WIP - My Theater 2.0

[panteragstk]

Hey guys. We moved into the new house in August. Had the new baby last month and now I finally get to spend some time getting my new theater up and running.

The plan:

Keep my current Mitsubishi HC4000 1080P DLP projector until I get either a JVC 4K or a somewhat moderately priced 4K DLP unit comes out.

120" DIY Spandex AT screen. Had one in the old house, but it was my first try and the plans I got weren't the best. Plus it was a grey screen with black backing. Going with white and black backing to brighten things up again and to prepare for a new projector.

7.4.4 Atmos setup. My current receiver is an Onkyo TX-NR809. While it is a decent receiver, it has it's issues. It does have Audyssey MultiEQ XT which does a pretty good job, but I want XT32 and Sub EQ since I will have a sub in each corner of the room.

Current contenders for new receivers are Denon X6300 and the X4300 if I want to use an external amp to drive two of the Atmos speakers...I don't.

Crown XLS1500 to drive the 4 subs. Great amp.

Subs are 2x DIY Infinity 12" 1260w and 2x 1262w each in their own ~ 2 cu ft box. Boxes will be finished in satin black.

Front three speakers are Pioneer SP-FS52 Andrew Jones towers. Love these for the price/performance ratio. Great speakers for the money.

Side and surround will be old Kenwood HTIB speakers I got from my parents. I know. You don't have to say it. They work until I get matching Pioneer bookshelves or something else.

Atmos speakers are TBD. Can't decide if I want to cut 6-8" holes in my ceiling or not. I don't.

My only source will be my trusty HTPC that will use SageTV for all TV viewing and Plex to serve up my movie collection (see picture above. It is under the Onkyo receiver). I'm toying with the idea of getting an additional Nvidia Shield TV that will replace the HTPC due to it having all the streaming services and it supports all the new HDR, Atmos, DTS:X and the like. We'll see how the HTPC does it's job first.

The room itself is 16'Wx15'Dx8'H. Kind of an odd shape being wider than deep, but it allows me to have a very wide space for lots of seating. Considering two 4 person home theater style seats to replace my current couch/love seat combo. I'll be about 9' from the screen which should be fine. Any closer and I'd have to downsize my screen.

The room is pretty much a storage room now so I get to find new homes for all the crap that's in there, but it won't be too bad.

There are 6 can lights in the ceiling and an air intake and vent. Placement of Atmos speakers will be at the advice of everyone here. My brother works as an installer for Magnolia, but I'm not sure how much they've actually taught him.

As you can see from the above picture there is the intake pretty much right between the left side and left back speaker on the ceiling. I think Atmos speaker placement will have me put it enough away from it that it will work, but I'll have to measure and make sure.

You can also see that the guy that did the prewire was...special. The lower plates are from his first try. I had him wire again because he assumed I was going to have all my equipment in the front of the theater. He was wrong. It goes on the outside of the room.

Above is the correct placement for the 7 channel pre-wire. I guess he didn't realize that labeling the wires is a pretty standard thing. Glad I paid them for the prewire. They wouldn't do more. For some reason. I did have them put two dedicated 20A circuits and cat6/RG6 in place. This is outside the theater in the Game Room. Good location.

I told him to just have the front three channels come out of the same hole. No labels again. Thanks crappy wire puller guy. I have a toner so I got them all identified, but still.

Pretty much it for now. I'll update the thread as I progress.

Any suggestions on Projector, speakers, receiver and anything else are always welcome. Sorry for the bad PQ. My phone is getting old.

 

[panteragstk]

Also. I plan to build a false wall at the front to hide the front subs and just to keep things tidy. I plan to make removable panels in case I need to get to anything. If anyone has experience/advice in this area it would be appreciated.

I also plan to darken the walls and get new carpet, but don't know if I'd have to remove the false wall for the carpet install. That may make things a bit difficult.

 

[shadyJ]

I can see you don't want to cut holes in your ceiling, but if you want Atmos with height channels, you will need to mound speakers up or around there, so I would say you might as well just put speakers in your ceiling. One alternative is something like the SVS Elevation speakers, or the JBL 8320s if you like high dynamics. Keep in mind you can have Atmos speaker systems without the height speakers, just go the wide speaker route.

 

[panteragstk]

Yeah, I'm probably going to have to do it. Just need to find the right speakers.

I think 6.5" ceiling will be the way to go unless I come up with something better.

