mean Simaudio's Moon amplifiers? I wouldn't listen to those bs about slight warm, for the money they are asking they better be neutral/accurate. If I want some warmth, I just apply EQ to my liking, definitely don't want them to meddle with accuracy.

I know it is hard to convince any audiophile, but I learned it the hard way that my separate amps sound no better than my aging Denon receiver after numerous A/B listening tests. I have no regrets though, as I do like the build quality, the look and the feel of the much more expensive separate components. When I know they are the one playing, I can imagine they do sound much better than my receivers.

 

[chaosrealm93]

how important is "doubling down" for an amp?

is parasound's stuff less capable or just accurate reporting on their behalf?

 

[j_garcia]

Doubling down is irrelevant once you hit enough power to deliver how much you need to listen at the levels you want. I found receivers to sometimes have slightly different sounds to them, but that's not the amplification stage. After owning a number of different amps I've come to find they all sound pretty much the same as well.

Parasound less capable? lol. Than what?

There's not really a lot of versatility in separates unless you change gear often or absolutely need the latest features, in which case you are better off with an AVR as a pre and a good amp. AVRs are updated every year while most preamps usually change only every few, though with larger jumps in capability. Unless there is a real motivation, I would not expect most to switch out a pre any more often than an AVR.

 

[DD66000]

how important is "doubling down" for an amp?

is parasound's stuff less capable or just accurate reporting on their behalf?

Doubling down only counts if you're running 4 ohm or less.
Parasound amps are very capable...the A21 will drive most anything....and class A up to 10w. Add to it whichever pre-amp you want...I use a P7/A21 combo.....
Then there is Parasound Integrated 2.1 amp.

 

[lovinthehd]

how important is "doubling down" for an amp?

The doubling down is often merely a manipulation of the specs at higher impedance.

 

[chaosrealm93]

Parasound less capable? lol. Than what?

i dunno, something from moon or classe which rates their stuff as having double the watts when at half the impedance

is it just trickery?

 

[highfigh]

If you don't mind buying online then you can add the Parasound Halo series as well, their JC monblocks are really nice.
I have heard all of them except Naim and none appear to have any specific kind of sound though the dealers would not agree.

I know it is hard to convince any audiophile, but I learned it the hard way that my separate amps sound no better than my aging Denon receiver after numerous A/B listening tests. I have no regrets though, as I do like the build quality, the look and the feel of the much more expensive separate components. When I know they are the one playing, I can imagine they do sound much better than my receivers.

I know the guys at a local high end store (not the stupid price gear, anyway) and they sell Audio Research, Moon, Parasound Halo and Cambridge as their main lines. I asked for his opinion on the Halo amps and he said he thinks they're "neutral to warm". I have a P5 and A23, which sound very neutral to me, lacking nothing in the high or low frequencies, but I definitely think this combo sounds much better than the Denon AVR-2313CI I had been using. I never thought the Denon lacked anything, but this does have a great sound and I do prefer it. I was surprised by the difference, although I didn't do blind AB or objective testing.

I have listened to the Audio Research amps on many occasions and if something is available at a discount, I would say it might be worth a shot but for value, I like the Parasound. No/not much experience with the others, though.

 

[lovinthehd]

@chaosrealm93 you might try this article http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/amplifier-voltage-gain, particularly the end bit.

 

[PENG]

I know the guys at a local high end store (not the stupid price gear, anyway) and they sell Audio Research, Moon, Parasound Halo and Cambridge as their main lines. I asked for his opinion on the Halo amps and he said he thinks they're "neutral to warm". I have a P5 and A23, which sound very neutral to me, lacking nothing in the high or low frequencies, but I definitely think this combo sounds much better than the Denon AVR-2313CI I had been using. I never thought the Denon lacked anything, but this does have a great sound and I do prefer it. I was surprised by the difference, although I didn't do blind AB or objective testing.

I have listened to the Audio Research amps on many occasions and if something is available at a discount, I would say it might be worth a shot but for value, I like the Parasound. No/not much experience with the others, though.

I also thought my Cambridge Audio preamp and Halo A21 combo sounds neutral, but it does not sound different to me. I AB (volume matched) them numerous times with my Denon 3805 in pure direct. If want them to sound different, I have to engage some sort of EQ.

If I remember right we have had this discussion before, it could be that your 2313 was under powered in your situation, or there the 2313's just wasn't designed to sound as accurate as it's higher end 3XXX siblings, or both.

 

[j_garcia]

i dunno, something from moon or classe which rates their stuff as having double the watts when at half the impedance

is it just trickery?

It does tend to indicate a stout amp, in which case you might benefit with a low impedance speaker. Again, if you have enough power for your needs, this isn't an entirely meaningful stat.

