Thinking diy 18

[lovinthehd]

well i stopped my car audio hobby to focus more on home theatre. I had 3 sundown audio 12's ported in an s10 off 3500watts and wanted louder lol. With bass i love it chest pounding and ear bleeding lol. Thats why i was thinking of wondering off onto the DIY path and go for 18's ported.

So now we're up to multiple ported 18"s? That's a good start if you want to try to emulate anything like the experience in the s10 . You going to make your own box or buy a flatpack?

 

[fuzz092888]

Well if there's anything you want to know and I can help, I will. I've built and run dual LMS Ultras both in their own boxes and dual opposed in a single box. UXL 18's in their own boxes and in a dual opposed box and have a pair of 21's that have a half finished box that I'll get to eventually. There are plenty of options out there, but if this is for HT you have to take quite a few things into account.

1) Power, depending on volume of the space all this is pointless unless you can and are willing to invest in power. This means dedicated 20 amp lines and reasonably expensive amps to provide said power. Volume of the room, desired SPL's and extension desired are all major contributing factors, but it all comes back to power. Without it the rest is just an mental exercise.

2) SPL's desired, this will largely determine driver selection and number of subs needed as well as overall power needs

3) Extension desired. Chasing single digits vs large SPL's in ported boxes are two slightly different animals. Speaking from experience, I'll chase single digits all day long. I want SPL's too, but I love that extension and follow a thread on AVS that tracks best bass scenes in movies.

There's more, but there's some food for thought.

 

[lovinthehd]

One thought on your friend's EP4000 is that has no dsp to apply a protective high pass filter for the driver, which you'll likely need to avoid killing your driver when you turn it up to 11, so you'll need another piece of gear....the Behringer iNuke DSP series is a popular amp for that application.

 

[fuzz092888]

One thought on your friend's EP4000 is that has no dsp to apply a protective high pass filter for the driver, which you'll likely need to avoid killing your driver when you turn it up to 11, so you'll need another piece of gear....the Behringer iNuke DSP series is a popular amp for that application.

I would skip both and go with a miniDSP. That way he can apply a high pass as needed if he goes ported and apply some additional EQ before running ARC.

 

[lovinthehd]

I would skip both and go with a miniDSP. That way he can apply a high pass as needed if he goes ported and apply some additional EQ before running ARC.

Skip both the EP4000 and a dsp model? What amp with the minidsp would you go with? FMU those iNuke DSP units are fairly easy to work with, plus they're built right in a reasonably priced amp box....and can also work with a minidsp IIRC as well. Personally I went with Crown XLS and minidsp route (and sealed 18s instead of ported).

 

[fuzz092888]

Skip both the EP4000 and a dsp model? What amp with the minidsp would you go with? FMU those iNuke DSP units are fairly easy to work with, plus they're built right in a reasonably priced amp box....and can also work with a minidsp IIRC as well. Personally I went with Crown XLS and minidsp route (and sealed 18s instead of ported).

inuke's don't deliver the rated power except at burst. Crown XLS can work depending on what I already mentioned. It all comes back to design and performance goals. I've run Crest, Peavy, Crown, and a few others. I've been able to demo and hear quite a few others as well. inuke's don't cut it IMO.

 

[lovinthehd]

inuke's don't deliver the rated power except at burst. Crown XLS can work depending on what I already mentioned. It all comes back to design and performance goals. I've run Crest, Peavy, Crown, and a few others. I've been able to demo and hear quite a few others as well. inuke's don't cut it IMO.

Okay, what about buddy's EP4000 the OP has access to (altho don't know price)? Throw QSC in the mix of possibilities, too, was just looking at the GX series, look pretty nice for the $.

 

[fuzz092888]

Okay, what about buddy's EP4000 the OP has access to (altho don't know price)? Throw QSC in the mix of possibilities, too, was just looking at the GX series, look pretty nice for the $.

EP amps seem a bit more conservatively rated, QSC amps are usually pretty decent. However, it all comes back to the right tool for the job which again goes back to what is required to drive the proposed subs to the desired output levels.

 

[rojo]

I'm struggling with this thread.

@Hostility wants stronger sub bass output. He has two 12" subs, and is considering replacing them with a single 18" sub with a potentially lower acoustic F3 (as opposed to artificially DSP-extended) in an appropriately designed enclosure, with the option of building a second one down the road. Doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.