 

[panteragstk]

So I think after talking to you guys and my brother in-ceiling is pretty much the way to go without building a custom speaker. Not opposed to it, but I think if my ceiling height were 10' it wouldn't be as obtrusive as it will be with my current 8' height.

So, the real question now is whether or not to go with 4 6.5" speakers or 4 8" speakers.

I'm looking at HTD speakers as I've heard them and they sound quite nice. They should fit in with my current pioneer fronts nicely. The HD-65 and HD-80 models are the ones I'm looking at. Would the added frequency range matter all that much for Atmos channels?

 

[shadyJ]

You might swing for the 6.5" woofers. The reason being that Atmos height channels want a wide dispersion, and the smaller the woofers, the wider the dispersion. You will want speakers that match all the way around, so you should think about using the same speakers for the ceiling that you use for the side and rear surrounds, in which case, use some in-wall speakers. You can use in-wall speakers in the ceiling just fine, btw, no difference in performance. In fact the in-walls probably would be better than the in-ceilings.

 

[panteragstk]

You might swing for the 6.5" woofers. The reason being that Atmos height channels want a wide dispersion, and the smaller the woofers, the wider the dispersion. You will want speakers that match all the way around, so you should think about using the same speakers for the ceiling that you use for the side and rear surrounds, in which case, use some in-wall speakers. You can use in-wall speakers in the ceiling just fine, btw, no difference in performance. In fact the in-walls probably would be better than the in-ceilings.

Really? You would do all in wall? That's an interesting take. I thought in walls were generally inferior to cabinet speakers (I'm sure there are exceptions).

What's your opinion on getting matching pioneer bookshelves for all the surround/Atmos channels?

 

[shadyJ]

Matching bookshelfs would be good too- depending on how you mount them. The ideal is to get everything timbre matched. If you haven't read this yet, do so. Since you are going to spend a chunk here, might as well get the most for your money.

In-wall speakers do not have to be bad, and for the surround channels in something like Atmos, they will be fine. I would prefer regular speakers for the front stage though.

The thing is, placing bookshelf speakers right against the wall might actually be worse than in-walls. If you are going to do bookshelfs, make sure they have some space.

What I see is that you are going to spend a lot on electronics in order to get your 7.1.4 system, but it is a bit inordinate compared to what you are spending on speakers. The Pioneer speakers are not bad, but... If it were me, I would settle for a non-Atmos system in order to get better speakers. One thing you might do is use the Pioneer towers as the rear and side surrounds, and get something significantly better for the front stage, even if it foregoes a Atmos setup.

 

[panteragstk]

I currently have a fairly robust receiver. It really just lacks MultiEQ XT32 and Sub EQ, but the sub EQ could be accomplished with a MiniDSP or something similar. I'm not sure how much of a sonic benefit 32 would be over regular XT, but I do plan on treating the room at some point.

Right now the receiver isn't going anywhere soon, but I just wanted to get started on finding the right speakers since I really only have the front stage. I can always re-purpose my current towers if needed.

Since you mentioned using them as for side surround duty (can't use them for back speakers. Back row is flush against the wall) would simply placing them on the floor about 100-110 degrees from the main row work well enough for the back row to have a decent experience?

I suppose I could go all in wall and have a really clean install. Would remove the need for a false wall in front, but I'd have to audition a lot of in wall speakers to make a decision. I do like HTD speakers though. Might just go that route and upgrade in the future. That would be for in-wall or towers/bookshelf speakers. Their level 3 line is pretty fantastic, but WAY above what I paid for the pioneers.

My last question is this. I've found that when auditioning speakers music is much more revealing than movies when it comes to finding if a speaker sounds good or not. I've found more than one instance where I thought movies sounded good on a set of speakers only to be surprised at how bad they sounded when listening to music.

I bring this up to say that I've also found that a speaker that sounds amazing for music doesn't necessarily sound "better" for movies. Sure the dialog is a bit clearer, but price/performance comes in to play at that point. This theater will be 90% movies. My music rigs are elsewhere in the house. Does getting a better front three still make sense for me? If so, what would you consider a decent upgrade for what I have? I'm a big DIY guys so I'm not opposed at all to building a slew of speakers if need be.

 

[slipperybidness]

I currently have a fairly robust receiver. It really just lacks MultiEQ XT32 and Sub EQ, but the sub EQ could be accomplished with a MiniDSP or something similar. I'm not sure how much of a sonic benefit 32 would be over regular XT, but I do plan on treating the room at some point.

