Pioneer Elite SC-87 on my boat will not stay on

[Mario Bustamante]

I have a Pioneer SC-87 on my boat. When you turn it on the display says "Power On" and then immediately shuts down. The blue light on the front that says "iPod" flashes, so it has power. We had a power outage but the receiver is plugged into a high end UPS with surge protection.

Is there something that needs to be reset?

Thanks,

Mario

 

[lovinthehd]

You checked for stray wires on the speaker connections and that sort of thing? Does it do it with nothing connected to the avr? You could try a soft reset (unplugging it for a while) or a full microprocessor/factory reset (instructions should be in your manual).

 

[Mario Bustamante]

I did some research (which is how I found that this is the best AV forum on the net) and unplugged it for a while and that did not work. I was going to do the factory reset but doesn't the receiver have to be powered on in order to do it? The first step is to "switch the receiver to standby" but the receiver shuts off within a second after I press the Standby/On button.

I'm going to the boat this afternoon and try the factory reset, but I can't check for connections until tomorrow since we have to take a wall unit apart to get to the back of the receiver.

Thanks,

Mario

 

[lovinthehd]

I did some research (which is how I found that this is the best AV forum on the net) and unplugged it for a while and that did not work. I was going to do the factory reset but doesn't the receiver have to be powered on in order to do it? The first step is to "switch the receiver to standby" but the receiver shuts off within a second after I press the Standby/On button.

I'm going to the boat this afternoon and try the factory reset, but I can't check for connections until tomorrow since we have to take a wall unit apart to get to the back of the receiver.

Thanks,

Mario

Yes, the avr will need power for the full reset, and if you don't have time to initiate it before it shuts off that could be an issue, may not....one way to find out. Almost all receivers are in standby merely by being plugged in; the switch on the panel takes it from standby to full on. I'd still check all wiring for shorts as a first step.

 

[Mario Bustamante]

I checked out the unit today. Disconnected everything and found that the HDMI 1 cable was fried. The receiver is in "Protected Mode" so it sees a short and shuts down. Since it shuts down with no connections, the short must be internal, so I guess I'm in for a trip to the service center.

Thanks for your help!

Mario

 

[lovinthehd]

I checked out the unit today. Disconnected everything and found that the HDMI 1 cable was fried. The receiver is in "Protected Mode" so it sees a short and shuts down. Since it shuts down with no connections, the short must be internal, so I guess I'm in for a trip to the service center.

Thanks for your help!

Mario

Bummer it wasn't something simpler....good luck!

 

[TLS Guy]

Is that receiver powered from a generator ever? Where do you live? The latter is important so we know how your countries electric service is configured. Also do you get dockside service power form countries with a different electric service arrangement concerning neutrals and phase.

The fact you had a burned HDMI cable means that somehow the double insulation arrangement of your receiver was defeated. So the chassis and ground plane of the receiver became live, and the screen and ground of the HDMI cable was the lowest resistance to ground.

I strongly suspect that there is a serious issue with the power on that boat and that your receiver was destroyed by it. It is likely really destroyed.

 

[Mario Bustamante]

The receiver runs on generator power most of the time but it's connected to a high end UPS with surge protection.

We opened up the unit and we could see the damage on the HDMI 1 port where the bad cable was connected. If we replace the HDMI circuit board will that fix the problem?

Thanks for your post,

Mario

 

[TLS Guy]

The receiver runs on generator power most of the time but it's connected to a high end UPS with surge protection.

We opened up the unit and we could see the damage on the HDMI 1 port where the bad cable was connected. If we replace the HDMI circuit board will that fix the problem?

Thanks for your post,

Mario

I would highly doubt that just changing the HDMI board will fix this problem. The whole unit will have to be thoroughly checked out. I suspect it will be cheaper to buy a new receiver.

Generators give very rough power. A UPS like you describe will not do the job for a delicate piece of equipment like a receiver.

UPS units come in various types. For your application you need to go to the top on the mountain and use a fully regenerative UPS. A regenerative UPS works constantly from an inverter. In other words it has an oscillator that generates a pure AC wave from scratch using big power transistors. It totally isolates your electronics from the generator constantly. This is just the situation those units are designed for. They have limited application because they have an efficiency of about 40 to 50%, and generate a lot of heat, and so need really good ventilation.

I have a generator here for wind and or ice storms. I have APC smart UPS units. However when you scope the output on generator power there is massive distortion of the AC wave. It is nothing like the grid. So I shut all my equipment down as soon as power is lost and the generator cuts in.

The only way to get clean power from a generator unit to safely drive an AV based HT rig on a generator long term is with a fully regenerative UPS.

You need to take this advice or it will not be the last time you replace a burned up receiver, or worse, which is fire at sea. That is one of the worst disasters that befall a mariner.

 

[Mario Bustamante]

TLS Guy,

Thanks again for your help. You certainly know what you are talking about. I don't know much about A/V but I do know boats. Almost every boat has a music system of some sort and anything with an air conditioned cabin has a stereo system and they all run off a generator. I've had boats for many years and this is the biggest and best one I've ever had. It is also the only one that has had this sort of a problem.