Then there was some vague bs about precise calculations and complicated math, implying that satisfactory sub bass requires reading Floyd Toole's book and selecting a specific sub mated perfectly to the exact dimensions of the room, that anything beyond the least common denominator is a detriment to the sound; and that shaking the foundations of the building is unacceptable for enjoyable sound quality (even though that enjoyment is purely subjective). Then a suggestion that the Dayton 18 HO would offer no substantial improvement, that the Ultimax would be a better choice, and some stuff about ARC, and some other stuff about a 15A circuit being incapable of powering anything stronger than what OP currently uses, and then I just couldn't take it any more. I sincerely apologize for stepping on toes, but I don't think any of this advice is practical for the OP.

A single 18 (Sd of 180in²) is physically capable of moving more air than his two twelves (combined Sd around 160in²) even without upgrading the AC circuit amperage. This is good, since OP described a renting and landlord situation. I seriously doubt rewiring the breaker box is an option here. Anyway, as a rough illustration, here's a graph of Josh Ricci's CEA-2010 measurements for a sealed Dayton 18 HO versus the SVS PB12-NSD.

That's sealed. A vented Dayton 18 HO will have even greater output < 40Hz. Seems to me that this will achieve the desired result.

The best advice in this thread thus far has been to get a miniDSP. With that you can shape your curve however you like, and it'll also let you handle the low pass filter as well as an infrasonic filter if you need to limit excursion below tuning. See the link in my sig for my CSS SDX12, and you can see an example of how profoundly you can modify your curve using a miniDSP.

Indeed, if you add a miniDSP to your existing setup and play with your house curve a bit, you might discover that your PB12-NSDs are sufficient to achieve the sound you want, and don't need replaced. Maybe you like a 3dB per octave slope to pressurize your ear canals when approaching infrasonic bass. Maybe you prefer a shelf at 80Hz to feel a kick in your chest. Of course if the peaks produced by your existing subs are clipping and you truly do need more headroom, you can reserve the right to build your 18s later. The miniDSP will still be of benefit regardless of whether or not you DIY a Dayton 18 HO.

The only drawback to moving from two 12s to a single 18 is that you narrow your sweet spot. Multiple subs are preferable to a single for better consistency across a wider listening area. So, yeah, if you do DIY, then don't stop at a single sub.

I'm hoping @Haoleb will return and restore the build images on www.haoleb.com for his Dayton 18 HO build thread. If not, then you can still see the images on archive.org.

 

[lovinthehd]

Missed a coupla points but you're here now....with a pictureless build thread? LOL. Maybe some of these still have pictures https://www.google.com/#q=dayton+18"+ho+subwoofer+build+thread

I'm struggling with this thread.

@Hostility wants stronger sub bass output. He has two 12" subs, and is considering replacing them with a single 18" sub with a potentially lower acoustic F3 (as opposed to artificially DSP-extended) in an appropriately designed enclosure, with the option of building a second one down the road. Doesn't sound like a bad idea to me.

Then there was some vague bs about precise calculations and complicated math, implying that satisfactory sub bass requires reading Floyd Toole's book and selecting a specific sub mated perfectly to the exact dimensions of the room, that anything beyond the least common denominator is a detriment to the sound; and that shaking the foundations of the building is unacceptable for enjoyable sound quality (even though that enjoyment is purely subjective). Then a suggestion that the Dayton 18 HO would offer no substantial improvement, that the Ultimax would be a better choice, and some stuff about ARC, and some other stuff about a 15A circuit being incapable of powering anything stronger than what OP currently uses, and then I just couldn't take it any more. I sincerely apologize for stepping on toes, but I don't think any of this advice is practical for the OP.

A single 18 (Sd of 180in²) is physically capable of moving more air than his two twelves (combined Sd around 160in²) even without upgrading the AC circuit amperage. This is good, since OP described a renting and landlord situation. I seriously doubt rewiring the breaker box is an option here. Anyway, as a rough illustration, here's a graph of Josh Ricci's CEA-2010 measurements for a sealed Dayton 18 HO versus the SVS PB12-NSD.