Right now the receiver isn't going anywhere soon, but I just wanted to get started on finding the right speakers since I really only have the front stage. I can always re-purpose my current towers if needed.

Since you mentioned using them as for side surround duty (can't use them for back speakers. Back row is flush against the wall) would simply placing them on the floor about 100-110 degrees from the main row work well enough for the back row to have a decent experience?

I suppose I could go all in wall and have a really clean install. Would remove the need for a false wall in front, but I'd have to audition a lot of in wall speakers to make a decision. I do like HTD speakers though. Might just go that route and upgrade in the future. That would be for in-wall or towers/bookshelf speakers. Their level 3 line is pretty fantastic, but WAY above what I paid for the pioneers.

My last question is this. I've found that when auditioning speakers music is much more revealing than movies when it comes to finding if a speaker sounds good or not. I've found more than one instance where I thought movies sounded good on a set of speakers only to be surprised at how bad they sounded when listening to music.

I bring this up to say that I've also found that a speaker that sounds amazing for music doesn't necessarily sound "better" for movies. Sure the dialog is a bit clearer, but price/performance comes in to play at that point. This theater will be 90% movies. My music rigs are elsewhere in the house. Does getting a better front three still make sense for me? If so, what would you consider a decent upgrade for what I have? I'm a big DIY guys so I'm not opposed at all to building a slew of speakers if need be.

As far as DIY....have you seen this thread yet:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/heavily-modyfied-os-for-surround-and-atmos-use.106191/

And, PE now has the Amiga, same designer as the Overnight Sensations
https://www.parts-express.com/amiga-mt-tower-speaker-kit-with-baffle-only--300-7122

Basically, if you like the Overnight Sensations, then you'll like the Amigas. The tonal balance is similar with slightly relaxed voicing to allow for long listening sessions without fatigue. However, the quality of the drivers will definitely highlight finer details in any recording. The imaging creates a wide soundstage, as a quality monopole speaker should, with a very tight center image, and sounds seeming to appear around and behind the speakers. The bass extension should definitely surprise; with an F3 of 34 Hz, there is a good chance you can leave the subwoofer turned off for most purposes. The overall sound is big, it is a 2-way that produces like a 3-way.

 

[panteragstk]

As far as DIY....have you seen this thread yet:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/heavily-modyfied-os-for-surround-and-atmos-use.106191/

And, PE now has the Amiga, same designer as the Overnight Sensations
https://www.parts-express.com/amiga-mt-tower-speaker-kit-with-baffle-only--300-7122

Basically, if you like the Overnight Sensations, then you'll like the Amigas. The tonal balance is similar with slightly relaxed voicing to allow for long listening sessions without fatigue. However, the quality of the drivers will definitely highlight finer details in any recording. The imaging creates a wide soundstage, as a quality monopole speaker should, with a very tight center image, and sounds seeming to appear around and behind the speakers. The bass extension should definitely surprise; with an F3 of 34 Hz, there is a good chance you can leave the subwoofer turned off for most purposes. The overall sound is big, it is a 2-way that produces like a 3-way.

I did see that thread. It's what lead me to comment on on-wall height speakers. Especially since there don't seem to be any made for that specific purpose. I just have to consider what something like that would do to my headroom. Don't think it would be too bad, but I want to make sure.

As for the Amigas, those look nice and the price is good too. F3 is nice and low. Much lower than my current set. I could build 5 of those guys and 6 of the modified speakers in the first thread and be on my way.

Are the speakers in the first thread similar in tone to the Amigas?

EDIT: I can see that they are similar. That should be a great start. I'm now thinking of this method VS all In-wall. All in-wall would be an interesting system if I get the right speakers.

 

[shadyJ]

Getting better front stage speakers might make sense depending on a few things. First, do you feel that the Pioneers have enough dynamic range for what you want? Do they sound good enough? I have heard them on a couple occasions before and I didn't think they sounded bad. I think a DIY Sound Group SEOS-based speaker would blow them away though. I have heard a slew of those, they are all quite good.

I think one thing you should consider doing is build a couple more subs and use miniDSP to equalize as much of the low end for all subs as possible. Use a high crossover frequency, so the subs and miniDSP can cover as many room modes as possible.

 

[panteragstk]

I think the minidsp will always be on my wish list until I get one. Too enticing of a toy to not want one.

That said I think I'm leaning toward your inwall recommendation just for the simplicity aspect when it comes to installing the screen and the extra foot of viewing distance I'll gain from not building a false wall.