Based on your comments I am leaning on buying a lower end receiver as a replacement. Is it your opinion that a marine environment is not suitable for something along the lines of what I had? What would you recommend?

Thanks,

Mario

 

[TLS Guy]

TLS Guy,

Thanks again for your help. You certainly know what you are talking about. I don't know much about A/V but I do know boats. Almost every boat has a music system of some sort and anything with an air conditioned cabin has a stereo system and they all run off a generator. I've had boats for many years and this is the biggest and best one I've ever had. It is also the only one that has had this sort of a problem.

Based on your comments I am leaning on buying a lower end receiver as a replacement. Is it your opinion that a marine environment is not suitable for something along the lines of what I had? What would you recommend?

Thanks,

Mario

It is not the marine environment per se. The issue is the powering. Generators do not produce clean power of and in themselves. In addition you are going to ports of call with Heaven knows what hook ups. Marinas are just renowned for awful sloppy work and facilities.

As I said, if you want to enjoy HT afloat then you need to power the equipment from a regenerative UPS. Not a UPS with just surge protection. A properly sized regenerative UPS will power your equipment safely with clean power.

Lastly, forget cheap receivers. They are a total waste of space and have very short lives. In your environment a very short life.

One other thing to consider is using separates. Although a pre pro and power amps is more expensive, in your case you would be able to use a smaller regenerative UPS. It is the units with microprocessors and delicate ICs that need protection. These are low powered devices. Power amps are generally robust and would tolerate running from the generator most likely. It is the power amps that are the power hogs.

By the way I also know boats. I grew up on the River Medway in the Medway Towns in Kent. My father had a Marina at Gillinghan Pier, Medway Pier Marine. I now live on Minnesota Lakes country.

I have done a lot of work on boats. Yes, most boats have an audio system. However the system is identical to car systems. Low powered ones run off 12 volts. Higher powered ones run from the battery, but have inverters in their power supplies to increase voltage and therefore power. The battery and the inverter isolates the electronics from the alternator, and does the same thing a regenerative UPS would do.

I have never seen a boat with an AV receiver. If I was asked to do the job it would be powered from an inverter providing regulated AC power at the voltage required by the receiver. Anything else would be bound to end in major trouble.

 

[TLS Guy]

I have been thinking further about your problem. I have given you the correct advice, but the advice is incomplete as I have no details on your boats electrical system or for that matter he AVR that blew up.

First I need to know where you are and which jurisdiction of electrical codes your boat was designed for. Boats are frequently built and resold in different regions in their lifetime.

The first issue to sort out is what is the voltage your boat is designed for and how is that voltage presented at the outlets.

In other words is it like this?

Or like this?

In the first example there is a live and neutral pin. In the second there is no neutral and both lines are live, but 180 degrees out of phase.

You can easily tell the difference with a multimeter.

In the first if you measure the voltage between ground and each of the pins in turn, one will have the whole specified voltage and the other will be at ground potential or very close.

In the second example, both lines will have half the specified voltage between ground. You will find no neutral.

Because of the description of the state of your receiver I'm concerned that your receiver was designed for the first option, but your boat has the second of the two arrangements. That would cause what you found.

Now once you have the correct UPS you need to make sure it outputs the correct arrangement for the receiver you have. Make sure you understand that receivers are built differently for the markets they are sold in. So you need to be careful here.

Now to safely run a receiver TV, BD players etc. off a generator you need a UPS that outputs continuously from your converter. These are generally known as double conversion UPS units, like this.

Now we are not done yet. I don't know the details of your generator, or how big it is. This is important. A UPS even if not a double conversion unit still switches to an inverter when protecting your gear. Now an inverter starts by converting AC to DC before regenerating the AC wave form. Now because of this if the generator is not at least twice the power of the UPS then severe wave form distortion will occur throughout your electrical system not just the devices being powered. This is why I have such a big generator here on Benedict Lake so when the power goes out and the UPS units cut in I don't have a really serious problem.

Now I understand that engine compartments in boats can be challenging spaces, so your generator may be too small.

However I understand there are now some UPS units that have high frequency digital rectification instead of the usual thyristors and diodes. This double power rule does not apply to those. I have not researched these and know next to nothing about them.

If you still want AV while afloat it is definitely possible. However since this is a little complex and you have no experience of this, for the sake of your equipment and especially your safety it would probably be wise to engage a fully qualified marine electrical engineer. This means not just a local electrician.

At this point I have really taken you as far as I can.

I have been on this forum for 12 years or so, and we have never had a question about AV on the high seas. We have had a number about audio though which is an easier nut.

With what is available though you should be able to enjoy AV on your boat, and do it with safely and without the problems you have had.