That's sealed. A vented Dayton 18 HO will have even greater output < 40Hz. Seems to me that this will achieve the desired result.

The best advice in this thread thus far has been to get a miniDSP. With that you can shape your curve however you like, and it'll also let you handle the low pass filter as well as an infrasonic filter if you need to limit excursion below tuning. See the link in my sig for my CSS SDX12, and you can see an example of how profoundly you can modify your curve using a miniDSP.

Indeed, if you add a miniDSP to your existing setup and play with your house curve a bit, you might discover that your PB12-NSDs are sufficient to achieve the sound you want, and don't need replaced. Maybe you like a 3dB per octave slope to pressurize your ear canals when approaching infrasonic bass. Maybe you prefer a shelf at 80Hz to feel a kick in your chest. Of course if the peaks produced by your existing subs are clipping and you truly do need more headroom, you can reserve the right to build your 18s later. The miniDSP will still be of benefit regardless of whether or not you DIY a Dayton 18 HO.

The only drawback to moving from two 12s to a single 18 is that you narrow your sweet spot. Multiple subs are preferable to a single for better consistency across a wider listening area. So, yeah, if you do DIY, then don't stop at a single sub.

I'm hoping @Haoleb will return and restore the build images on www.haoleb.com for his Dayton 18 HO build thread. If not, then you can still see the images on archive.org.

 

[rojo]

Missed a coupla points but you're here now....with a pictureless build thread? LOL. Maybe some of these still have pictures https://www.google.com/#q=dayton+18"+ho+subwoofer+build+thread

Yeah, I PM'd Haoleb about the missing pics. The archive.org archive of the thread still has pics though.

 

[Hostility]

Well i told my buddy to not bother with the amp at this time as he wants to sell it and I'm still up in the air. I didn't think about adding a mini dsp to the mix already. Not sure if i know how to use it or eq it but i guess i could always learn. My orig. plan was to find a 3rd matching sub, hard to find as they are replaced now with the newer version but I'm sure some point one will pop up locally. Maybe the best option and cheapest at this time is to add in the mini dsp and see what i can do, worst case if its still not enough at least i already have it for the DIY route. Right now with my set up my Belkin is telling me I'm only using up maybe 5 to 8 amps going full tilt so i still have room on my single 15amp circuit but theres no way i can upgrade to a 20amp, not until i buy a house in the next few years. I already told my gf when we get a house its game over in the basement lol

 

[fuzz092888]

Don't forget the measurement mic to go with the miniDSP.

 

[Hostility]

Just checked out MINIDSP website, confused on what i need. i know i need the mic but what unit?

 

[rojo]

Just checked out MINIDSP website, confused on what i need. i know i need the mic but what unit?

You need the MiniDSP 2x4 Rev. A plus a software plugin. If you plan to have max 2 subs, then get the 2-way Advanced. If you think you might add a 3rd sub or bass shakers later, get the 4-way Advanced. I recommend getting the 2-way Advanced plugin for now regardless, as it lets you apply corrections to your corrections for each sub (measure, correct, apply; then re-measure, correct again, and apply the corrected corrections to an additional set of filters); whereas the 4-way Advanced isn't quite that flexible. And if you change your mind later, you're only out another $10.

For an excellent tutorial on how to measure and feed miniDSP your corrections, see AustinJerry's Room EQ Wizard tutorial on AVS Forum. The MiniDSP and UMIK-1 ship by steam boat from China, so once you order you'll have a couple weeks of waiting. Might not be a bad idea to go ahead and start familiarizing yourself with that tutorial.

 

[Hostility]

perfect thank you @rojo , might be a few weeks till i can get this ordered up, but that gives me some time to try and learn this before i get my hands on it. So with this unit i should be able to help flatten out the response and actually eq each sub and level match both subs?

 

[fuzz092888]

perfect thank you @rojo , might be a few weeks till i can get this ordered up, but that gives me some time to try and learn this before i get my hands on it. So with this unit i should be able to help flatten out the response and actually eq each sub and level match both subs?

Yes, with REW you'll be able to apply custom EQ biquads and you'll also be able to apply the high pass filters you'll need to maximize extension while protecting the driver of ported subs. Level matching can be done with the miniDSP's, but I still prefer to level match with amplifier gain rather than digitally.