The question is now what in walls to get? I'm partial to ribbon speakers, but have heard they aren't that good at handling dynamic peaks that movie tracks can have. No clue if there is merit to that.

Golden ear looks great, but that is a hefty chunk of change. Martin Logan seems to make some nice ones too. Not sure what I'll be able to audition so suggestions are welcome.

 

[shadyJ]

For in-walls, there are KEF THX and Klipsch THX which both look good, but pricey. If you want to save some money, there are the Hsu HIWs, and Hsu is coming out with an in-wall version of their new CCB-8. Really good in-wall tend to be expensive. There is Triad and Atlantic Technology, and those are pricey too.

 

[panteragstk]

The Hsu look very nice. I was considering the cabinet versions when picking speakers for my theater the first go round. I'm going to have to consider those. Great price too.

 

[panteragstk]

Ok. Made a ton of progress since I got to get an unpaid week off from work so they can make more profit....I digress.

All these drivers need boxes built. The theater will have 4 infinity 1260w/1262w subs. One in each corner. Right not there are two installed and the boxes for the other two are almost done. The big Audiobahn is for something else. One of the 1260w is going back in the living room.

Getting the projector lined up so we can put the front three speakers behind the screen.

Someone wanted to "help". She is confused about something... Only one row of seating until I get new seats. Riser is already done.

I got a deal on a VERY nice fully adjustable "flush" mount for the projector. Electrician was apparently confused as to "as close as possible to the ceiling" meant when he installed my outlet.

I need to build a rack now. If I can find someone to cut tempered, tinted glass. May end up buying a rack. Gotta keep the tiny hands away. I have the crown XLS 1500 for the subs. I'll use a bit over 1300w when all is done. The denon 4300h is powering every speaker except the two "rear height" atmos speakers. That's where the kenwood comes in. That is the first receiver I ever bought when I was 16. Center channel is blown, but everything else works. Temporary until I get a 2ch amp.

Temporary Atmos top speakers. They actually do a great job. I may buy another 4 pack of the Speakercraft LCR AIM3 Series 5 to go into the ceiling since everything is aimable.

Front 3 installed. Suds and a bad pre-wire I shouldn't have paid for made this difficult. Speakers are behind the screen so I'm not too upset about the need to surface mount the wiring. The speakers will eventually have back boxes once I get the time to get the measurements done.

You can see the last Atmos speaker and more of the stupid plates the moron that pre-wired put in to cover up the fact that he had to do the job twice because reading the plans I drew was too much of a hassle.

You can see two of the subs in their unfinished cabinets. I plan to do a roundover bit on all sides, install rubber isolation feet and paint them flat black.

Going to get some wall plates to tidy everything up. That is before all 15 wires were run.

A look at the LCR speakers that I put in for the side and back channels. Will probably use them for Atmos channels as well if I can't find the ones I want for a decent price. These will also eventually get back boxes built for them. I got my brother down to help and since he's done this I had to work with his schedule. Sides are at ear level, back are as low as I could in relation to back row of seating.

Got a TON of work left to do. Gotta clean up everything and put what stuff we had in the room for storage under the riser.

With all the plates my plan to paint the wall black is going out the window. I'll still paint all the grills black, but I plan to wallpaper the room in velvet to totally black it out. My HC4000 has a lot of light bleed so thiss will help with that. I'll paint the baseboards grey or something like that and get dark grey carpet put in. I'll also have them carpet the riser once I finish it up.

So far it sounds good. Gotta get Audyssey dialed in after the other two subs are done and will report back.

 

[TheWarrior]

It looks like you're tilting the PJ down anyway, for a lower image height. I'd think your image could be compromised by going even further off axis, nearer the ceiling?

 

[panteragstk]

It looks like you're tilting the PJ down anyway, for a lower image height. I'd think your image could be compromised by going even further off axis, nearer the ceiling?

It actually isn't tilted down. It has around a 19" offset since there is no lens shift to speak of. Add that to the mounted distance from the ceiling and the top of the image goes pretty far from the ceiling. It works fine though. We measured and there is no keystone. We didn't have to make any corrections. Image is nice and square.

Screen parts are on the way.

 

[panteragstk]

Ran Audyssey twice to get it to recognize both subs and set the levels/distance correctly. Nailed on pass 2. I have to be honest in saying that these Speakercraft speakers sound pretty amazing so far.