 

[Mario Bustamante]

I don't think the generator is too small. The boat is wired in 2 separate electrical systems. The port side is powered by a 32KW Kohler generator and the starboard side is powered by a 24 KW Kohler unit. The two halves of the boat are independent but can be unified by "closing the bars" so the whole boat can be run with a single generator. We can run the entire boat with the small generator in most conditions but when we are at anchor and use the zero speed stabilizers we use the large one. There are a lot of things we normally do not run (washer, drier, water maker, oven etc.) that if we ever wanted to use simultaneously would require that we open the bars and run both generators.

BTW, I believe the boat is wired with a neutral wire. The electrician will be here later this week and I will verify. I read your new post and it's very interesting. I will have more followup later. I can see your answers will be very helpful to others with marine problems.

Thanks,

Mario

 

[TLS Guy]

I don't think the generator is too small. The boat is wired in 2 separate electrical systems. The port side is powered by a 32KW Kohler generator and the starboard side is powered by a 24 KW Kohler unit. The two halves of the boat are independent but can be unified by "closing the bars" so the whole boat can be run with a single generator. We can run the entire boat with the small generator in most conditions but when we are at anchor and use the zero speed stabilizers we use the large one. There are a lot of things we normally do not run (washer, drier, water maker, oven etc.) that if we ever wanted to use simultaneously would require that we open the bars and run both generators.

BTW, I believe the boat is wired with a neutral wire. The electrician will be here later this week and I will verify. I read your new post and it's very interesting. I will have more followup later. I can see your answers will be very helpful to others with marine problems.

Thanks,

Mario

Thank you for the follow up. Either of those two generators will be powerful enough to run the double conversion UPS without upsetting the boat's electrical supply from the diodes and thyristors in the UPS.

I'm interested in the two generators able to being linked. My question is how are the generators phase matched as they are linked? You must have generators in the same phase exactly before linking them and you need to keep them there. If the generators are not connected at perfect phase, then it causes severe mayhem in the electrical supply. At the power plants they watch the wave form on a scope of the power station and the generator to come on line. They use a dual channel scope and adjust the speed of the generator to come on line to make it perfectly phase matched. Then they bring the generator online. Once the generator is on line it will stay in phase linked to the other generators as if any generator starts to get out of line it is kept in place by the back EMF. I suspect these days there is a computer system to get the phase right at link. May be your boat has an automated way of doing this. That is another thing you need to look into, as if this is not correct then you have another problem to attend to. Incidentally the pahse has to be perfect for every generator on the grid. That is why you can rely on the clock on your oven etc, to keep perfect time.

Now one last thing. The double conversion UPS needs to have its input match the boat's electrical system. The output of the UPS needs to match the units it is supplying. All units connected to the UPS must be in identical conformity.

Once you get this right, and it seems you understand what I'm telling you, then you will enjoy your HT afloat without any concerns of damaging your equipment. The double conversion UPS will TOTALLY isolate the units supplied by it from the boats electrical system. Only a double conversion UPS can do that. Under your conditions that is essential to staying out of trouble.

 

[Mario Bustamante]

No, they can't be run together. When you run both the bars have to be open and each one works independently of the other. To run the boat with a single generator you have to close the bars so both systems act like a single system.

Thanks,

Mario

 

[TLS Guy]

No, they can't be run together. When you run both the bars have to be open and each one works independently of the other. To run the boat with a single generator you have to close the bars so both systems act like a single system.

Thanks,

Mario

Oh! Thanks for clearing up that confusion. That had me worried about another confounding variable.

I think we have now covered all the vital points and have a workable plan. Please understand I'm not there on the boat with you. However I think I have a good handle on your situation. I have high confidence in this plan if properly carried out.

By the way, I love boats. I would dearly love you to post a picture of your boat. She sounds a splendid vessel.

Here is my Marina taken at Sunrise on Benedict Lake Minnesota.

Benedict Lake is part of the huge Leech Lake system. Benedict connects to Leech Lake via an easily navigable short river.

 

[M Code]

I have a Pioneer SC-87 on my boat. When you turn it on the display says "Power On" and then immediately shuts down. The blue light on the front that says "iPod" flashes, so it has power. We had a power outage but the receiver is plugged into a high end UPS with surge protection.

Is there something that needs to be reset?

Thanks,

Mario

Ur electrical system has some major issues. U mentioned the HDMI cable was smoked, what source component was connected by HDMI cable? U will need to replace the AVR not worth it to fix, plus new technologies continue to be introduced. However before hooking everything up U better do a thorough checkup for the basic electrical system including max voltage swings.. Maybe ur UPS is smoked..

Just my $0.02...

 

[TLS Guy]

Ur electrical system has some major issues. U mentioned the HDMI cable was smoked, what source component was connected by HDMI cable? U will need to replace the AVR not worth it to fix, plus new technologies continue to be introduced. However before hooking everything up U better do a thorough checkup for the basic electrical system including max voltage swings.. Maybe ur UPS is smoked..

Just my $0.02...

Please read the whole thread. We have this gentleman sorted out I think.

 

[Mario Bustamante]

 

[Mario Bustamante]

And here is the engine room,