 

[KEW]

i dunno, something from moon or classe which rates their stuff as having double the watts when at half the impedance

is it just trickery?

The doubling down is often merely a manipulation of the specs at higher impedance.

In case you are not following what lovinthehd means, here is an example:
The Emotive XPA-2 (original generation) manufacturer's specs claim 250Watts RMS into 8 Ohms and 500 into 4 ohms.
When Gene measured, he stated:

... the XPA-2 exceeded its power specifications by considerable margins. Into 8 ohms it was rated to 250 watts at 1% THD , yet I measured 312 watts at 0.1% THD. Into 4 ohm loads it was rated to 500 watts at 1% THD while again my measurements exceeded this rating producing 512 watts at 0.1% THD.

http://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/emotiva-xpa-2/xpa-2-measurements

So, instead of two times the power it actually achieves 1.64 times the power (512/312=1.64)

So, what we see is Emotiva decided they wanted to claim "double down" status more than claiming the additional 50 Watts per channel into 8 ohms.
It is a marketing decision based on what they think will sell better.

Aragon did the same with their 8088:
They claimed 200/400 for 8ohm/4ohm, but tests showed 245.9/408.1 for 8/4.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/aragon-8008-power-amplifier-measurements#toX9c8DVeQ6kGLfS.97

So, again, instead of doubling down, it is actually 1.66 times the power when the impedance is dropped to 4 ohms.

Truly doubling down is a bit of a "Holy Grail". I don't know which if any amps truly do it, but if any do, it would reflect exceptional circuit design with exceptionally efficient current handling capability.

However, as has been mentioned, it really doesn't matter unless your speakers are low impedance! And even then it is really about maximum power at 4 ohms (or whatever is the impedance of your speakers), not whether it doubles down.

 

[lovinthehd]

Thanks @KEW for the expanded example/explanation.

 

[Dave Blount]

Doubling down only counts if you're running 4 ohm or less.

and with that being said the majority of speakers fall into a 'nominal' rating of either 4 or 8 ohms. The key word being nominal, most conventional (box / cone) speakers convey their lowest impedances in the lowest octaves whereas di-poles (electrostatics) dip to their lowest levels in the upper octaves (thankfully little to no music content up there ..... at least not what must of us could hear !)

With respect to the AVR crowd and the general feeling of being 'equal' to more expensive and more robustly built amps when it comes to driving 'all' speaker types that is simply not true. Example ........ take a 100w $500 AVR (middle of the road by most standards) and a Plinius SA-102 (125w stereo amp) , now go and drive a pair of Martin Logan CLS's ....... you'll understand.

This isn't to say that AVR's don't have their place and sound good, I would guess since I subscribe to the 80/20 rule of life that they would perform admirably on the 80%, but where they have failed and I witnessed it in what I described above, it was a train wreck

 

[j_garcia]

If we are talking about speakers that NEED a heavy duty amp and present a serious load, then an amp capable of "doubling down" could be beneficial. I am not even sure we know which speakers are being driven here.

 

[Dave Blount]

I am not even sure we know which speakers are being driven here.

Good point, hopefully the Op will respond

 

[chaosrealm93]

Good point, hopefully the Op will respond

i have the PSB Imagine B currently, but hopefully upgrading to something better in the future

i just want the gear to be somewhat futureproof

 

[chaosrealm93]

In case you are not following what lovinthehd means, here is an example:
The Emotive XPA-2 (original generation) manufacturer's specs claim 250Watts RMS into 8 Ohms and 500 into 4 ohms.
When Gene measured, he stated:

http://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/emotiva-xpa-2/xpa-2-measurements

So, instead of two times the power it actually achieves 1.64 times the power (512/312=1.64)

So, what we see is Emotiva decided they wanted to claim "double down" status more than claiming the additional 50 Watts per channel into 8 ohms.
It is a marketing decision based on what they think will sell better.

Aragon did the same with their 8088:
They claimed 200/400 for 8ohm/4ohm, but tests showed 245.9/408.1 for 8/4.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/aragon-8008-power-amplifier-measurements#toX9c8DVeQ6kGLfS.97

So, again, instead of doubling down, it is actually 1.66 times the power when the impedance is dropped to 4 ohms.

Truly doubling down is a bit of a "Holy Grail". I don't know which if any amps truly do it, but if any do, it would reflect exceptional circuit design with exceptionally efficient current handling capability.

However, as has been mentioned, it really doesn't matter unless your speakers are low impedance! And even then it is really about maximum power at 4 ohms (or whatever is the impedance of your speakers), not whether it doubles down.

well according the the graphs on stereophile, i think the pair im running now dip down to 4 ohms at their lowest, but they are still rated at 8 ohm (i think)

would you say the speakers have to be rated at 4 ohms for this doubling down stuff to really matter?